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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
ratsvijay wrote:
GMATNinja A lot has been said about conditionals here, and i got all the rules.
What i am not able to do that is identify XXX and YYY in the structure If XXX, then YYY

This is a good reminder that language is fluid - you don't want to be so rigid in your expectations that a simple structural change ruins your ability to tackle a question.

Typically, the If/then structure will contain the "if" clause first. For example, "If I forget to wear pants to the opera, my wife will pretend she does not know me." But it's perfectly legitimate to flip the order and write, "My wife will pretend she does not know me if I forget to wear pants to the opera."

The same is true in the OA for this question. The "then" clause comes first: "Workers cannot be laid off if they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe." This is, for all intents and purposes, the same as "If they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe, workers cannot be laid off."

The takeaway: do not try to memorize dozens and dozens of structures and then expect to see those structures in a form that resembles what you memorized! Yes, some rules are worth internalizing, but ultimately, you need to use context and logic, while remaining flexible enough to adapt to a variety of scenarios. Some related ideas can be found in this article.

I hope that helps!



Hi,
very helpful explanation. Just one follow up:

In the part "If they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe, workers cannot be laid off" can you point me to what the "then clause" is ?

Appreciaite the help. Many thanks.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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mk96 wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
ratsvijay wrote:
GMATNinja A lot has been said about conditionals here, and i got all the rules.
What i am not able to do that is identify XXX and YYY in the structure If XXX, then YYY

This is a good reminder that language is fluid - you don't want to be so rigid in your expectations that a simple structural change ruins your ability to tackle a question.

Typically, the If/then structure will contain the "if" clause first. For example, "If I forget to wear pants to the opera, my wife will pretend she does not know me." But it's perfectly legitimate to flip the order and write, "My wife will pretend she does not know me if I forget to wear pants to the opera."

The same is true in the OA for this question. The "then" clause comes first: "Workers cannot be laid off if they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe." This is, for all intents and purposes, the same as "If they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe, workers cannot be laid off."

The takeaway: do not try to memorize dozens and dozens of structures and then expect to see those structures in a form that resembles what you memorized! Yes, some rules are worth internalizing, but ultimately, you need to use context and logic, while remaining flexible enough to adapt to a variety of scenarios. Some related ideas can be found in this article.

I hope that helps!



Hi,
very helpful explanation. Just one follow up:

In the part "If they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe, workers cannot be laid off" can you point me to what the "then clause" is ?

Appreciaite the help. Many thanks.

The first part of the sentence gives you a condition: "If they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe..."

The second part gives an outcome if that condition is met: "workers cannot be laid off."

The second part is the "then" clause, because it tells us what would happen if the condition is met. Note: a "then clause" doesn't need the word "then" as long as the meaning of the sentence is clear without it.

I hope that helps!
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
I need little clarification on Conditional vs Hypothetical situation, and how can I identify those?

For example, If I were you, I would have completed the test. (It seems that this sentence is a conditional as well as a hypothetical).

So, how can I determine when to use Conditional or Hypothetical (Subjunctive mood)? Explanation with examples would be helpful.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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Soham68 wrote:
I need little clarification on Conditional vs Hypothetical situation, and how can I identify those?

For example, If I were you, I would have completed the test. (It seems that this sentence is a conditional as well as a hypothetical).

So, how can I determine when to use Conditional or Hypothetical (Subjunctive mood)? Explanation with examples would be helpful.

Oh no @Soham68; it is generally not an or relationship between Conditional or Hypothetical; as your example shows, Hypothetical can be (and in fact, in most cases are) conditionals.

On the other hand, not all conditionals are hypothetical. For example:

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) had long been expected to announce a reduction in output to bolster sagging oil prices, but officials of the organization just recently announced that the group will pare daily production by 1.5 million barrels by the beginning of next year only if non-OPEC nations, including Norway, Mexico, and Russia, trim output by a total of 500,000 barrels a day.


The above sentence is just a simple (non-hypothetical) conditional: If X happens, Y will happen.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses Subjunctive, its application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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OE:
Verb form; Idiom
This sentence asserts that a court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling. It
then goes on to explain the series of conditions stipulated by that ruling:
workers cannot be laid off if they have been given (prior) reason to
believe that continued satisfactory job performance will (always) ensure
that their jobs are safe. To express these complicated temporal
relationships, the present tense passive verb cannot be laid off describes
the assurance provided by the ruling; the present-perfect, passive verb
describes the prior condition have been given . . ., and the future tense
verb will be describes the outcome the workers can expect. The idiom
reason to believe succinctly describes the assurance given to workers.
A. Correct. The sequence of conditions makes sense, and the idiom is
correct.
B. The present tense are given fails to clarify that the assurance of job
security must precede the workers’ confidence that they cannot be
laid off. The phrase reason for believing (singular, with no article) is
unidiomatic and in this context is inappropriate.
C. This version appears to be presenting having been given reason . . .
as a restrictive modifier of laid off. This makes the sentence very
awkward and hard to make sense of, and it obscures the requisite
nature of the condition (that workers had been given prior reason to
think their jobs were safe). Reason for believing is unidiomatic.
D. Without a comma after off, it is unclear what having been given
reason . . . modifies; the string of infinitive phrases is awkward and
confusing.
E. As in (D), it is unclear what the participial phrase (in this case, given
reason to believe) is supposed to modify.
The correct answer is A.
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A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
"provided that performance remain satisfactory" is if-clause of the clause, "there jobs will be safe". this is why "would" in choice B is wrong.

Originally posted by thangvietnam on 13 Jul 2021, 07:34.
Last edited by thangvietnam on 09 Sep 2021, 02:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
Hey GMATNinja! could you please help me solve this question.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
Correct option : A

A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers cannot be laid off
if they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will
be safe, provided that their performance remains satisfactory.


Correct idiom : beleive that
Correct usage of "That" with Pronoun "Their" to Workers

(A) if they (have been given reason to believe that their jobs will
(B) if they are given reason for believing that their jobs would still
(C) having been given reason for believing that their jobs would
(D) having been given reason to believe their jobs to
(E) given reason to believe that their jobs will still
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
CrackVerbal Kindly post your answer explanation of the above question.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
DmitryFarber wrote:
To clarify my earlier post, we want to use "would" if there's a clear condition that we're describing and that conditional is described hypothetical:

If X happened, Y would also happen.
If you helped me, I would be grateful.
I would go to the party if there were a good band playing.


If we make a simple if-then statement, we don't use "would". Notice that the main difference in the "if" part is that we don't use a past form of the verb.

If X happens, Y will also happen.
If you help me, I will be grateful.
I will go to the party if there is a good band playing


So we don't want to use "would" in B because we're not using a hypothetical. We didn't say "if they were given reasons."


DmitryFarber
For "I would go to the party if there were a good band playing", in Word "were" comes up as incorrect/underlined.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
Hi experts,

I am struggling with @dmitryfarber's response below/the additional explanations on this thread. Can an expert kindly provide more examples? Subjunctive/would are tricky! Thank you for your help in advance.

Careful, vp101. The problem with B can't be "given reason," since that is used in A, too!

The issue is with "would," but this is a little tricky. For simpler clauses, it's easy: we don't use both "if" and "would" to mark the same hypothetical event. Rather, when using "if," we follow up with "would" to show the consequence:

If my car were stolen, I would be upset.

However, if our hypothetical/conditional has more than one action in it (as in the original Q), "would" may be appropriate:

If I thought that you would believe me, I'd tell you the whole story.

So what's the difference between this and the original? You might notice that here we're using what looks like past tense ("thought"), while in A and B we're using present perfect and present, respectively. Why the difference? My example is a hypothetical (subjunctive), while the original is a simple conditional. With conditionals, we don't even use "would" for the consequence:

If Karen's sandwich falls on the floor, she will still eat it. (It's a really good sandwich.)

Since the choices here are conditional and not subjunctive, we need to leave "would" out of the sentence entirely.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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woohoo921 wrote:
Hi experts,

I am struggling with @dmitryfarber's response below/the additional explanations on this thread. Can an expert kindly provide more examples? Subjunctive/would are tricky! Thank you for your help in advance.

Careful, vp101. The problem with B can't be "given reason," since that is used in A, too!

The issue is with "would," but this is a little tricky. For simpler clauses, it's easy: we don't use both "if" and "would" to mark the same hypothetical event. Rather, when using "if," we follow up with "would" to show the consequence:

If my car were stolen, I would be upset.

However, if our hypothetical/conditional has more than one action in it (as in the original Q), "would" may be appropriate:

If I thought that you would believe me, I'd tell you the whole story.

So what's the difference between this and the original? You might notice that here we're using what looks like past tense ("thought"), while in A and B we're using present perfect and present, respectively. Why the difference? My example is a hypothetical (subjunctive), while the original is a simple conditional. With conditionals, we don't even use "would" for the consequence:

If Karen's sandwich falls on the floor, she will still eat it. (It's a really good sandwich.)

Since the choices here are conditional and not subjunctive, we need to leave "would" out of the sentence entirely.


Hello woohoo921,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, another way to look at Option B is that it redundantly uses the helping verb "would" alongside the verb "believe"; remember, “will” is preferred for referring to events that are certain to happen, and “would” is preferred for referring to events that are hypothetical, meaning the use of “would” alongside verbs that express uncertainty (predict, assume, guess, etc.) is redundant.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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aksh123456123456 wrote:
CrackVerbal Kindly post your answer explanation of the above question.


Let’s look at the logic of the sentence.

A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers cannot be laid off if they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe, provided that their performance remains satisfactory.

The sentence says that if the workers have been given reason to believe that they will still have their jobs, they cannot be laid off. Here, very clearly, a condition and its consequences have been mentioned.

Let’s look at each option.

(A) if they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will

“have been given” is in the present perfect tense. This tense is used to say that something was done in the past, and this stands true even now. “they have been given reason to believe that their jobs will be safe” implies that this assurance was given in the past and still holds true today. The tense used accurately represents the situation.

(B) if they are given reason for believing that their jobs would still

The verb “are” implies that something is true right now. This usage implies that if the workers are given the assurance right now, then they cannot be laid off. This does not make any sense. Further, idiomatically, one would say that one is “given reason to believe.”

(C) having been given reason for believing that their jobs would

Logical analysis of the original sentence tells us that a condition has been presented. In this option, the conditional clause has been removed, and this changes the meaning of the sentence.

(D) having been given reason to believe their jobs to

Same as in Option C.

(E) given reason to believe that their jobs will still

Same as in Option C.

I hope this is clear.
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
Can someone explain usage of:
If....will
If....would
If...were
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
Can someone explain usage of:
If....will
If....would
If...were
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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Re: A recent court decision has qualified a 1998 ruling that workers canno [#permalink]
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