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flapjack
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Any of you consider law school instead? 06 Apr 2007, 12:36
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pelihu
I think another reason why you find miserable lawyers is because big firm lawyers have few options if they are unhappy with their careers. A lot of lawyers dream of moving into an in-house legal role, but it's unusual for lawyers to move into a normal management role. I have heard from friends that recruiters at big companies don't know what to do with someone with a JD degree. Also, I believe that many managers are wary of hiring someone that was recently making $175k per year for a job that's budgeted for $90k per year. Even if the lawyer is enthusiastic about the opportunity, the hiring manager might not be interested in bringing in someone that was making as much or more than them.

MBA students have more flexibility of course. I think a very common career plan for MBA grads is to go into IB or MC for a few years to make a wad of cash, and then to move onto a different type of role. The MBA is the standard degree for consulting & banking as well as marketing, management and a host of other job tracks.

With an MBA, if you hate your job there are thousands of companies that regularly hire people like you. If you have a JD and you hate being a lawyer, there are maybe a few dozen firms (like Goldman & McKinsey) that regularly hire JDs to fill their business & management type roles. Your options are much more limited and the competition is incredible; the majority of companies to don't know what to do with a JD or aren't willing to deal with the hassle of hiring someone with that background. So, lawyers to keep on being lawyers even if they are miserable.
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pelihu, you hit the nail on the head. I know many lwayers who feel trapped in their firm jobs but don't know what else to do. My litigator friends can't go in-house because they don't want to take a 50% pay cut, so they continue working at big firms even though they don't really enjoy it and frequently complain about how much they hate it.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 06 Apr 2007, 15:42
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As a retired attorney I'll chime in here, but it really is just reiterating some of the other posts.

I went to law school because I was graduating with a degree in American history and didn't know what I wanted to do. I practiced for 2 years at a boutique litigation firm and the hours were fine and pay ok, but I found the work extremely boring. As a result, I moved to Japan and found a job with a company that provides various solutions for law and professional service firms.

I think pelihu is right on the money about lawyers feeling trapped. I think the JD is a great degree and I'm glad I have one, but most companies do not know what to do with you. When I graduated I tried to get a job in IB, but that just doesn't happen very often.

Overall my law school expierence was great, but I wish there was a cheaper less time consuming way to get that expierence.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 13 Apr 2007, 09:25
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I am compelled to post this..
Yale Univ. Undergraduate GPA 25th-75th%tile: 3.83-3.97 LSAT 25th-75th%tile: 170-176.

This is crazy!! 25% of yale law students scored 177 or higher?????
and 25% of them has 3.98 or higher? yikes!!
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Any of you consider law school instead? 13 Apr 2007, 09:40
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I think what's even more scary is that 75% had GPAs of over 3.83! And the acceptance rate was just 6.8%.

There's no doubt that from an academic standpoint, the top law schools are much more difficult to get into that the top business schools. The real difference is that business schools throw in work experience as a key factor, and put weight on essays and extracurriculars. For law school, it's pretty much all about the numbers.

I think the difference for the admissions process is that law school is much more predictable - you can look at LSAT & GPA and make a very accurate guess. GMAT & GPA are important for business school, but it's much more difficult to weigh work experience and essays so I think the waiting process is more stressful.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 13 Apr 2007, 10:18
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Indeed.


I know that I cannot score 170+ on the LSAT no matter how much I would try. Even if I were a native speaker, i don't think I can score 177+.
you gotta respect their brain power. :lol:
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Any of you consider law school instead? 13 Apr 2007, 12:00
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I'm not sure if there's a simple way of quantifying it, but what is the number of MBA/MD/JD applying to another professional school, excluding combined programs?

I would guess from least to greatest is MD-MBA-JD; and the JD would probably surpass the MD and MBA combined.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 13 Apr 2007, 20:02
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I agree with many of the statements already made here:

1] The JD. like the MD, is a terrible default degree program for students who are unsure what to do with their lives.

2] Many JDs do view themselves as trapped in the law, but this restriction is often self-imposed. Sadly. many students turn to law school because they have weak quant skills and do not develop them in law school or in their law careers. In turn, these individuals are not very marketable in the conventional business world because they do not have the necessary quant skills.

It should be noted that training in law combined with highly developed quant skills provides a profound level of insight into business transactions. When evaluating complex transactions one can understand the negotiation and contracting process in complete richness of detail in its "native langauge" at the same time as you can model the substantive economic effects of the transaction.

Further, law schools continue to be an important source of CEOs. Harvard Law School, for example, produces far more major CEOs than many MBA programs ever do.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 15 Apr 2007, 09:22
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Hi,

I haven't posted before but this seems like an interesting topic.

So what is the value of a JD from a top school in the business world? I see it noted that Harvard Law produces quite a number of business leaders. Can one put a value to a Harvard JD? Does it offer the same level of opportunity as say a top 10 MBA? I'm curious...
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Any of you consider law school instead? 15 Apr 2007, 11:06
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Hjort, you just gave me warm fuzzy feelings all over.

gelato, welcome to the club. The value of a JD from a top school, particularly Harvard, is that it is a great indicator of inherent capabilities. As discussed earlier in this thread, it is much more challenging academically to get into the top law schools than it is go get into the top business schools (business schools have requirements other than academics, as mentioned above).

Many top firms are interested in hiring the smartest most talented individuals, regardless of their training. For example, McKinsey has some statement (paraphrasing) that they value mental horsepower above anything else. A law degree also teaches analysis, decision making and logic which can be useful in a business setting; but really the value of a JD is not anything taught in class. The value of a JD (from a top school) is that it identifies some of the most talented and capable college grads.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 15 Apr 2007, 14:20
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Interesting, pelihu. Good to have an insider's take on law practice. Do you regret the JD though? Would you recommend a top JD over an MBA as a way to get into business?

Do you have a rough idea what percentage of big firm first-years eventually hate their jobs/hop over into business?
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Any of you consider law school instead? 15 Apr 2007, 15:57
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Me? No, I don't regret it at all, I'm really glad that I did it. Actually, I'm almost always happy with the way things work it for me personally; I can't tell you how many times I've thought to myself "hmm, I never expected things to work out that way; this really turned out better than I could have hoped." I guess I just like to look at the bright side.

By the time I finished law school and took my first job for $125k + bonus, most of my friends I finished college with were getting their first promotions and making $50k or so. After practicing law for two years I had saved enough money to launch a business of my own - an idea first formulated when I took an MBA class during my final year of law school. The business was surprisingly successful right away and I was able to buy a house with a yard so I could adopt my dogs while running my business from home. My business unexpectedly lead me to start doing business and building relationships on the ground in China, which has led to my plans for launching a new future business. Darden liked my vision for launching this future business and offered a full scholarship through their institute for entrepreneurship, which provides unique opportunities in the exact field I'm interested in. I could never have predicted the path that lead me to this stage and I don't know how things will work out going forward but I feel pretty fortunate about how things have evolved to this stage. Some might look at years spend pursuing a law degree as wasted, but really I wouldn't trade the experience; I guess it's just how you look at it.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't recommend a JD instead of an MBA as a way of getting into business. The exception would be if you get into Harvard, Yale or Stanford law schools. Those three will open doors into not only law and business, but politics and virtually any field you can imagine. Other top law schools will offer more or less the same opportunities at big law firms, but do not provide the broad opportunities of those 3. That said, if you can get into Harvard or Stanford business school, you should just do that and forget about the JD (if you're sure you want to pursue a business career). I did know people at Michigan that joined Goldman, McKinsey, Citigroup & other top companies right out of law school, and I was personally able to secure an offer from McKinsey after practicing law for a year - so it's definitely possible if you are focused on that goal; but all the same it's probably easier to just to go after a top MBA. Getting the MBA would also allow for more flexibility down the line.
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Any of you consider law school instead? 16 Apr 2007, 19:39
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I thought about going to law school after undergrad. I worked at a white shoe firm as a legal assistant for almost two years afterwards, took the LSATs, and at the last minute decided not to apply. I realized that I was one of the people applying to law school because I was unsure of what else to do. I definitely learned a lot at the firm where I worked: how to work with others, how to deal with intense pressure, how to pull 42-hour shifts and still act professional, etc. The main problem I had was that the firm was incredibly inefficient (in many, many ways) and that didn't seem to bother anyone. I would be asked to do something in a certain way and while doing it, I would think of several ways that the whole process could work faster/better. As a lowly legal assistant, no one cared much for what I had to say, and the fact that no one above me ever thought of ways to make things work better bothered me. That happened over and over and I soon realized that I couldn't go to law school.

The firm I worked for has taken my former colleagues from my legal assistant class back as "summer" associates; they will make $160K + bonus as first-year associates. I will certainly not make that much out of bschool, at least not right away, but I am quite sure that I will not have the same miserable graduate school/young assoicate experience as they are having/will have.

As far as I could tell while working at the firm, attorneys tend to be very conservative in the sense that many are risk-averse. Most big firms offer three-month, full salary severance packages that they do not want to give out (and hence they keep on folks who are unproductive for longer than they should, in my humble opinion.) I am willing to bet that many bschool students are willing to take a little more risk, and I like that about them. If you're not willing to give something that is even a little risky a chance, how much can you really get out of it?
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Any of you consider law school instead? 27 Dec 2024, 09:07
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Hello from the GMAT Club MBAbot!

Thanks to another GMAT Club member, I have just discovered this valuable topic, yet it had no discussion for over a year. I am now bumping it up - doing my job. I think you may find it valuable (esp those replies with Kudos).

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