I assume HSW and some of the M7 makes it easy to enter a sales and trading job. But what schools outside of the M7 are good for training/getting a job for S&T? I assume Ross (Tozzi Finance Center)and Johnson (student run hedge fund) must be good. Any others?

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Best School for Trading?

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naturallight

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I feel that. I'm on the waitlist for my top two schools, but they said they'd be doing a review near the end of march, so hopefully I'll hear then.

Jeebus, Cornell had really early deadlines. R2 in early Nov?

aaudetat

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01 Mar 2007, 09:18

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naturallight

Yeah, their R3 is more like most school's R2. And R1 is for crazy over-achievers. R3 is the scholarship deadline.

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I work in the rates trading business at a top tier ibank in London. Very few of the salespeople and traders have MBA's, the ones that do are from NYU, LBS, Wharton, and a couple of others. Quite a few also have a MiF from LBS.

Its not a bad career choice if you can hack it, and get on a profitable desk. Most of the senior people work 7 - 5 ish and the juniors 7 - 7. Pretty reasonable considering some of them are raking in several million $ a year.

Mark4124

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01 Mar 2007, 13:51

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I know Bear Stearns has an MBA internship program for their sales/trading. I believe that you can get into Lehman as well. Sell side positions. Buy side often comes down to getting the right connection. I have a friend who toured around at top firm's buyside trading group. Alot of those people just knew the right people.

biggamejames

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All these schools with the student run funds....sounds like a gimmick.

Sounds like more of an activity to talk about in the interviews and not something to really learn about the markets. And even if you talk about it in an interview, how would the recruiter look at the experience?

I think top schools that are located in big cities would be your best bet.

Nsentra

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biggamejames

I think you've hit a nail on the head. I believe I've read a small print somewhere about the Parker Center that the price quotes are delayed by 15min - real state of the art. Even during the tour of GSB the students showed us a lonely and dusty Bloomberg workstation hiding somewhere in the corner of the general computer lab.

To be honest I am not sure how well MBA would prepare anyone for a trading position. It would be fun to take some behavioral class on this topic though.

You would probably get more exposure by taking your 7th series exam and going to work at a prop trading firm in NYC for commission only. After and if you survive few rough years you probably would have earned yourself a spot at a bigger firm.

Besides the fact that I think the "old-school trader" career is evolving into computer algo running the show and the trader just looking to tweak it and news.

naturallight

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I've spent a lot of time talking to current students who participate in various student run funds. From a Trading perspective, I think you're right--none of these funds are going to help you learn how to trade.

But from an Investment Research perspective, I've heard that these funds are immensely helpful. A lot of schools have weekly stock pitch events, where 1st years present and defend their stock reports in front of the 2nd year student investment committee. Given that the students are managing real money, everything is taken quite seriously.

Also, since most MBA programs don't have a "Stock Picking" class, these funds are really the only way to prepare you for both interviews and your future research associate job.

A final note--one of the students I talked to is doing a one-semester internship for a small hedge fund. Basically, the student is preparing a report to recommend a stock for the hedge fund to buy. This student has a strong finance background (good positions at well-respected asset mgmt firms, also has a CFA), and he told me there was no way he could do this internship without his experience from the student run fund.

Mark4124

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UNC's stuff looked cool... But I didn't talk to any of the student analysts... so I cant verify what degree was sex appeal and what was hardcore trading technology.

pelihu

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I totally agree that a top school in a big city is the way to go for this type of position. I also agree that many of the positions are heading to quantitative/algorithm type jobs. Barclay's Global Investors has established a huge niche for this in San Francisco.

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pelihu

Hey! I thought an MBA was about Management, not analysis?
How will an MBA teach me new quant skills over my undergrad Engineering degree? Am I way off, here? Or do I actually make sense?

Btw, I'm not interested in any type of financial possition and know almost nothing about it, just enjoying this post, and trying to contribute, that's all.

Thanks. L.

Mark4124

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Depends on where you go and what you focus on! But for a true "quant" experience... an MS Financial Engineering or a highly quant oriented MSF program might be more your speed.

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02 Mar 2007, 12:26

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Mark4124

Depends on where you go and what you focus on! But for a true "quant" experience... an MS Financial Engineering or a highly quant oriented MSF program might be more your speed.

But they don't know how to party like MBA students!!!

lepium

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kidderek

Mark4124

Depends on where you go and what you focus on! But for a true "quant" experience... an MS Financial Engineering or a highly quant oriented MSF program might be more your speed.

But they don't know how to party like MBA students!!!

Thanks for the answers.

But my underlying question would remain: why would I want to go for an MBA and then do research, by myself, having no direct reports or not working with people?

I assume the answer may go:

a) It's about paying your dues into the industry, so that you can then move on to some managerial position.
b) The pay is so high that noone cares whether they manage people or not.

I guess, as Mark said, that the MS Finance would be more appropriate for the researcher / analyst position?

naturallight

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02 Mar 2007, 13:13

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Quote:

But my underlying question would remain: why would I want to go for an MBA and then do research, by myself, having no direct reports or not working with people?

I think I understand your broad point. But I would say that doing stock research is very people oriented. I think there's a misconception that these guys are locked in a room poring over financial statements and economic reports.

From what I gather, it's just the opposite--very little time is spent digging through the numbers. The vast majority of time is spent interviewing people related to the company or industry--so you're talking to suppliers, distributers, high level executives, low level mgmt, competitors, former employees, trade associations and the like.

All the while, you're constantly bouncing ideas off the rest of your research team. And you can move up and become a PM, where you'd manage a team of research analysts.

My 2 cents. I don't do this stuff now, so I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm interested in it so I've been talking with a lot of research guys and PMs. It seems to me like an MBA is definitely very applicable to this type of career.

lepium

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02 Mar 2007, 13:16

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naturallight

Quote:

But my underlying question would remain: why would I want to go for an MBA and then do research, by myself, having no direct reports or not working with people?

Thanks, natural! Now it makes sense. Actually the interviewing suppliers, distributors, etc. sounds similar to some aspects of consulting.

Cheers. L.

rdw28

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02 Mar 2007, 14:41

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I work for a trading firm at the moment. I also look toward becoming a prop trader, hopefully at a HF, some time after b-school.

For the most part, most of the traders that I am aware of do not have MBA's. These guys stay on the floor/desk until they get increased responsibilities, which translate into higher bonuses. However, As said before, the position is becoming increasingly more quant and 'computerfied'. B-School's that employ financial models along with some programming (quant language like Matlab) would fair the best.

As for what particular schools? I believe most t-20, that are at least marginally close to a city, will get you in the door. For the most part, if your school draws attention from IB's, then you will at least have the opportunity. There is one drawback- Even though the field is changing, there are still a LOT of old school traders who run things. If you come into your interview toting your schools rankings or prestige, mentioning your path to become CEO, they will literally curse you the f-- out, with a smile too. I mean, I would cut my baby toe off to attend HBS, but I am also aware that many desks (especially those not Buy/Side) probably wouldnt want me....

rdw28

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02 Mar 2007, 14:43

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In addition,

I think those student ran funds are cool and all, but unless you're planning to go into the research field after grad., it means very little

jchip

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One exit I've seen from my former boss who has a PE/trading background is to set up your own firm. He made a bundle after taking a company public in 2000. He kept most of his money in treasuries and started an investment firm with a partner. He now does a little Private Equity with some equity and fixed income trading.

I think his MBA training at Wharton gave him the technical tools to analyze investments. He has the best people skills among all the bosses I've had.

There definitely is a value to the MBA degree even in trading especially when you decide to strike out on your own later on.

3underscore

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06 Mar 2007, 02:06

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Nsentra

meh. I left this alone for a while, but I can't resist. The worm is just too attractive.

*Bloomberg terminals are typically also 15min delayed.

*The cost between 15min delay and live is HUGE. As in top financial institutions don't pay it unless necessary huge. As in holy-god huge. 15min timelag bloomberg is pretty pricey itself, and they would have that in place because learning all your BTMM and other codes are, like, pretty good. And its historical data feed into excel is the killer app.

*It is an Investment Fund. Live rates don't matter cr@p to an investment fund as you are talking about a hold or why if you decide to sell. These funds aren't doing arb. The point is in the principles of why you invest in x over y

Right, that will do for now. But lets just leave it said that your chances of seeing live rates at all when actually on your MBA and not on an intern are if you take a day trip to the exchange.

Sure, they are a gimmick, but they are the kind of skills learning in a group, in that setting, that will definitely not do you harm.

rhyme

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06 Mar 2007, 05:18

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I used to work in a pit once. Open outcry is pretty wild, but seems to be dying via the route of electronic everything. but anyway.... I have some questions:

* Is S&T what it sounds like? Literally, being a trader in the traditional sense of the word? That is, market maker?

* Whats the sales side of things?

* If its being a trader, whats the big draw? As an undergrad, going into trading was what you did if you couldnt find a normal job. It meant a year plus as a 'runner' - basically doing nothing but being someone else's b***. It wasn't a glamorous job, nor was it a well paying job, nor was it a low stress job, and on top of that, there were no guarantee's you'd actually get to become a trader. In fact, pretty much the only thing you could count on was a high probability of becoming a cocaine addict, since that stuff flows like water in the pits. In fact, I know a friend who quit and got his MBA from Columbia (or is doing so now) precisely because he couldn't deal with all the blow anymore. In any case.... With an MBA, do you actually start trading from when you join or do you go through a similar multi-year good luck getting-of-the-desk-and-onto-the-floor role?

It just seems like trading, as I know it - being in a pit at some options exchange or something - is the one job you basically don't need anything but guts and some quant skills for. No one I know at the firms I know would give a flying !(@# if you had an MBA.