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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:01
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ncprasad
wow. The site has 14000 members. Assuming even 20% of the members used the VIP service, we are looking at close 3000 people or so. It will be interesting to see how many of these members ended up at the top schools. I see a lot of folks there who reported scores of 740, 760 etc. One would think that with scores like that, they would have made it to some of the best B-schools. This is going to be interesting to follow.
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Do you think something will come about this? Expulsion of some 1,000+ students? I doubt it. I bet that nearly nothing will come about and the punishment will be light, and much will be swept under the rug.

btw, I'm officially going to tell others that I've scored in the 99th percentile. I'm a zero admit, so this story makes me sick.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:04
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kidderek
The fact remains, at least according to the article, the people knew what they were paying for. End of story.
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But looking at the site Rhyme posted, and in their description of the VIP service here (https://web.archive.org/web/20061230063431/www.scoretop.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12066&PN=1) ScoreTop says that they DO NOT provide live questions. So I am not positive GMACs claim that they know what they were paying for could be substantiated?

On the other hand, they own the test, I guess they can do what they want?

~Sam
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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:15
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kidderek
The fact remains, at least according to the article, the people knew what they were paying for. End of story.

But looking at the site Rhyme posted, and in their description of the VIP service here (https://web.archive.org/web/20061230063431/www.scoretop.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12066&PN=1) ScoreTop says that they DO NOT provide live questions. So I am not positive GMACs claim that they know what they were paying for could be substantiated?

~Sam
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Honestly, I haven't even clicked on the link. Don't want any association with it. With that said, I think J Allen mentioned something about lip service. I can't imagine anyone going to that site w/o knowing what they were getting into. I know that's not enough to prove in a court of law, but in my book, they knew what they were doing.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:22
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I certainly understand the idea of lip service, but the VIP membership page makes NO mention of live questions, directly or indirectly.

All it discusses is the sets written by their in-house writers, and clearly states that those questions are property of ScoreTop and no copied from any other source...
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:22
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LOL. i hope those that got into top schools get expelled.
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rhyme
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:38
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I agree that scoretop said the questions were not real live questions, but if you do a few searches online you'll find that members often specifically bring up how the VIP service helped because they got "5 or 6" of the same questions on the exam. That seems pretty common in people's score reports on the site, and I suspect that people knew exactly what they were doing.

That doesn't mean that someone who didn't cheat - or who signed up without knowing that might be targeted by GMAC and end up getting kicked out - and certainly, I expect at least someone to sue as a result, but ... to me, its seems clear that people knew what was being offered in the VIP section.

Whether or not scoretop officially or unofficially condoned it, is another question -- but not one that really matters.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:44
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Okay I found the Korean (in China though) dude's post.:

"First time 660 (Q42, V39), second time 680 (Q43, V40), this time 750 (Q50, V41)

I am Korean. In Sep and Nov 2006, I took GMAT twice in Korea and got score 660 and 680. I was so depressed because I need a perfect score (≥700) to apply MBA from Korea.

In May 2007, I came to China for working reason and made many Chinese friends there. I was shocked by the fact that many of them scored 720 or even higher. Because of the language barrier, three months later I came to understand the reason: their ability in math is powerful , many people score 49-51 in math! Later, a friend told me to study the Chinese people’s GMAT Bible “JJ”. I was so confused but finally came to understand what is “JJ”.

Hundreds of Chinese take GMAT around the world every day. After the test, some people will write down the questions they met in the test as soon as possible and as much as possible to provide to others who will take the test soon. Yes! They are very united in TOEFL,GRE and GMAT! In China, it is call” You planted a tree for me to enjoy the cool, and I will plant another tree for the man behind me!”Chinese has EXPERIENCED GRE and GMAT for many years and they are now absolutely EXPERT in GRE and GMAT.

One of my close Chinese friends who got a score 780 last year told me a secret: In actual GMAT exam, there is a very large question POOL (about 40,000 -60,000 questions).each month about 1200 questions are regularly selected from the POOL, and then about 75 percent will be replaced next month. Then if there is one question in last month GMAT test, you still have a chance of 25% to face it this month and still about 6% next month.

The Most important is next!!

Since the GMAT question pool is the same all over the world each month, you get a chance about 6% to meet the same question I meet this month. OK, if 100 person each write down 10 questions he met in this month, then to each question (for example NO.966 of the monthly pool),the possibility it is included in the monthly “JJ” is :1- (1-10/1200) ^100≈56.88% !!!
Finally, he gave me the professional “JJ” from Jul 07-Dec 07 (AP)and Jan 08(C.Today, I meet 17 questions the same in the “JJ” above. Especially in my Math test, I meet 6 questions in the “JJ” (AP)and 6 in the “JJ” last month(C!! Of the 12 questions above, six is DS. Of course, I saved much time and passed the test easily.
I have asked a Chinese friend before why GMAC or ETS do not investigate Chinese? He surprised me: In Commonwealth of Nations, nobody dares to make “JJ” because the government or ETS is easy to survey and will cancel the maker’s MBA qualification. But in China, the government does not care much about that.
Now, I feel that although I benefited a lot from “JJ” i still feel so sorry...

In addition, very important: I have a specific statistics of GMAT scores (over 1,200 individual data analysis), but I can not affix it in this article or I am not good at computer??? If you are interested and write EMAIL to me, I will Email you. I have benefited much from here and I will do my best to help everybody!!
My email: DELETED

Btw, I wonder if the administrator can tell me how to upload a Excel statistics here??
At last, let us draw together to beat the gmat !!
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rhyme
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:46
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From the current scoretop site:

Quote:

If you are caught disclosing, accessing, or using "real" GMAT® questions:

* Your GMAT® scores will be cancelled.
* You will not be allowed to take the GMAT® exam again.
* Business schools will be notified.
* You may be subject to a civil lawsuit or criminal prosecution.
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Does anyone else find it disturbing that the word "real" is in quotation marks? Although, in this case, I think its obvious that cheating was in fact going on, what in the world constitutes a "real" question?
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navy01
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:49
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So although there are lots of questions, people are getting the same 1,200 question pool. And since a lot of people who are cheating are those aiming for 700+, I bet the number of repeat questions are much higher.

I think GMAC is going strictly for the VIP users because while the site "may" not have openly advertised that it had live questions, I wouldn't doubt that the actual post topics weren't about live questions. And unlike beatthegmat and gmatclub, who immediately delete the post and warn the user, the VIP members/admin just let it run. If you were honest, you would have reported the site to GMAC and I think that's where Bschools will have a problem. If you knew something was unethical and you didn't report it, then what does that say about your character.

I doubt we will see any fall out since this will probably drag on for months but I really, really hope these cheaters get caught and punished.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 12:50
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Good find. I had found references to "jj" and didn't know what that meant.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 13:02
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Wow. The lack of respect for intellectual property by the Chinese government astonishes me. At least this poster felt a little bit of remorse (but didn't seem to take action...just feel bad).

I agree. Those aiming at 700+ are likley to see more repeats because the pool of 700+ questions probably isn't all that large. If they have 1200 questions per month, they are probably banking on the percentages that not many people get 700+ so they don't need as many questions as some people will never see a 700+ level question because they get too many wrong at the beginning.

When I get into b-school, I'll have to make a conscious effort to be nice to Chinese students, but I will wonder in the back of my head if that student cheated to get a high score.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 13:04
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I've always suspected and have been vocal about GMAC's stupidity, from grading to number of different questions to their greed. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that allowing test takers to take up to 12 times a year plus limited number questions = easy to cheat.

This discovery adds credence to re-takers who claimed to have seen the same question on test #2 as they did on test #1.
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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 13:10
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navy01
Okay I found the Korean (in China though) dude's post.:

"First time 660 (Q42, V39), second time 680 (Q43, V40), this time 750 (Q50, V41)

I am Korean. In Sep and Nov 2006, I took GMAT twice in Korea and got score 660 and 680. I was so depressed because I need a perfect score (≥700) to apply MBA from Korea.
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This was posted in the "shared experience" section
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gmat blows
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 13:10
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I dont care much for these cheaters because at the end they're just hurting themselves (karma is a b*tch) and really, these kind of people are pretty transparent and their true colors/character will eventually surface; its easy to identify a true leader from a fluke - but my question is, how much do you think will this effect future test takers?

GMAT questions are a breed of its own. I'm FINALLY at a point where I'm feeling comfortable with the questions and the possible tricks they may throw at me. I'm worried that come test day, even a slight change in their question type will screw me (either throw me off guard, etc).
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 15:50
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I posted this on BW today since I cant post on gmatclub at work...I figured there would be a discussion on here but once again the level of discussion blows BW away. I was shocked at people trying to defend/justify people doing this. Hopefully no one on here actually used that site.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 15:57
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IP addresses are not enough proof to show that someone committed something. Ip addresses can be spoofed, proxied, and if in doubt, just piggy back off a hot spot. MAC addresses can also be spoofed. That`s why the credit card information is the best form of proof in cases like this.
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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 16:37
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riverripper
I posted this on BW today since I cant post on gmatclub at work...I figured there would be a discussion on here but once again the level of discussion blows BW away. I was shocked at people trying to defend/justify people doing this. Hopefully no one on here actually used that site.
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BW forum sucks
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sarzan
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 17:17
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So if I visit the closed down site today, will I get in trouble??

I actually never heard of this site.

As for the Korean dude talking about his wonderful experience with "JJ", I highly doubt that even their fake 7XX's on their GMATs will take them very far with the application process. By just getting a sense of his grasp of English, I would be very doubtful if his essays were any good.

Even if they hire writers to write their essays, the sheer number of the "JJ" cheaters would force these essays to end up stylistically homogeneous. I am confident that the top 20 schools would see through it. I would be more weary of the top 40 schools who might want to diversify their student body - they may be more forgiving with international applicants when it comes to their essays.

Fall 2008 will be an interesting application season to say the least - thousands of fired/resigned wall streeters and financials, a crusade on age from the business schools, and now this.
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 17:41
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So much trash on BW, on this thread for a day, 8 pages and that much of crap, that's why I'm not posting there anymore...

Regarding this Scoretop issue, It's totally different knowing actual GMAT questions before the test and practicing from "dead questions" in my point of view, because, if you know already the answer you will gain time, which is in my opinion the most important asset of GMAT. I remember that when I took Powerprep or GMATprep for the second time and I saw the same questions I took a couple of days before, and I knew the answer, or at least the wrong answers, and it was inevitable just skip it, now imagine someone doing it for real!

The thin line between doing right or wrong!

On Admission Consulting, everything depends on how ethical is the "service", and that's why Kroll is checking almost everybody these days. I know that with brazilians, the AdCom from every single Top school know the Consultants, so they (consulting guys) must be ethical, otherwise they will be fried. I used one, and in my case he/she helped me to find the right words, right preposition (I don't even know how to use some in my own language), but never I was told to change the history, or tell something differently from what I wanted to. But I believe there are those who have prepared histories, and once again Kroll will get to these guys...
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Another Cheating Scandal 24 Jun 2008, 17:56
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I kind of feel bad for Chinese GMATers who did NOT cheat and got in the 7XXs.
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