Any of you consider law school instead?

Question

I know we have a couple JD's here, but was anyone else considering law school at any point? I've spent a law school forums that are similar to this one, and it's amazing how many people a year or two out of law school really seem unhappy with their decision. Did anyone hear think about law school before making the decision to apply to b-school?

gmatclb · Answer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people that went to law school really had not clear idea of what they wanted to do. They know they wanted to make a lot of money, but the path to law school right out of undergrad seemd like a good idea.

Almost anyone in a liberal arts major that I know of thought about law school at one time. Not to knock down the degree, but that's just what I think.

eazyb81 · Answer

I initially planned to go to law school right after undergrad, but during my final semester I had a change of heart and wanted to work a bit in business to see if I liked it. Long story short, I discovered I had an interest in finance and decided to pursue an MBA to enhance my abilities and job prospects in this field.

pelihu · Answer

That's correct, law school has traditionally been a refuge for high achieving undergrads that don't have a clear idea of what they want to do. If you have a good undergraduate record and a top LSAT score, heading off to law school is easier than looking for a job.

There are good and bad things about practicing law. My experience is with big firms so that's what I can talk about. Big firm lawyers tend to have a little more job security (compared to MBA grads) from what I can tell. Almost all the big firms are partnerships and you do get a sense that when they hire you, they are thinking about your future 5-10 years down the road. Firm partners have more flexibility to keep people on during recessions - there is not outside shareholder pressure to lay people off. During the downturn after 2001, a few firms folded and laid off a bunch of people, but most of the big-time long established firms kept everyone on. Sure, performance reviews may have been tougher, and new hiring was reduced, but people on the inside were largely protected.

Law firm pay is good, especially since most new associates have zero work experience in any field. Another plus for a young professional is that it's easy to describe what you do at a cocktail party; and I definitely knew a lot of people that appreciated the status of being a lawyer. It just sounds different when you introduce yourself as "a lawyer with XYZ firm" as opposed to "I'm an associate brand manager" (not to bag on any job in particular). For some people, that means a lot.

On the negative side, I made a lot less as a lawyer than the bankers that I worked with and we tended to work similar hours. The insular, secure nature of a law firm leads to lockstep salaries at almost all the top firms. This means that you are largely compensated according to your class (the year you graduated) with just a small part of your bonus tied to performance. I guess as a lawyer you trade the opportunity to be a star for the security of a steady paycheck. Law firm partners can make as much a Ibank MDs, depending on the practice area.

Personally, I got out because wanted the chance to start my own business. I'm headed to business school now to continue building on that idea. Practicing law in a big firm is more about steady, measured career progress. I didn't like practicing law in New York because we worked just as hard as young bankers but made much less money. On the west coast, law firm hours are much more manageable and the lifestyle is sustainable. For someone looking for a profession with steady career progression and good pay, the practice of law (outside NY) is a pretty good deal. Big firm lawyers tend to be compensated at the same level as big firm management consultants.

johnnyx9 · Answer

I was hoping you would chime in Pelihu, thanks, some interesting info there.

From what I hear from friends in law school, the workload is much more serious/intense than b-school. I could see at some point down the road wanting to go to law school for the prestige and the amazing number of options it would afford (the JD and MBA combo that is).

gmatclb · Answer

Is there such a thing as a part-time JD at top schools?

If you do have an MBA and some work experience, does it help in getting a JD from a top school or are admissions largely determined through GPA/LSAT numbers?

rustmonster · Answer

I don't want to discourage anyone from pursuing a JD, but my advice is to do so only if you are serious about practicing law (and maybe if you are interested in public policy or working in the government). I am not convinced that a JD/MBA degree itself is all that helpful to folks who want to stay in business and have no interest in practicing law. I do think it is useful for attorneys who want a comfort zone with business concepts.

What a JD alone will not do is make you a go-to guy in your business firm for legal issues. Basically a JD without experience in a particular field is, well, kinda useless.

What a JD will do is teach you to spot legal issues and problems, develop your analytical thinking ability, provide a framework for understanding the regulatory system within which businesses operate, and hopefully improve your communication skills.

My sense of law school v. business school is that both are demanding on your time, but in different ways. Law school time consumption to me was mostly class + massive reading (and I mean alot). Journal work and job search were in there as well. Business school seems like it will also be very demanding on my time but more in the vein of juggling a lot more things of closer to equal time demands.

To give one view of law school v. another professional school, in this case medical school. An attorney in my firm was a neurosurgeon for 12 years before going to law school. I once asked him which was harder law school or medical school. He emphatically replied, law school. I asked why, and he said both required a lot of reading, but in medical school the reading involved a lot of brute memorization which he found easy. Whereas in law school, not only was there a huge volume of reading, but the material (court opinions) was often conceptually difficult and ambiguous. That's was just his experience. It might not have been others.

In law school, you read court opinions to pick them apart, critique the reasoning, and to a surprising degree for me, not necessarily to learn the holding in the case (ie law). I recall being really frustrated spending hours digesting a case, a whole class period arguing over the reasoning of the decision, only to be told at the end of the class that the case hasn't been good law for, say, 100 years. Argh! I suspect every law student has had that experience. It's just the school teaching you to think like a lawyer, not necessarily to teach you the law. Thats what the bar exam is for in their minds.

As a side note, you can get so involved in the reasoning of a case that is easy to lose sight of things that should be obvious. We'd discuss a case all class and at the end the professor would ask, "So, who won this case. The plaintiff or the defendant?" No one would know. We'd all scramble back through the case trying to figure out who actually won. Somehow it got lost in the shuffle.

PS One final thing. I lived with business students when I was in law school and had a lot of friends from that school (an M7). They were - almost without exception - happier with the experience of business school than my law student colleagues were about their law school experience. Law school is sorta of a loner's game. A lot of time is necessarily spent reading and outlining alone. Business school was, even back then, a much more people-centered, team oriented approach (and that business school is not a notoriously team oriented place), and I think that approach lends itself to much happier students. At least thats what Im hoping!

naturallight · Answer

I wanted to go to law school until I took the lsat and realized I wouldn't be able to get into the local state school, which is barely in the top 30. So I got a CFA instead.

My wife went to the local law school. I have to say, those law school kids are pretty sharp. Lots of Stanford and Harvard grads in her class, lots of >3.8 GPAs in undergrad, one girl even had a PhD from berkeley. 

And if they wanted, these kids could walk into a $125k big firm job and probably be at $200k after 3-5 years. The MBA kids from the same school would have a much harder time doing that.

pelihu · Answer

I totally agree with rustmonster on the nature of law school. Tons and tons of reading - and when you first start out at law school, all of the reading is really slow going. I was an English major in college and it was a simply matter to get through 15-20 pages a night for 3-4 classes. When I first got to law school, it took a lot of effort just to get through cases. There's a lot of new jargon, a lot of new concepts, and you have to apply critical reasoning and analysis skills each step of the way. I could knock out 60-80 pages in an hour or two in college, but that first semester of law school it would take an hour+ just to get through 10-15 pages.

The good news is that once you get the hang of it, it goes much more quickly as you learn to break down cases and analyze them at warp speed. It took an hour to struggle through a ten page case during my first year, but by the third year you can breeze through a dozen cases in the same amount of time because you know how to immediately seize upon the key issues in each case, and then analyze and apply your own reasoning to them.

I haven't been to business school yet, but I would guess that the first year of law school would be harder - especially if you don't have a background in the study of language. First year of law school is call 1L, and there is a famous book with the similar sounding name of "One-Hell" that describes the experience. The job market was excellent while I was in law school, so competition was low, but I imagine that law school would be brutally cutthroat in a tough job market.

I also agree that the study of law has little application for most business applications. It's true that you see people with JDs rising to the top of IBank, MC and Fortune 500 corporations, but I think this is more a reflection of the talent level of the individuals rather than anything that they learned in law school. In other words, someone that can gain admission to Harvard Law School can probably succeed in almost any field, no matter what training he receives. Admissions to law school is typically tougher than business school, at least from a numbers perspective. For example, the middle 50% of GPAs at the top 3 law schools are 3.75-3.95. In other words, 25% of students have GPAs  higher  than 3.95. LSAT holds similar weight - you won't find those kind of stats at any business school, but of course with b-school, experience and activities have more weight.

I anticipate that classwork will not be as intensive for business school, but outside activities and the job hunt will require a lot more time and effort. I look forward to a great experience working with other motivated students at business school. As rustmonster said, you spend a lot of time at law school studying on your own. As a result, I don't think people form particularly strong bonds and relationships with fellow students there.

I will add that while training as a lawyer has little application in many business settings, it can be very useful in situations where the law is not settled, or where you are forced to think on your feet an analyze. For example, if you want to work for a hedge fund or in venture capital where business practices are not well established, law school training might be very useful. If you're planning on working in new markets, a law degree might help you work more effectively. For example, I think a law degree will help push deals through when dealing with regulatory issues in China limiting foreign investment. It's also pretty well established that the analytical training of law school can be effectively applied to MC careers, and banks value the diligence required to get into and through law school. In fact, job descriptions at many MC & IB firms specifically list MBA or JD as a requirement. But generally speaking, I wouldn't recommend trying to add a JD after you get an MBA - only do it if you want to practice law.

kidderek · Answer

Read Planet Law School. It is pretty accurate.

I think law school teaches you to think in details and minutiae that most people do not and sometimes can not do. They embarrass you enough so that you will be prepared all the time. Other than that, you're mostly teaching yourself.

I also get the feeling that business school is a lot of schmoozing and networking.

I haven't met many bschool students, but law school students are pretty miserable. I also think that people who go to business school are a different breed. They tend to be more relaxed and have more fun. Law school types are more serious. Stereotypes? Yes.

johnnyx9 · Answer

This is some really interesting info.

So why is law school so appealing for so many? It seems like a little cursory research on b-school will yield glowing reviews from people who have been through it, even though they may admit MBA's are probably overvalued (i.e., they're not your magic ticket to wealth). But just a little research on law school turns up lots and lots of disgruntled lawyers who say they made a mistake. Why is it still so appealing to so many people?

aaudetat · Answer

Somewhere in Montauk's book he talks about how getting an MBA is such a great experience, and that most students are very happy with the degree and the experience and don't have regrets later. He then compares MBAs to JDs. Let's just say many, many fewer JDs are equally happy. A friend of mine just got her JD from BU - it was the worst three years of her life.

Oh, and to back up those of you who said that law school is a liberal arts student's haven, I would agree. Lots of the kids at my college - especially the smart ones - considered law at one point.

dukes · Answer

The reality is that there are very few "sexy" jobs out there for new grads. Even at the top schools many people will still end up making sub $40k or even sub $30k salaries doing gofer work and a lot of people think they're above that. Similarly, some think they're too good to do the whole 9-5 thing working for "the man". Continuing your education is the easiest way to avoid that stage of your life (or so they think). I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who say their post college plans are "grad school" but they're not sure yet in what field. I was definitely one of those people for quite awhile. 

Why do people ignore all the disgruntled lawyer stories? Not sure, but its probably for the same reason that so many people ignore the IB horror stories. Glamor, money, power, the way these careers are portrayed in popular culture, etc.

pelihu · Answer

That's exactly right. As I mentioned above, it's a whole lot easier and more appealing for some people to head to a top law school than it is to take a $30-40k job.

Another thing is that if you can get to a top law school, your professional future is secure and you can completely avoid hard-core recruiting. Law firm recruiting is a simpler matter (at top schools any ways). Basically, firms come to campus and you sign up. Interviews are largely for fit - I have never heard of law firms asking challenging questions in their interviews. If you can get along with the people at the firm, then you're in. It's all about grades, test scores and the reputation of your school.

There are a lot of people that do not enjoy the intense all-out experience of MBA recruiting. Schmooze with dozens of firms again and again to secure an interview spot, only to face challenging case or behavioral or quantitative interviews. Some people thrive in that setting, while others dread it. If you go the law firm route, you can secure yourself a top job in the classroom.

Dukes is right, people hear the stories and still go into law, just like they go into IB and MC. If you want to make $150k+ 3-4 years out of college, you don't have much choice. If you go into a field known more for quality of life, you might not make as much even 8-10 years out of college (factor in pre-MBA work experience, MBA, $90k staring salary & 2-3 years progression). For those getting an MBA that want to make the $130-150k salary of a 1st year lawyer, MC and IB are probably your choices and the quality of life is more or less equal (varies by firm of course). Let's be honest, not many people land PE/VC/HF jobs. If you're willing to make $80-100k, there are "quality of life" law firms out there as well.

flapjack · Answer

Law students are miserable because they work their butts off and are worried about getting good jobs (at least during the first year). First year grades can have a substantial impact on a lawyer's future career, so it's not surprising that law students stress about it. Also, it's more difficult to get into a top law school and law students often had excellent undergrad grades and were top students. It's a shock for many of them to go to a top law school and just be average after being the smartest person in class for their academic career up until that point. 

Most settle down after they secure a good job and are more relaxed during the second and third years.

squali83 · Answer

I agree with this thread completely. My closest friend is currently a second year student and just landed an internship and job offer two months ago. He is signed on to make $2500/week this summer and then 130K + bonuses when he becomes fully employed. However, he is thinking about throwing it all away to get his MBA!!!!! :shock:

Well, of course after he graduates. He always coments about how he wish he waited to decide what grad degree to pursue and that law school was just the obvious track to guarantee $$$ when he graduates. He is looking into IB right now but really is considering going to B-school. I cannot be grateful enough that I did not make the same mistake as I was SO close to doing so. But, it is not to say there are not happy lawyers I know of two lawyers who have been practicing for 5+ years and love it......

lepium · Answer

In my country, we have a saying that roughly translates as: "you'll be what you are destined to be or else you will become a lawyer". It seems from the posts in this thread that the situation may be quite similar in the US for some people. 

Cheers. L.

dukes · Answer

I recently noticed that there are at least a couple people in my Insead class for next year who are graduating from top 3 US law schools later this spring. I thought it was odd at first, but apparently its not that rare.

dukes · Answer

Holy student loan payments Batman!

There's nothing like being $400k in the hole before you ever earned a dime...

pelihu · Answer

I think another reason why you find miserable lawyers is because big firm lawyers have few options if they are unhappy with their careers. A lot of lawyers dream of moving into an in-house legal role, but it's unusual for lawyers to move into a normal management role. I have heard from friends that recruiters at big companies don't know what to do with someone with a JD degree. Also, I believe that many managers are wary of hiring someone that was recently making $175k per year for a job that's budgeted for $90k per year. Even if the lawyer is enthusiastic about the opportunity, the hiring manager might not be interested in bringing in someone that was making as much or more than them.

MBA students have more flexibility of course. I think a very common career plan for MBA grads is to go into IB or MC for a few years to make a wad of cash, and then to move onto a different type of role. The MBA is the standard degree for consulting & banking as well as marketing, management and a host of other job tracks.

With an MBA, if you hate your job there are thousands of companies that regularly hire people like you. If you have a JD and you hate being a lawyer, there are maybe a few dozen firms (like Goldman & McKinsey) that regularly hire JDs to fill their business & management type roles. Your options are much more limited and the competition is incredible; the majority of companies to don't know what to do with a JD or aren't willing to deal with the hassle of hiring someone with that background. So, lawyers to keep on being lawyers even if they are miserable.

Any of you consider law school instead?

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