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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 07:54
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You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy wesbite.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?

ncprasad
1st thing after this broke, I downloaded the RC 1000 document. See what it says on the page footer. For discussions go to <some scoretop URL> or something similar.

kidderek
ncprasad
dosa brings up a good point(shocking, i know!). In fact, I posted yesterday that the 1000 SC/CR/RC documents may be contaminated by real GMAT questions since these orignated from ScoreTop. I did not want to open this pandora's box and deleted my post. But now that dosa has brought this up, does this mean anyone who used it, which is practically everyone, be punished? Look, a lot of people desperate for good scores tend to gather a huge mountain of study materials/practice tests, perhaps believing that more material/tests equates to greater score. I can see these people giving a few bucks for a ton of practice questions on scoretop. I think there is a lot of room for innocent by-standers, so to speak, to be devastated by this. In my mind, registering or even paying doesn't necessarily mean guilty.

Is it a fact that the 1000 series came from Scoretop? I wouldn't be surprised if it had old GMAT questions in it. I seriously doubt it, because I found myself arguing with a handful of questions every page. Also, hasn't the 1000 series been around a long time?
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 07:55
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This might be amusing to the desi brethren- will this qualify as a "GMAT paper" leak? ;)

IIT, IIM, and all the state papers have leaked before but I remember that in most of those cases, the guys causing the leak were prosecuted, not the actual "purchasers".
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 07:56
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I think it is just a collection of questions from a lot of sources, including the OG.

Quote:
You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy wesbite.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 07:57
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although this is isnt quite the same since entire papers were never leaked .. but yeah interesting quagmire here.

I remember some really big leaks in India which caused massive logistical problems with delayed exams, delayed degree conferrals,etc

dosa_don
This might be amusing to the desi brethren- will this qualify as a "GMAT paper" leak? ;)

IIT, IIM, and all the state papers have leaked before but I remember that in most of those cases, the guys causing the leak were prosecuted, not the actual "purchasers".
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 07:58
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That's my guess as well.

dosa_don
I think it is just a collection of questions from a lot of sources, including the OG.

Quote:
You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy website.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?
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I am not aware of the efficiency of the judicial system but does it usually take a year to arrive at a decision after filing the complaint?
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dosa_don
I am not aware of the efficiency of the judicial system but does it usually take a year to arrive at a decision after filing the complaint?
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Depending on how slick the lawyers are, it could take a year just to begin the court proceedings.
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kevincan
$2,400 for a single question!
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Jeeesh, I wonder how much it would cost if test takers weren't used as guinea pigs with the experimental questions?
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Another Cheating Scandal Updated on: 25 Jun 2008, 11:54
Originally posted by filmcity on 25 Jun 2008, 08:03.
Last edited by filmcity on 25 Jun 2008, 11:54, edited 2 times in total.
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kidderek
You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy wesbite.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?

Show more

Is it possible to know what a "crappy" website and non-crappy ( or "bizarre" or non-bizarre)?

I am another cheapo who did not pay anything and felt lurking around the free forums with Gmatprep , Kaplan and free online PR test is enough.

I found all the free forums ( gmatclub, scoretop, sentencecorrection, testmagic) through google and all of them seemed to be SIMILAR to me ( admins under screennames, users under usernames, all discussing the same questions, yes every forum discusses the SAME questions). So how a person distinguishes which one is crappy or not?
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 08:09
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Looks like GMAC is busy going after these guys:

GRADUATE MANAGEMENT ADMISSION COUNCIL v. SAXENA filed March 2, 2007

And also:
Graduate Management Admission Council v. Lei Shi et al

This one is not copyright infringement but rather, Other Statutes - Other Statutory Actions
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filmcity
kidderek
You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy wesbite.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?

Is it possible to know what a "crappy" website and non-crappy ( or "bizarre" or non-bizarre)?

I am another cheapo who did not pay anything and felt lurking around the free forums with Gmatprep , Kaplan and free online PR test is enough.

I found all the free forums ( gmatclub, scoretop, sentencecorrection, testmagic) through google and all of them were SIMILAR to me ( admins under screennames, users under usernames, all discussing the same questions, yes every forum discusses the SAME questions). So how a person distinguishes which one is crappy or not?
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I don't know. It's not an exact science. You can just tell by the layout, number of users, the way users are treated, etc. Honestly, I guess I lucked out. I found gmatclub pretty early and had no need to look elsewhere.

I've heard of testmagic when I googled gmat scores for splits, but not much beyond that. I've been on beatthegmat, and while it's a nice site, there just aren't enough members.
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 08:22
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There are plenty of sites with an advertisement similar to ScoreTop (which can be found via the WayBack Machine) that talk up their own in-house questions (this site is just one example). Individuals who pay for the service, expecting to find sample questions written by in-house writers, could get really burned by this.

And because the ad makes no mention of "live" questions (regardless of what could be found digging around the experience recounts, or google), I don't really think GMAC will cancel a wide array of scores. I think they will try to hunt down posters who posted questions, but other than that, I think they would have to difficult of a time proving intent to cheat if people brought the issue to suit, which I imagine would happen to people whose scores were cancelled.

From the current GMAC owned ScoreTop site -

Quote:
In other words:
* Do not purchase, request, or share materials that claim to be “real” GMAT® questions in any form.
* Do not download GMATPrep® software from anywhere but https://www.mba.com, where authorized GMATPrep® software is available for free.
* Do not request or distribute pirated software or books such as the GMAT® Paper Tests, GMAT FocusTM or the Official GMAT® Guide.
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I don't think paying for the advertisement that was on the site constitutes any of these things. Certainly not in the case of Marg above...

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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 08:29
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filmcity - you can't really make out the difference, that is the problem. i paid for material in 2 sites, OG, mgmat, kaplan and pr, turns out 1 of them was doing illegal thngs.

i think after all this discussions we are coming to know of the confusing, difficult problem this is, it's not as simple as "they shud have know that scoretop has cheating questions", many people simply dont know. just like we're seeing the confusion with he 1000 series thing, no one is really sure.

sam - true, i just registered and paid. did not download gmat prep from there, did not request/post or distribute anything, and dint request anything on their site. did not even know anything about "real" gmat, i doubt they advertised (anyway i dint go by advertise, went by some guy referring it to as a good site with a good test, that's it).


anyway, i've cribbed enough, my misery is to me, we'll see how it all ends. i am fine with them contacting me at least so i can show proof of my visit dates, which was just some time (some minutes trying to find my exam) on a single day. but if they act without even checking facts then that would be a sorrow.

filmcity
kidderek
You know, that sounds eerily familiar. I completely ignored it (scouts honor), mainly b/c I never heard of it and didn't care to go to yet another crappy wesbite.

Could the 1000 series be the original, or dated JJs?


Is it possible to know what a "crappy" website and non-crappy ( or "bizarre" or non-bizarre)?

I am another cheapo who did not pay anything and felt lurking around the free forums with Gmatprep , Kaplan and free online PR test is enough.

I found all the free forums ( gmatclub, scoretop, sentencecorrection, testmagic) through google and all of them were SIMILAR to me ( admins under screennames, users under usernames, all discussing the same questions, yes every forum discusses the SAME questions). So how a person distinguishes which one is crappy or not?
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 08:34
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Cool! Thanks Dosa. I did not know about that.

I can see myself wasting a lot of time there.

dosa_don
YJ: I think he got it from alexa.com

yellowjacket
Don't know how long this process will take though. I would guess it will take GMAC sometime to verify to some degree that they've caught the right people. If they are going to cancel people's scores and let the schools know (and in my opinion, schools will take action based on this information), I would hope they take some time and confirm they've caught the right people.

I agree with the opinion over here that anyone who used scoretop deserves whatever happens, but it's also important to find the right people.

river, I noticed some statistics that you had put on the BW forums around where the users of the website originated from. Where did you get that information?
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 08:59
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I'm not a lawyer -- any other documents worth getting?

Doc.
No. Dates Description
33
Filed: 03/13/2008
Entered: 03/14/2008
Docket Text Mail Returned
32
Filed & Entered: 02/13/2008
Docket Text Mail Returned
31
Filed: 02/12/2008
Entered: 02/13/2008
Docket Text Order on Motion for Reconsideration
30
Filed: 02/05/2008
Entered: 02/07/2008
Docket Text Mail Returned
28
Filed & Entered: 01/11/2008
Terminated: 02/12/2008
Docket Text Motion for Reconsideration
29
Filed & Entered: 01/11/2008
Docket Text Memorandum in Support
25
Filed: 01/07/2008
Entered: 01/09/2008
Docket Text Memorandum & Opinion
26
Filed: 01/07/2008
Entered: 01/09/2008
Docket Text Order on Motion for Default Judgment
27
Filed: 01/07/2008
Entered: 01/09/2008
Docket Text Default Judgment
24
Filed & Entered: 12/21/2007
Docket Text Objection to Report and Recommendations
23
Filed: 12/11/2007
Entered: 12/12/2007
Terminated: 01/07/2008
Docket Text Report and Recommendations
22
Filed & Entered: 11/21/2007
Docket Text Certificate of Service
21
Filed & Entered: 11/20/2007
Docket Text Memorandum in Support
20
Filed & Entered: 11/19/2007
Docket Text Motion Hearing
17
Filed & Entered: 11/09/2007
Terminated: 01/07/2008
Docket Text Motion for Default Judgment
18
Filed & Entered: 11/09/2007
Docket Text Memorandum in Support
19
Filed & Entered: 11/09/2007
Docket Text Notice of Hearing Date
16
Filed: 10/09/2007
Entered: 10/11/2007
Docket Text Order
14
Filed & Entered: 10/04/2007
Docket Text Clerk's Entry of Default
15
Filed: 10/03/2007
Entered: 10/09/2007
Docket Text Order
13
Filed & Entered: 10/01/2007
Docket Text Affidavit
12
Filed: 09/19/2007
Entered: 09/20/2007
Docket Text Order for Pro hac vice
11
Filed & Entered: 09/18/2007
Docket Text Affidavit
6
Filed & Entered: 09/14/2007
Terminated: 01/07/2008
Docket Text Request for Entry of Default
7
Filed & Entered: 09/14/2007
Terminated: 01/07/2008
Docket Text Motion for Discovery
8
Filed & Entered: 09/14/2007
Docket Text Memorandum in Support
9
Filed & Entered: 09/14/2007
Terminated: 10/03/2007
Docket Text Motion to Continue
10
Filed & Entered: 09/14/2007
Docket Text Memorandum in Support
5
Filed & Entered: 09/06/2007
Docket Text Order
4
Filed & Entered: 08/10/2007
Docket Text Summons Returned Executed
1
Filed: 06/21/2007
Entered: 06/22/2007
Docket Text Complaint
2
Filed: 06/21/2007
Entered: 06/22/2007
Docket Text Financial Disclosure Statement
3
Filed: 06/21/2007
Entered: 06/22/2007
Docket Text Summons Issued
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 09:02
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Here is an opinion and response from a while back - it looks like the final opinion stuff isn't online yet.
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response.pdf [131.77 KiB]
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op1.pdf [412.88 KiB]
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 09:06
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Damn Rhyme! You're putting up documents faster than I can read them.

Haven't you started your internship yet? Shouldn't you be working? :lol:
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 09:12
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tut ... too many questions let the many spread knowledge

yellowjacket
Damn Rhyme! You're putting up documents faster than I can read them.

Haven't you started your internship yet? Shouldn't you be working? :lol:
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 09:16
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Taking a break.

Lots of super interesting stuff in the opinion piece:

"Chavez v. Johnson. 335 S.E.2d 97, 102 (Va. 1985) Plaintiff has failed to identify a single individual, other than the defendant himself, who sat for the exam, accepted the non
disclosure obligation, and subsequently breached that obligation.
Invoking the contractual obligations of an unknown number of
unidentified former test-takers, some of whom may have posted
infringing material on the <www.scoretop.com> website, is far too vague and conclusory to sustain this claim."

In other words, and this is the part people will care about - they were not able to identify even ONE of the posters. Whether or not this has changed remains to be seen, but I'm willing to bet it hasn't.

The opinion goes on to say:

"Recognizing its discretion in fashioning the scope of an
injunction, see Virginia Soc'v for Human Life. Inc. v. Federal
Election Comm'n. 263 F.3d 379, 392 (4th Cir. 2001), the Court
finds that plaintiff's requests are overbroad and will overrule
the objection. First, the specified documents and files contain
thousands of practice GMAT questions. Plaintiff has only
established defendant's unlawful distribution of 494 questions.
On this record, the Court has no factual basis upon which to
conclude that all the content in the requested documents infringe
on plaintiff's copyrights. Some questions may have been
legitimately created or acquired by the defendant. Accordingly,
the Court will not order the destruction of the requested
documents."

and

"Second, the Court will not order the defendant to transmit
his computers, hard drives, and other electronic devices for
inspection and, if GMAC so determines, disposal. Such devices
may serve other legitimate business purposes, or they may contain
private or proprietary information unrelated to this case.
Rather, the Court will adopt the language of the injunction in
Raju, 267 F. Supp. 2d at 507, which is sufficiently broad to
remedy any ongoing injury to plaintiff."

We need to find the updated opinion!!!

We also find out how many questions were infringing. Apparently, 494.

Also interesting is that the judge finds that the actions could not have been so serious as they claimed:

"Plaintiff's prosecution of this action also undermines its
position. After "a lengthy, multi-year investigation of the
activities" on the <www.scoretop.com> website, plaintiff filed
its complaint on June 21, 2007. Burgoyne Decl. H 3. Meanwhile,
the website's operations have continued to this day. If the
defendant's conduct truly threatened the sanctity of the GMAT
examination process, plaintiff should have filed a prompt request
for a temporary restraining order or preliminary injunctive
relief."
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Another Cheating Scandal 25 Jun 2008, 09:19
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Ok I couldn't help myself....

The opinion I posted above basically says that GMAC did NOT get the hard drives and that the total given to GMAC was 2.35 million. Unless there's been an update since, thats the end of this.

So.... I went ahead and got the next order on reconsideration.

Reading now!
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orderonreconsideration.pdf [212.25 KiB]
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