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Engineers transition to IB

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 02 Sep 2008, 08:23
ok guys, now I speak the same language than yours :wink:

Many, many, many thanks for the explanation

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 02 Sep 2008, 08:31
JohnLewis1980 wrote:
@ sonibubu, apologies if I've modified the original topic of the thread.


No problem, pelihu already answered my question in-depth...so do as you wish with this thread at this point :lol:

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New post 02 Sep 2008, 19:24
Earlier today I attended a talk by a Goldman Sachs MD at Haas. He was accompanied by a VP (ex-Haas) and an Associate (also ex-Haas). The topic was 'An introduction to Investment Banking'.

While the talk did cover various points ranging from the impact of financial markets on GS hiring in the near term to the 'day in the life' type of topics, what interested me most was a key point made by the MD. According to him, when GS interviews candidates for the associate position, they're not asking if the person can do the job that is required of an investment banking associate, apparently almost everyone that is interviewed can. Analytical skills are taken for granted. Instead they're zoning in on those people who they believe have the potential to become a VP or an MD down the line, someone that can handle the sensitivities of a client relationship. The key, according to him, is the same as that which pelihu has talked of: Can you fit into a social situation with ease? Can you talk about nothing while making the other person interested in you? Can you create a positive impression without looking like you're trying too hard? Are you presentable? Are you polished? Can you distinguish yourself in a matter of moments? It does all boil down to interpersonal skills, which are certainly harder to pick up.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 02 Sep 2008, 23:15
Futuristic wrote:
Earlier today I attended a talk by a Goldman Sachs MD at Haas. He was accompanied by a VP (ex-Haas) and an Associate (also ex-Haas). The topic was 'An introduction to Investment Banking'.

While the talk did cover various points ranging from the impact of financial markets on GS hiring in the near term to the 'day in the life' type of topics, what interested me most was a key point made by the MD. According to him, when GS interviews candidates for the associate position, they're not asking if the person can do the job that is required of an investment banking associate, apparently almost everyone that is interviewed can. Analytical skills are taken for granted. Instead they're zoning in on those people who they believe have the potential to become a VP or an MD down the line, someone that can handle the sensitivities of a client relationship. The key, according to him, is the same as that which pelihu has talked of: Can you fit into a social situation with ease? Can you talk about nothing while making the other person interested in you? Can you create a positive impression without looking like you're trying too hard? Are you presentable? Are you polished? Can you distinguish yourself in a matter of moments? It does all boil down to interpersonal skills, which are certainly harder to pick up.


Sounds like a really interesting event for sure. I believe it completely. Associates are career-track positions and they are generally what feed the VP/MD ranks. If they don't recruit the right associates, they won't have any future homegrown MDs. This is in stark contrast with Analysts out of Undergrad, which are meant to be 2 years and out positions.
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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 03:34
hey Futuristic,
How easy/difficult is it to get placed in east coast (NYC) I-Bank during internship or full-time from Haas.
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New post 03 Sep 2008, 12:56
sonibubu: The fact remains that Haas is not the strongest in terms of placements in the finance sector, especially so at investment banks. The MD did mention that till 4 years ago, there were no formal ties between the b-school and GS, which I would expect to be true for other banks as well.

The silver lining is that this scenario is changing somewhat. Over the past 4 years, recruiting from Haas has picked up. I don't have the numbers for other banks, but the VP mentioned that GS has recruited 2-3 students consistently over the past 3-4 years, and that they have been impressed with the quality of students. A slightly broader comment was that till recently the bulge-brackets went out to maybe 5-6 schools across the country, which is atleast part of the reason you see a high concentration of the top few schools at these firms.

I understand that this does not give you the quantitative data that you may have wanted. I am in the process of digging this up, and will be putting it out here in a few weeks in the form of a better qualified answer.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 13:15
Futuristic wrote:
A slightly broader comment was that till recently the bulge-brackets went out to maybe 5-6 schools across the country, which is atleast part of the reason you see a high concentration of the top few schools at these firms.


This is very interesting. I would have assumed they have always targeted M7 + Tuck. Are there a couple of these schools that were excluded in the past? MIT/Kellogg/Tuck perhaps?

Until PE/VC and IM became all the rage, I believe that IB was THE place to be if you came out of an Ivy Undergrad or top business school. It's almost a second choice option for the ultra qualified finance people nowadays - hence the broadening of the recruiting pool.
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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 14:30
terp06 wrote:
Futuristic wrote:
A slightly broader comment was that till recently the bulge-brackets went out to maybe 5-6 schools across the country, which is atleast part of the reason you see a high concentration of the top few schools at these firms.


This is very interesting. I would have assumed they have always targeted M7 + Tuck. Are there a couple of these schools that were excluded in the past? MIT/Kellogg/Tuck perhaps?

Until PE/VC and IM became all the rage, I believe that IB was THE place to be if you came out of an Ivy Undergrad or top business school. It's almost a second choice option for the ultra qualified finance people nowadays - hence the broadening of the recruiting pool.


I don't believe this is accurate. I know that Darden has long-standing campus recruiting relationships with Lehman, Merrill, JP Morgan, Citi, Morgan, DB, BofA (not bulge bracket to all people), Bear (RIP) and others. I do know the formal relationship with GS has developed more recently (in the last 4-5 years), but they took at least 6 people that I can think of off-hand this past summer. Credit Suisse has had an on-and-off relationship, but an MD in charge of recruitment recorded an unsolicited spot for our career services office this year, saying that they have made the formal decision to increase the numbers from here.

So to say bulge brackets limited their recruitment to 5-6 schools until recently is not accurate as far as I can tell. I'm quite sure that a majority of the bulge bracket banks recruit at all the ultra-elites, plus Tuck, NYU, Cornell & Darden at the very least. I do believe that the relationships with UCLA and Berkeley are not as strong, and have heard from current students that some of the banks may have limited exposure to Michigan and/or Duke. I believe it is generally accurate to say most of the bulge bracket banks recruit at most of the elites and all the ultra-elites. If any generalization can be drawn, it would be that Tuck, NYU, Cornell & Darden get the most coverage, then Duke and Michigan, with UCLA and Berkeley getting the least. I think proximity to New York (and willingness of students to relocate there) is actually the biggest factor influencing how much effort firms put into targeting schools in this range; all of which leads to stronger or weaker ongoing relationships between the firms and the various schools.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 14:36
Do the bulge bracket firms have relationships with USC/Emory/Tepper/Texas/UNC ?
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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 16:39
terp06 wrote:
Do the bulge bracket firms have relationships with USC/Emory/Tepper/Texas/UNC ?


I saw in a Texas IB Group Presentation where they listed the relationship the school had with most of the major banks.

For instance:

In NY:
Merrill, JP Morgan, Wachovia and BofA regularly hire Texas grads
Lehman, UBS, CSFB, and Deutsche they are developing a relationship with and
GS and Morgan Stanley do not recruit there

In Houston:
Merrill, JP Morgan, Wachovia and BofA, Lehman, and Deutsche focus on hiring Texas grads where as
CSFB and UBS are a relationship in progress and
MS, GS, and Citi do not recruit on campus

So for some schools it can be different depending on the office location. At McCombs, Lehman and Deutsche hire Texas grads for their Energy group in Houston, but don't necessarily focus on recruiting those same students for their NY office. It may be that the graduate recruiter is geographically or sector focused for those firms, not really sure.

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 17:58
Agreed that it may not be correct, which is why I mentioned it as a broader comment and did not read much into it. Anyway, it was straight from the horse's (er... MD's) mouth.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 18:22
pelihu wrote:
I do believe that the relationships with UCLA and Berkeley are not as strong...If any generalization can be drawn, it would be that Tuck, NYU, Cornell & Darden get the most coverage, then Duke and Michigan, with UCLA and Berkeley getting the least...


Out of curiosity, do you have data backing up the UCLA generalization? I would think that after Tuck, NYU, and Cornell that UCLA is pretty close to Darden with regards to IB relationships and recruiting. Of the remaining elite schools, it seems to be the one most regarded as a "finance school". Of course that is mostly my general perception. According to their website (the finance club's site), most/all of the bulge brackets recruit on campus:

Goldman Sachs
Merrill Lynch
Lehman Brothers
JP Morgan
Citigroup
Credit Suisse
Morgan Stanley
UBS
Deutsche Bank
RBC Capital Markets
Piper Jaffray
Moelis & Co.
Banc of America Securities
Wachovia
Houlihan Lokey Howard & Zukin
SG Cowen
Lazard
Jeffries & Company
Wedbush Morgan Harris Williams & Co.
William Blair & Co.
JMP Securities LLC

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 18:55
I realize that this thread has run away from its course, but here's some of the information I looked up, I promise to shut up after this. Here's the Haas list for IB firms:-

Banc of America Securities
Broadview International (Jefferies & Co)
Cappello Group, Inc.
Citigroup - Smith Barney
Deutsche Bank Securities Inc.
Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein
Goldman Sachs & Co.
Harris Williams & Company
Houlihan Lokey Howard and Zukin (HLHZ)
Lazard
Lehman Brothers
Merrill Lynch
Montgomery & Co, LLC
Morgan Stanley
Perseus Group
Piper Jaffray
Putnam Lovell NBF
RBC Capital Markets
SVB Alliant
UBS Financial Services, Inc.
William Blair & Company

As another data point, here are some stats for the class graduating 2007:
Code:
Company (sector)                      %      MeanBase MedBase Bonus    Other       
Financial Services                 23.1%  $99,325  $95,000  $29,633  $29,003
Commercial Banking                  3.3%  $95,000 $95,000 $15,000 n/a
Diversified Financial Services      1.9% $105,000 $100,000 $15,000 n/a
Investment Banking/Brokerage        9.0% $94,588 $95,000 $41,800 $13,473
Investment/Portfolio Mgmt           6.1% $97,500 $100,000 $27,000 $34,844
Private Equity                     0.5% n/a n/a n/a n/a
Venuture Capital                      2.4% $117,000 $120,000 $9,250 $45,000


The 23% represents a percentage of the graduating class, which is typically 240. These stats are for FT students only.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 20:04
Well, in response to both Maverick and Futuristic, there's a huge difference between firms that post a job with a particular school (basically firms will post their jobs anywhere), and actual recruiting relationships. I know for a fact that many (perhaps most) of the banks listed for each do not maintain active recruiting relationships with those schools.

As to Maverick's request for data to back up the generalization, take a look at the link below. You can check out the recruiting schedules at JP Morgan for each of the 3 schools. JP Morgan is a good example to use right now because they're one of the only firms where you can expect any semblance of a normal recruiting schedule this year (even Goldman is having huge layoffs, and Lehman, Citi, Merrill, UBS, BofA, Wachovia and others might not be too eager to show their faces around campus this year).

Click the link and then look at MBA Campus Events:
http://careers.jpmorganchase.com/career ... mpusevents

As some background, here's the general intensity of various types of events, from low to high.
1. general presentation (anyone who wants free lunch or snacks can attend)
2. diversity event / career fair (often for information instead of recruiting)
3. conference (again, info and not really recruiting)
4. reception (generally open to everyone)
5. office hours (private one-on-one or two-on-two time, invite or open)
6. week on wall street / day in bank (open to anyone that signs up, but you have to get to NY)
7. a second reception and beyond (invite only)
8. reception in a swanky private setting (the shoe is now on the other foot)

In other words, a presentation is pretty much zero intensity, while a bunch of events leading up to private receptions and the like can definitely indicate some heavy breathing - in a recruiting sense.

So, here's a summary of the events that the 3 schools in question (Darden, Anderson, Haas) have.

Anderson
presentation (private banking)
full-time interviews (private banking)
presentation (private banking summer)
Interviews summer (private banking)
NOTE: There is no investment banking relationship here at all, just private banking. Even for private banking, the only event they have is a presentation (see above for event intensity levels). It is completely misleading to say that UCLA has a recruiting relationship with JP Morgan in this instance. IB recruiting at UCLA is at most a resume drop.

Haas
Presentation
Reception
Banking career Information session
Finance conference
Diversity conference
Week on Wall Street
NOTE: JP Morgan does not interview on or near campus at Haas, according to this schedule. I looked up some other schools, and those with relationships all indicate time and place for on/near campus interviews. The key issue really is that the info session and conferences can only be loosely considered as recruiting events; they are more like general information for people interested in finance, and thus low on the intensity scale (definitely less than a reception).

Darden
Presentation
Career Fair
Women's Event (off-site at a resort)
Career Fair (private banking)
Presentation (private banking)
Office Hours
Networking Reception (off-site at a resort)
Full-time interviews (on campus)
Finance Conference
Week on Wall Street
Summer Associate interviews (on campus)
I can tell you from personal experience that JP Morgan last year added an additional invitation on-campus event (wine tasting), cocktail events after each of the fairs and conferences, a private dinner during Week on Wall Street attended by 6 MDs hosting just 12 invited student, and a private dinner between 1st and 2nd round interviews (which both take place on/near campus). They will definitely step it up further at schools where they have strong recruiting relationships - beyond what is listed. That's serious heavy breathing.

Just browsing through the list, you can see that Darden's recruiting schedule (for JP Morgan) more closely resembles the slate at ultra-elite schools. Check them out for yourselves if interested, but certain schools definitely are not on the radar here, (Anderson - private bank only, Ross - presentation only, Haas - no on-campus interviews, etc.). Then compare with the robust schedules at Darden, Tuck, NYU & Wharton; and the crazy off-the-charts schedules at Columbia and Harvard.

Again, this is just one bank, but always keep in mind that there's a big difference from being listed as a "recruiting partner" or something like that, and a real ongoing relationship established over time (burnished by alumni throughout the ranks). It's kind of like b-school rankings - relationship changes take a long time because it will be a decade before new grads ascend the ranks into real decision-making positions.

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 21:05
I thought it was interesting to contrast Stanford and UT-Austin as I know JP Morgan recruits very heavily for Houston (Oil & Gas) out of Texas.

UT-Austin (McCombs):

09/17/2007 Presentation Private Banking 07:00 PM - 08:00 PM

10/22/2007 Full-time Interviews Private Banking 08:00 AM - 05:00 PM

10/30/2007 Private Equity Overview and Fundamentals of Valuation Investment Banking - CA
Investment Banking - Chi
Investment Banking - NY
Investment Banking - TX 07:00 PM - 10:00 PM On campus - Legacy Events Room

11/14/2007 Week on Wall Street Investment Banking - CA
Investment Banking - Chi
Investment Banking - NY
Investment Banking - TX 03:00 PM - 05:00 PM 277 Park, 2nd floor situation room

11/28/2007 Oil & Gas Networking Reception Investment Banking - TX 07:30 PM - 09:30 PM Stephen F. Austin Hotel , the State Room

09/22/2008 Presentation Private Banking 07:00 PM - 09:00 PM TBD

09/24/2008 Kick Off Investment Banking - NY
Investment Banking - TX 07:00 PM - 09:00 PM McCombs School of Business - Alumni Center

Stanford:

01/23/2008 Summer Associate Interviews Investment Banking - CA
Investment Banking - Chi
Investment Banking - NY
Investment Banking - TX 12:00 PM - 08:00 PM On campus

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 21:21
Actually, for Texas, that looks like for investment banking they do an information event, week on wall street and reception (the last two events are for a new period). The key really is that they don't indicate on/near campus interviews. I guess I'm not on board with calling a recruiting relationship legitimate if it doesn't include on-campus interviews. Just my own definition and point of view, but I think the underlying concept is sound.

For Stanford, we should always remember it's a two way street. I bet a lot of firms give up because they aren't very successful luring Stanford students. This really demonstrates the value in the ongoing recruiting relationship between schools and firms. Firms tend to maintain relationships where they have had success in the past - which in turn leads to robust alumni concentrations and so forth.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 21:56
pelihu wrote:
Actually, for Texas, that looks like for investment banking they do an information event, week on wall street and reception (the last two events are for a new period). The key really is that they don't indicate on/near campus interviews. I guess I'm not on board with calling a recruiting relationship legitimate if it doesn't include on-campus interviews. Just my own definition and point of view, but I think the underlying concept is sound.


Not sure if they do or not because there is only 1 school, Chicago, that specifically mentions an on-campus interview for IB. Neither Wharton nor Columbia specifically mentions it, so it is probably that the website isn't completely up to date and not necessarily that JP Morgan doesn't interview on campus at Texas. I would imagine if they visit that many times then they would tend to interview on-campus.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 21:57
pelihu wrote:
I guess I'm not on board with calling a recruiting relationship legitimate if it doesn't include on-campus interviews.


I hear what you're saying. At the same time, these banks have better things to do than simply send recruiters there for merely "informational purposes." Maybe they'll only take 1-2 UT folks (vs. 8-10 at Darden), but the banks aren't making presentations just for the sake of doing so.

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 22:15
Could be that the site doesn't reflect all events, and again, it's just my opinion. However, I will say that my opinion is formed from more than just a recruitment schedule (and of only one firm at that). For example, I didn't need to look anything up to know that UCLA doesn't have that much pull in banking - but supporting data can be useful as well. Could very well be that the local office in Houston or where ever is performing their own follow-up with Texas; on the other hand it could also show that they're able to find people with a specific background there year after year (probably a whole lot more people with oil and gas backgrounds who are also willing to work in Texas there than at Tuck, for example). But I agree, they wouldn't be making presentations for no reason.

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Re: Engineers transition to IB [#permalink]

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New post 03 Sep 2008, 23:30
Great link. It's certainly interesting to see that Kellogg and Stanford both have minimal presence, along with the UC schools. As far as I know, JPMorgan has smaller offices in SF/LA when compared to the other banks, and this could potentially be part of their reasoning - they know that UCLA/Haas people want to stay in California.
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