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JonShukhrat
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A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Af Updated on: 11 Jan 2020, 01:21
Originally posted by JonShukhrat on 10 Oct 2019, 04:38.
Last edited by JonShukhrat on 11 Jan 2020, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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ccheryn
JonShukhrat


2.
Quote:
Hi jon, i cant understand the link between usage of which and that vis a vis countable and uncountable noun. sorry for my naive knowledge, i wud have chosen unambiguously the noun supplies even if which are is present instead of that are , due to the usage of are (plural one). where am i wrong?

Sorry for that confusion. I wrote about which vs. that because one of the posts above suggested that that are should be replaced with which are. I just decided to share my thoughts on that, and I hope the author of that post doesn’t mind. This place is for sharing thoughts and learning from each other, all in all.

In short, if A looked like: …supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, which are important… then which would definitely refer to cobalt, not to metals or supplies. Hence, which are would be incorrect because cobalt is uncountable. We would need which is.
It’s impossible for which to jump over another inessential modifier in the middle. Most folks try cross off what is in between commas and glue the remaining part: …supplies of strategic metals , such as cobalt, which are important… But that’s incorrect.

Important: which can jump only over prepositional phrases if those phrases are noun modifiers. generis wrote about that a lot. You can also read RonPurewal here: https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... ml#p104933

3. I wasn’t rooting for any answer choice. However, D has the highest probability of being correct because the second appositive correctly modifies cobalt. It’s indeed cobalt what is important in producing high-performance steel.

B and D say that people are trying to get access to many or all types of strategic metals.
A,C, and E say that people are trying to get access only to those strategic metals that are important in making good steel. They aren’t interested in other types.

thanks jon, now it is turning into a cliche, but sorry no other words to express it,

in your single post i got 3 eternal take aways

first usage of appositives, now i am clear how to use appositives at the end and how it modifies only the noun nearby.

second usage of which that it cannot jump the modifiers in between

third, how the verb after the which turns into a important decision maker vis a vis noun it modifies earlier ( i will look for countable or uncountable from here on that too especially uncountable ending with s. such as acoustics classics logistics politics aerobics economics mathematics statistics aerodynamics electronics mechanics thermodynamics aeronautics genetics obstetrics athletics linguistics physics) .

its fun learning gmat, if somebody has a friend like u.
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Hi ccheryn,

it's great to see how you are doing progress. Make sure that your understanding is correct, though.

Quote:
first usage of appositives, now i am clear how to use appositives at the end and how it modifies only the noun nearby.
Show more

Please, pay attention to the wording I used: “…gives additional information about a noun or noun phrase standing before it.”
…a noun phrase standing before it doesn’t necessarily mean only the noun nearby, but means any noun standing somewhere before the appositive (not just in front of it).

Actually, appositive doesn’t always touch the noun it modifies. There is a good explanation from GMATNinja of this nuance: https://gmatclub.com/forum/in-a-d-391-r ... l#p2176017


Quote:
second usage of which that it cannot jump the modifiers in between
Show more

Once again, please be attentive to the wording used in rules and explanations. I wrote: “It’s impossible for which to jump over another inessential modifier in the middle.” That inessential is a key word here. So whenever you see an inessential modifier in between, be sure that which can’t jump over it. However, if the modifier is essential, there are two possible cases:

1. which can jump over a prepositional phrase and modify a noun (standing in front of that prep phrase), if that prep phrase is a noun modifier describing that noun. generis explains this condition by saying “essential mod trumps inessential mod”. For more info, see page 54 in All the Verbal MGMAT 7th edition (example with box of nails) and page 10 in All the Verbal Companion (example with a new CEO). Or in MGMAT SC guide 6th edition on pages 59, 60, and 167.

A couple of examples from official questions:

…she participated in the hearings on the impeachment of President Nixon, which were televised nationwide.

As you see, which were refers to hearings because logically hearings were televised. Here, prep phrase on the impeachment of President Nixon is a noun modifier that refers to hearings, so it gives additional information about hearings. What kind of hearings? The hearings on the impeachment of President Nixon. That’s why, which can jump over that prep phrase and touch hearings.

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington, which were written…

Similar situation here. to Susan Huntington is a prep phase and a noun modifier referring to letters. Therefore, which can touch letters.

Caveat: Which can’t jump over all prep phrases. An incorrect answer choice from official question:

The electronics company has unveiled what it claims is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world, which is as long as a handheld computer.

Here, which refers to world, not to camcorder. Even though in the world is a prep phrase, which can’t jump over it and touch camcorder. That’s because in the world is not a noun modifier referring to camcorder, but an adverbial modifier referring to verb is. That’s why this answer choice is incorrect. The correct answer removes this issue:

…is the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, which is as long as a handheld computer.

Another incorrect answer choice from another question:

…goods to non-industrialized countries rose to $167 billion in 1992, which is 14 percent more than the previous year…

Once again, which tries to jump over in 1992 (prep phrase) and touch $167 billion. However, that’s impossible because in 1992 is not a noun mod referring to $167 billion, but an adverbial mod referring to verb rose. In 1992 explains when goods rose – they rose in 1992, so it’s an adverbial mod. Therefore, this answer choice is incorrect. The correct answer choice removes which altogether and instead uses an appositive:

…goods to non-industrialized countries rose to $167 billion in 1992, an amount that is 14 percent higher than the previous year's figure.

2. Which can also jump over other essential mods acting as adjectives. Quite strangely, there is an official question in OG 2020 in whose correct answer choice "which" jumps over a verb. Crazy GMAT.
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A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Af 10 Oct 2019, 22:39
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Quote:

A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Africa is the ability of access or of block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are important in formulas for producing high-performance steel.


A) the ability of access or of block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are

B) the ability to access or block it to strategic metals, such as cobalt,

C) the ability of either having or blocking access to strategic metals supplies, such as cobalt, that are

D) either access or blocking access to strategic metals supplies, such as cobalt,

E) either to have or to block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are,
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Hello generis, Sorry for the tag but I just feel like asking this question so I will go ahead.
Let's say the option E, in reality, did not have a comma and was the wrong incorrect choice and all the other options remain as they are, what would you pick to be the most appropriate choice out of the remaining?

I am asking this question out of curiosity. So even if you give me a one liner reply that is fine too.

Thank you!
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A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Af 11 Oct 2019, 00:07
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Quote:

A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Africa is the ability of access or of block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are important in formulas for producing high-performance steel.


A) the ability of access or of block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are

B) the ability to access or block it to strategic metals, such as cobalt,

C) the ability of either having or blocking access to strategic metals supplies, such as cobalt, that are

D) either access or blocking access to strategic metals supplies, such as cobalt,

E) either to have or to block access to supplies of strategic metals, such as cobalt, that are,

Hello generis, Sorry for the tag but I just feel like asking this question so I will go ahead.
Let's say the option E, in reality, did not have a comma and was the wrong incorrect choice and all the other options remain as they are, what would you pick to be the most appropriate choice out of the remaining?

I am asking this question out of curiosity. So even if you give me a one liner reply that is fine too.

Thank you!
Show more
nightking , your question is interesting.

EDIT: (I should know better than to think I can still read a screen carefully in the middle of the night.)
If I could not choose E, I would choose D.
Options A and B are nonsensical and ungrammatical:
A) access/block. There is no such thing as "ability of access" or "ability of block" :x
B) access/it. With respect to "access," same as (A). "Ability of block it" is worse. Utter babble. Not grammatical. :x

Option C is unidiomatic, probably to such a degree that it is ungrammatical. Whatever is the case, (C) is bad, too:
(C) ability OF either having or blocking access. :x
-- A something or someone has the ability TO have or [to] block access to the minerals.

Without (E), my choice would be (D).
Option D has two major flaws.
First, without "that are," the last phrase becomes an appositive.
-- in a very strict technical sense the appositive would modify cobalt, but "such as" is also a weak form of apposition.
-- I would rationalize the strange apposition by saying that "such as" is a short intervening phrase that does not sever the connection between "important for . . ." and strategic metals supplies.
Second, the supplies are not important because they are supplies. The supplies are important because they are supplies of strategic metals. I would have to say that the appositive referred to the whole noun phrase.

Despite those two flaws, (D) is much better than the first three answers because it is much less nonsensical.
I am stretching to make (D) work. I can't make the other three work.

Generally, watch for "the ability" that we see in A, B, and C.
We don't need it. Options D and E are better without it.

This sort of sentence is common in spoken English: I want human resources to be able to institute an effective program
The speaker usually means: I want human resources to institute an effective program.
(There is no question that HR is capable, in other words. The speaker added unnecessary words.)

So without (E), I would choose (D).

Now, may I know why you ask? :)
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A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Af 11 Oct 2019, 06:35
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Hi ccheryn,

it's great to see how you are doing progress. Make sure that your understanding is correct, though.

Quote:
first usage of appositives, now i am clear how to use appositives at the end and how it modifies only the noun nearby.

Please, pay attention to the wording I used: “…gives additional information about a noun or noun phrase standing before it.”
…a noun phrase standing before it doesn’t necessarily mean only the noun nearby, but means any noun standing somewhere before the appositive (not just in front of it).

Actually, appositive doesn’t always touch the noun it modifies. There is a good explanation from GMATNinja of this nuance: https://gmatclub.com/forum/in-a-d-391-r ... l#p2176017


Quote:
second usage of which that it cannot jump the modifiers in between

Once again, please be attentive to the wording used in rules and explanations. I wrote: “It’s impossible for which to jump over another inessential modifier in the middle.” That inessential is a key word here. So whenever you see an inessential modifier in between, be sure that which can’t jump over it. However, if the modifier is essential, there are two possible cases:

1. which can jump over a prepositional phrase and modify a noun (standing in front of that prep phrase), if that prep phrase is a noun modifier describing that noun. generis explains this condition by saying “essential mod trumps inessential mod”. For more info, see page 54 in All the Verbal MGMAT 7th edition (example with box of nails) and page 10 in All the Verbal Companion (example with a new CEO). Or in MGMAT SC guide 6th edition on pages 59, 60, and 167.

A couple of examples from official questions:

…she participated in the hearings on the impeachment of President Nixon, which were televised nationwide.

As you see, which were refers to hearings because logically hearings were televised. Here, prep phrase on the impeachment of President Nixon is a noun modifier that refers to hearings, so it gives additional information about hearings. What kind of hearings? The hearings on the impeachment of President Nixon. That’s why, which can jump over that prep phrase and touch hearings.

Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington, which were written…

Similar situation here. to Susan Huntington is a prep phase and a noun modifier referring to letters. Therefore, which can touch letters.

Caveat: Which can’t jump over all prep phrases. An incorrect answer choice from official question:

The electronics company has unveiled what it claims is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world, which is as long as a handheld computer.

Here, which refers to world, not to camcorder. Even though in the world is a prep phrase, which can’t jump over it and touch camcorder. That’s because in the world is not a noun modifier referring to camcorder, but an adverbial modifier referring to verb is. That’s why this answer choice is incorrect. The correct answer removes this issue:

…is the world’s smallest network digital camcorder, which is as long as a handheld computer.

Another incorrect answer choice from another question:

…goods to non-industrialized countries rose to $167 billion in 1992, which is 14 percent more than the previous year…

Once again, which tries to jump over in 1992 (prep phrase) and touch $167 billion. However, that’s impossible because in 1992 is not a noun mod referring to $167 billion, but an adverbial mod referring to verb rose. In 1992 explains when goods rose – they rose in 1992, so it’s an adverbial mod. Therefore, this answer choice is incorrect. The correct answer choice removes which altogether and instead uses an appositive:

…goods to non-industrialized countries rose to $167 billion in 1992, an amount that is 14 percent higher than the previous year's figure.

2. Which can’t jump over any other essential mods.
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Hi JonShukhrat , i am feeing happy for missing a single word inessential before the modifier.. now i got clarified with still more concepts of caveats in the essential modifiers( bonus facts) . as usual you are awesome friend. Thanks for this also .

You know how i read your concepts as they are intense, i will read a single point( along with the blog links which u provide) then i will start reading some other portion in GMAT, i come back and revise your earlier concepts .. Then i go for next point..

Man your reply might look just 30 lines, but the stuff you insert invoke lots of constant questions back into my mind. Hence the delay in replying.. sorry for the delay.

after this post of yours .
1. I completely understood the modifying rules of which.. now i can play around when which comes into picture.. Thanks jon , thank you very much indeed.

2. In appositives, yeah i understood what you have told that it can modify the noun phrases touching it.
But my doubt here is

Appositives and absolute phrases look the same in structure. But Absolute phrases can modify the entire clause as adverbial modifiers. i really dont know how to differentiate both.

so i will explain my metacognition ( mental process when i see appositive/absolute- yeah i really dont know how to differentiate both as soon as i saw one)

1. first i look for whether it is modifying the previous noun or noun phrase,. if so i keep that as appositive.
2. if not then i look for whether it is modifying the entire clause . if so then i keep that as absolute phrase.

if any one of them clicks then i wont eliminate the option. or else i will eliminate the option.

Am i correct or wrong. ?

Advance thanks Bro. Thank you very much for your attitude Jon. i have to confess that i cant inherit this one from you. Definitely i dont have your patience nor have your helping nature .
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A primary objective of the rivalry between greet powers in Southern Af 09 Aug 2021, 06:59
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Hi generis can you please edit the E option and correct the placement of comma? The comma after THAT ARE is forcing us to eliminate the option. Thanks!
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