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Another Cheating Scandal

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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:01
kidderek,

not everyone is you and as intelligent - some of us pay for the material we want to use, and we also honestly assume that it's the right mateiral. you porbably used gmatclub, pr and something else, i used the same and beatgmat and in the end, as my story, scoretop - to me they were all similar sites. for me, paying isnt something "strange" like you make it to be - if i have to pay for a service, i pay it. in a case like this, i got screwed without my knowledge - and about "seeing the quesiton", well, i saw pretty much no quesiton as i went there for a full length test and it wasnt there. it's very nice to make very idealist comments and say everyone, regardless of what happened (or benefitted) should have their lives ruined, when you forget that every single forum had questions from various members and i can bet a lot of them, if you look closely, are not legitimate in GMACs eyes . Are you saying you closed your eyes to all of them and never read? by the same standard are all gmatclub members benefitting from improper posts in the math/verbal section? then are all those people guilty? someitmes you trust people and recommendations and you dont suspect everything single thing you see. i'm not advocating piracy, but the action must have some rationale and some intention needs to be proved...

what you saying is basically if i was member for 3 months, posted 1000 questions and debated in the forums, then it is the same as as if I got referred by mistake, did pretty much nothing, and walked away immediately. nice justice.

but u are so full of energy about this that i suppose you feel that is what it should be..

anyway i will let this forum know if possible what happens to me :(

kidderek wrote:
filmcity wrote:

But for the paid ones ( VIP section), there were different forums with restricted access! Now many might have registered themselves in haste, without looking at the feedbacks in net or even without realizing the forum admin's claim...then I don't know what will be the decision.


Yea, I'm one of the cheapos who never paid for any special feature of a website. And I never visited any other site besides gmatclub. I find it a little weird that all these test takers go to random websites to take practice tests. I prepared diligently, and efficiently which meant avoiding these bizarre websites where God-knows-who made the questions . I threw out the Kaplan book early in my prep and studied primarily from PR & MGMAT. When you sign up at some unheard of website and even drop a few bucks for it, I have to wonder whether there's more to it.

With that said, ALL scores of people who used that website should be voided. Knowingly, unknowingly, it doesn't make a difference. Whether the live questions were encountered on their test or not, people who saw those questions had a clear edge.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:05
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Ok here is the original complaint. Only cost me like $3 to get it. LOL.

Haven't read it through yet (have to actually do some work) but a quick glance makes it clear that people were discussing JJs in detail.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:09
$2,400 for a single question!
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:19
Hey, I feel for you, kind of. But don't misconstrue my words. I never said, paying for something is strange. Don't take my words out of context. And DO NOT obfuscate this argument by infusing piracy with plain old cheating. The two are separate arguments.

If you went through an entire practice exam and saw no "live" questions, then fine. Good for you, you have a case. I'm talking about anyone who saw even just ONE "live" question.

Lives ruined? I just said that the scores should be VOIDED. I didn't say anything of expulsion. Only those who are proved to have knowingly practiced w/"live" questions should be expelled.

What I'm saying is that it's a bit negligent for anyone to haphazardly go to random websites and plunk down cash for a practice test, when all knowledgeable test takers know that ONLY the GMATPrep and OG can even come close to emulating an actual gmat. Not PR, not MGMAT, NOTHING comes even remotely close to it, so why would you go to a random website and plunk down cash for a crappy practice exam?

I'm not perfect nor do I claim to be. I'm not standing on a high pedestal passing judgment on everyone. But hell, I busted my a$$ for that test. As have MANY on this forum. And we did it fair. That is why it infuriates me that my score as well as those who studied their butt off (successfully and not) has been watered down by a bunch of cheaters.

Read the shared experience section (successful and not) and you might get a sense of what I'm talking about.

marg75 wrote:
kidderek,

not everyone is you and as intelligent - some of us pay for the material we want to use, and we also honestly assume that it's the right mateiral. you porbably used gmatclub, pr and something else, i used the same and beatgmat and in the end, as my story, scoretop - to me they were all similar sites. for me, paying isnt something "strange" like you make it to be - if i have to pay for a service, i pay it. in a case like this, i got screwed without my knowledge - and about "seeing the quesiton", well, i saw pretty much no quesiton as i went there for a full length test and it wasnt there. it's very nice to make very idealist comments and say everyone, regardless of what happened (or benefitted) should have their lives ruined, when you forget that every single forum had questions from various members and i can bet a lot of them, if you look closely, are not legitimate in GMACs eyes . Are you saying you closed your eyes to all of them and never read? by the same standard are all gmatclub members benefitting from improper posts in the math/verbal section? then are all those people guilty? someitmes you trust people and recommendations and you dont suspect everything single thing you see. i'm not advocating piracy, but the action must have some rationale and some intention needs to be proved...

what you saying is basically if i was member for 3 months, posted 1000 questions and debated in the forums, then it is the same as as if I got referred by mistake, did pretty much nothing, and walked away immediately. nice justice.

but u are so full of energy about this that i suppose you feel that is what it should be..

anyway i will let this forum know if possible what happens to me :(

kidderek wrote:
filmcity wrote:

But for the paid ones ( VIP section), there were different forums with restricted access! Now many might have registered themselves in haste, without looking at the feedbacks in net or even without realizing the forum admin's claim...then I don't know what will be the decision.


Yea, I'm one of the cheapos who never paid for any special feature of a website. And I never visited any other site besides gmatclub. I find it a little weird that all these test takers go to random websites to take practice tests. I prepared diligently, and efficiently which meant avoiding these bizarre websites where God-knows-who made the questions . I threw out the Kaplan book early in my prep and studied primarily from PR & MGMAT. When you sign up at some unheard of website and even drop a few bucks for it, I have to wonder whether there's more to it.

With that said, ALL scores of people who used that website should be voided. Knowingly, unknowingly, it doesn't make a difference. Whether the live questions were encountered on their test or not, people who saw those questions had a clear edge.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:26
kid:

Quote:
Not PR, not MGMAT, NOTHING comes even remotely close to it, so why would you go to a random website and plunk down cash for a crappy practice exam?


In that case- do you not recommend that GMATclubs practice questions? I
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:28
dosa_don wrote:
kid:

Quote:
Not PR, not MGMAT, NOTHING comes even remotely close to it, so why would you go to a random website and plunk down cash for a crappy practice exam?


In that case- do you not recommend that GMATclubs practice questions? I



Can't comment. I never used them. :lol:
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:28
rhyme wrote:
Ok here is the original complaint. Only cost me like $3 to get it. LOL.

Haven't read it through yet (have to actually do some work) but a quick glance makes it clear that people were discussing JJs in detail.


$3 = 3 kudos sent your way rhyme!
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:30
I did not either but just found it amusing to give you a hard time. ;)

I think there are some copyright issues as well- scoretop tops 1000SC, 1000RC and 1000CR documents contained questions from the OG- does that mean the users of those documents did something unethical/illegal? Those documents were probably used by almost everyone.


kidderek wrote:
dosa_don wrote:
kid:

Quote:
Not PR, not MGMAT, NOTHING comes even remotely close to it, so why would you go to a random website and plunk down cash for a crappy practice exam?


In that case- do you not recommend that GMATclubs practice questions? I



Can't comment. I never used them. :lol:
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:37
kidderek,

see, that's the painful thing, i did not go through any practice exam. there was NO practice exam! i got in, saw there was no practice exam that i thot it wud be, and left. that was end of story. no practices, no jugles juice or whatever, nothing. i was not even aware there were things wrong with the place. i did not return (remember i had exam same day, i just wanted 1 warm up practice :) )

sometimes there is no deep hidden meaning in some actions, you just become a unknowin party. think of it this way for a moment, it is sort of like getting a reccomndation from someone else to for e.g. gmatclub, you come, you see and you dont always spend hours trying to find legal aspects of everything.

as i said, i'm not excusing piracy, but i want to put my view too, because my case is an example of how things can go wrong without any deep intention as well!

kidderek wrote:
Hey, I feel for you, kind of. But don't misconstrue my words. I never said, paying for something is strange. Don't take my words out of context. And DO NOT obfuscate this argument by infusing piracy with plain old cheating. The two are separate arguments.

If you went through an entire practice exam and saw no "live" questions, then fine. Good for you, you have a case. I'm talking about anyone who saw even just ONE "live" question.

Lives ruined? I just said that the scores should be VOIDED. I didn't say anything of expulsion. Only those who are proved to have knowingly practiced w/"live" questions should be expelled.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:38
While the 1000 docs came from topscore, I don't think GMAC is going to fry that big of a fish. I think they will try and fry all the VIP members, starting with those who posted live question or replied to them. After that they'll go for everyone else who registered and paid money for the VIP. I just don't know where they will draw the line and say "okay you didn't benefit, you didn't know" to "you were trying, whether successful or not, to cheat."
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:39
rhyme wrote:
Ok here is the original complaint. Only cost me like $3 to get it. LOL.

Haven't read it through yet (have to actually do some work) but a quick glance makes it clear that people were discussing JJs in detail.


thanks rhyme..looked at it. what can i say? clueless.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:40
all I will add is that this will be very messy and the BSchools will have to ensure they get the appopriate legal advice before they start taking drastic steps (like throwing students out, etc)
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:42
dosa brings up a good point(shocking, i know!). In fact, I posted yesterday that the 1000 SC/CR/RC documents may be contaminated by real GMAT questions since these orignated from ScoreTop. I did not want to open this pandora's box and deleted my post. But now that dosa has brought this up, does this mean anyone who used it, which is practically everyone, be punished? Look, a lot of people desperate for good scores tend to gather a huge mountain of study materials/practice tests, perhaps believing that more material/tests equates to greater score. I can see these people giving a few bucks for a ton of practice questions on scoretop. I think there is a lot of room for innocent by-standers, so to speak, to be devastated by this. In my mind, registering or even paying doesn't necessarily mean guilty.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:42
dosa_don wrote:
I did not either but just found it amusing to give you a hard time. ;)

I think there are some copyright issues as well- scoretop tops 1000SC, 1000RC and 1000CR documents contained questions from the OG- does that mean the users of those documents did something unethical/illegal? Those documents were probably used by almost everyone.


haha I know.

As for the 1000 series, I have no clue where the questions come from. I don't think anyone has a definitive answer. But even those questions are not well written. And some of the answers are plainly incorrect.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:44
Sorry for the confusion. I really wouldn't worry in your scenario. If you're innocent, you will be okay.

marg75 wrote:
kidderek,

see, that's the painful thing, i did not go through any practice exam. there was NO practice exam! i got in, saw there was no practice exam that i thot it wud be, and left. that was end of story. no practices, no jugles juice or whatever, nothing. i was not even aware there were things wrong with the place. i did not return (remember i had exam same day, i just wanted 1 warm up practice :) )

sometimes there is no deep hidden meaning in some actions, you just become a unknowin party. think of it this way for a moment, it is sort of like getting a reccomndation from someone else to for e.g. gmatclub, you come, you see and you dont always spend hours trying to find legal aspects of everything.

as i said, i'm not excusing piracy, but i want to put my view too, because my case is an example of how things can go wrong without any deep intention as well!

kidderek wrote:
Hey, I feel for you, kind of. But don't misconstrue my words. I never said, paying for something is strange. Don't take my words out of context. And DO NOT obfuscate this argument by infusing piracy with plain old cheating. The two are separate arguments.

If you went through an entire practice exam and saw no "live" questions, then fine. Good for you, you have a case. I'm talking about anyone who saw even just ONE "live" question.

Lives ruined? I just said that the scores should be VOIDED. I didn't say anything of expulsion. Only those who are proved to have knowingly practiced w/"live" questions should be expelled.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:44
I notified GMAC two years ago that I had seen live questions on a website (not scoretop). You would think that GMAC would be more on the ball if it cost $2,400 to produce each question. People eager for practice questions will visit websites such as 800score, gmatclub, scoretop, and bellcurves and even pay for questions without knowing that they are live.
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:45
I dont think that is the issue ... the quality is whatever it is. The more pertinent issue is how can you even possibly track those who used the 1000 series? Where will you draw the line on this?

kidderek wrote:
dosa_don wrote:
I did not either but just found it amusing to give you a hard time. ;)

I think there are some copyright issues as well- scoretop tops 1000SC, 1000RC and 1000CR documents contained questions from the OG- does that mean the users of those documents did something unethical/illegal? Those documents were probably used by almost everyone.


haha I know.

As for the 1000 series, I have no clue where the questions come from. I don't think anyone has a definitive answer. But even those questions are not well written. And some of the answers are plainly incorrect.

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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:49
ncprasad wrote:
dosa brings up a good point(shocking, i know!). In fact, I posted yesterday that the 1000 SC/CR/RC documents may be contaminated by real GMAT questions since these orignated from ScoreTop. I did not want to open this pandora's box and deleted my post. But now that dosa has brought this up, does this mean anyone who used it, which is practically everyone, be punished? Look, a lot of people desperate for good scores tend to gather a huge mountain of study materials/practice tests, perhaps believing that more material/tests equates to greater score. I can see these people giving a few bucks for a ton of practice questions on scoretop. I think there is a lot of room for innocent by-standers, so to speak, to be devastated by this. In my mind, registering or even paying doesn't necessarily mean guilty.


Is it a fact that the 1000 series came from Scoretop? I wouldn't be surprised if it had old GMAT questions in it. I seriously doubt it, because I found myself arguing with a handful of questions every page. Also, hasn't the 1000 series been around a long time?
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:51
1st thing after this broke, I downloaded the RC 1000 document. See what it says on the page footer. For discussions go to <some scoretop URL> or something similar.

kidderek wrote:
ncprasad wrote:
dosa brings up a good point(shocking, i know!). In fact, I posted yesterday that the 1000 SC/CR/RC documents may be contaminated by real GMAT questions since these orignated from ScoreTop. I did not want to open this pandora's box and deleted my post. But now that dosa has brought this up, does this mean anyone who used it, which is practically everyone, be punished? Look, a lot of people desperate for good scores tend to gather a huge mountain of study materials/practice tests, perhaps believing that more material/tests equates to greater score. I can see these people giving a few bucks for a ton of practice questions on scoretop. I think there is a lot of room for innocent by-standers, so to speak, to be devastated by this. In my mind, registering or even paying doesn't necessarily mean guilty.


Is it a fact that the 1000 series came from Scoretop? I wouldn't be surprised if it had old GMAT questions in it. I seriously doubt it, because I found myself arguing with a handful of questions every page. Also, hasn't the 1000 series been around a long time?
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New post 25 Jun 2008, 07:53
oh man ... this wont be good for possibly 1000's of people which is precisely why the only action taken might be limited to site proprietor and VIP members.

ncprasad wrote:
1st thing after this broke, I downloaded the RC 1000 document. See what it says on the page footer. For discussions go to <some scoretop URL> or something similar.

kidderek wrote:
ncprasad wrote:
dosa brings up a good point(shocking, i know!). In fact, I posted yesterday that the 1000 SC/CR/RC documents may be contaminated by real GMAT questions since these orignated from ScoreTop. I did not want to open this pandora's box and deleted my post. But now that dosa has brought this up, does this mean anyone who used it, which is practically everyone, be punished? Look, a lot of people desperate for good scores tend to gather a huge mountain of study materials/practice tests, perhaps believing that more material/tests equates to greater score. I can see these people giving a few bucks for a ton of practice questions on scoretop. I think there is a lot of room for innocent by-standers, so to speak, to be devastated by this. In my mind, registering or even paying doesn't necessarily mean guilty.


Is it a fact that the 1000 series came from Scoretop? I wouldn't be surprised if it had old GMAT questions in it. I seriously doubt it, because I found myself arguing with a handful of questions every page. Also, hasn't the 1000 series been around a long time?

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Re: Another Cheating Scandal &nbs [#permalink] 25 Jun 2008, 07:53

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