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solaris1
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 08:39
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Wowza - did some egos get dented here or what! :-D

Tell me, and I've brought this point up quite often in my posts here, is the whole point of an MBA to get a job with McK or Google?

And I find it slightly ridiculous to insinuate that a program that one has never heard of cannot be a quality one. It's like saying a small liberal arts college you've never heard of can't give you as good, if not better, an undergraduate education as the Ivy League - which is certainly not true.

As far as the question of salary increases is concerned, it does look like the weighted salary numbers are adjusted for cost-of-living. But that's the only reasonable way to compare salaries when international schools are thrown into the mix and doing so ensures that the weakening dollar is NOT a factor in these comparisons.

Would schools in the developing world show a greater salary increase than ones in the developed world? Maybe, but that shouldn't be an outlier because most MBA's from such school would stay on to work in the same economy. So a 150% increase in salary for someone who finished an MBA in India or China and decided to stay on and work in India or China, is indeed impressive.

I haven't spent time looking at the numbers more closely, but I suspect the "top" US Schools lose out significantly on the following:

Women board: 1%
International faculty: 4%
International student: 4% I think a lot of the European schools have more than half their classes feature international students?
International board: 2%
International mobility: 6%
International experience: 2%
Language: 2% Is there any school that has a second language requirement - The Wharton Lauder program notwithstanding?

IMHO, the most interesting criterion in the ranking is the 'Aims Achieved' - Tuck is #1, Sloan #2, Stanford #3 and that sounds pretty plausible to me.

And very interesting posts, Paul.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 09:09
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Another boring Monday morning at work. So I went ahead and compiled my own rankings, derived from FT, BW and US news. I did not include international schools and the FT ranking is for domestic schools alone.

Overall Rank School Name FT BW US Total
1 Univ of Penn. Wharton 1 2 3 6
2 Harvard Business School 4 4 1 9
3 Stanford University GSB 3 6 2 11
4 University of Chicago GSB 6 1 5 12
5 MIT: Sloan school 5 7 4 16
6 Northwestern Univ:Kellogg 10 3 5 18
7 Columbia Business School 2 10 9 21
8 Dartmouth College: Tuck 8 11 7 26
9 University of Michigan:Ross 13 5 11 29
10 UCa Berkeley: Haas 15 8 8 31
10 New York University:Stern 7 14 10 31
12 Duke University: Fuqua 14 9 12 35
13 UCLA: Anderson 11 12 16 39
14 Yale School of Management 9 19 14 42
15 Universi of Virginia: Darden 16 15 12 43
16 Cornell University: Johnson 17 13 14 44
17 Emory University: Goizueta 12 23 20 55
17 Univ of N Car: Kenan-Flagler 20 17 18 55
19 Georgetown: McDonough 19 22 25 66
20 UniversityMaryland: Smith 18 25 25 68
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 09:44
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I think one should pay more attention to FT rankings if they want to work internationally. Pay attention to US based ranking systems if you plan to work in the US. eg one cannot expect to get as good a job in the US from the "10th best school, Cambridge" but NYU or the like, which is in the top 10 in a typical US based ranking is more suitable.

FT.com ranking are called global rankings since they are just that.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 10:43
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solaris1

And I find it slightly ridiculous to insinuate that a program that one has never heard of cannot be a quality one. It's like saying a small liberal arts college you've never heard of can't give you as good, if not better, an undergraduate education as the Ivy League - which is certainly not true.
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Completely agree.

solaris1

Would schools in the developing world show a greater salary increase than ones in the developed world? Maybe, but that shouldn't be an outlier because most MBA's from such school would stay on to work in the same economy. So a 150% increase in salary for someone who finished an MBA in India or China and decided to stay on and work in India or China, is indeed impressive.
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I definitely think this criteria that should have a smaller weight associated with it. 20% just seems way too much. Most of the folks joining ISB join with salaries in the range of $10,000 to $30,000 ( a rough estimate given current salaries in India). The average salary for ISB graduates working in India is Rs 15,03,000, which roughly translates to about $37,500 with $1 = Rs 40 (source: https://www.isb.edu/pgp/PlacementStatistics.Shtml?menuid=108). The average international salary on the other hand is $1,35,000. Obviously, this component is severely skewing the '% salary increase' criteria. So, IMO, the school is getting an unfair leg up in the rankings due to the fact that most of the incoming students have lower incoming salaries.
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KK - I think for every ISB grad who takes $135,000 position abroad, there's another US or European MBA grad who takes a $35,000 position in his/her home country.

I think in the larger scheme of things these are just exceptions and they should all balance out and not affect the "% salary increase" average significantly.

KingKREEP
I definitely think this criteria that should have a smaller weight associated with it. 20% just seems way too much. Most of the folks joining ISB join with salaries in the range of $10,000 to $30,000 ( a rough estimate given current salaries in India). The average salary for ISB graduates working in India is Rs 15,03,000, which roughly translates to about $37,500 with $1 = Rs 40 (source: https://www.isb.edu/pgp/PlacementStatistics.Shtml?menuid=108). The average international salary on the other hand is $1,35,000. Obviously, this component is severely skewing the '% salary increase' criteria. So, IMO, the school is getting an unfair leg up in the rankings due to the fact that most of the incoming students have lower incoming salaries.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 11:18
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solaris1
KK - I think for every ISB grad who takes $135,000 position abroad, there's another US or European MBA grad who takes a $35,000 position in his/her home country.
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Hmm, I would have to disagree. At UE and E schools such as Kellogg, Ross, CMU and UCLA, the number of graduates with $35,000 starting salaries would be minimal at best. And $35,000 is most definitely not the average. It would have to be among the lowest, if not the lowest at these schools. On the other hand, $1,35,000 was the average international salary, and not the highest by any means. The highest was an astronomical $2,69,000. So I don't think that these would balance themselves out. I picked these schools in particular because they were all ranked lower than ISB in this ranking. My point is merely this: attaching a 20% weight to '% salary increase' which is dependent on a whole lot of other factors other than just the quality of school results in rankings that are best considered with a fistful of salt.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 11:28
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I should have clarified further, what I meant was there's a handful of international students at US/European b-schools who after graduation take up a position in their home country at $35,000 etc. Just as there are a handful of ISB grads who take up 135,000+ positions abroad. If you look at Kellogg's 2007 salary range, you'll find a number of folks making between $38,000 and $50,000.

And for what it's worth, I haven't seen ISB disclose how many graduates received six-figure USD salary packages.

But nevertheless, I see the point you're trying to make and I think it's a reasonably valid observation.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 11:32
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typed a longish post that disappeared... brr... :evil:

But anyway, my main points were:

1. Salaries - hurts schools that are not MC/IB powerhouses. Imagine someone with a decent IT salary going to non-profit at a strong non-profit school (e.g. Haas)... they get a salary *decrease* that hurts them in the rankings

2. International - For European and Asian schools, it's a LOT easier to get international students because of the small sizes of the countries (China and India excluded). In the US, each major state has about the same population of many countries out there, and have a culture of their own (even though we speak the same language). If you really look at the regions that each school tries to piece together, 30-40% international + multiple regions (West, Central, East, South) make US business schools quite diverse and a good learning environment. FT does not take that into account. Just because you're from a different country does not mean you get to learn that much more than US schools.

3. I do think having a 2nd language requirement would be good. :) I'm all for internationalizing schools, but I don't think that should be part of the rankings.

My 2 cents.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 11:45
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I still fail to see how they cancel each other out. Let's quantify the 'handful' as 10. When these 10 internationals graduate from US/European B-schools and go back home to work, I think we can safely assume that however low the new salaries, they aren't lower than their pre-MBA salaries. So, the "% salary increase" is, at best, impacted positively by a very small amount, or at the worst, not impacted at all. However, the 10 guys from ISB who were getting $30,000 before the MBA, now with $1,35,000 jobs, will impact the "% salary increase" much more significantly. So, all else being equal (people joining Kellogg with $80,000 and graduating with $1,40,000 and people joining ISB with $20,000 and graduating with $35,000), that 'handful' gave ISB an arguably unfair advantage in the rankings. Ok, enough time spent on this! All said and done, I guess we both agree with the final point :-)
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 15:15
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kundan77
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wow what a load of bull ! LOL

Ceibs??? ..

China Europe International Business School

CEIBS develops managers who are quite valuable to those (industries/firms) interested in doing business in China. CEIBS grads may not be the smartest but they do have right skill-sets for Chinese market. Also, EU & Shanghai Municipal Corporation keep pouring millions of $$$ to the school which helps it attract the world-class faculties. And yes, the school does have excellent infra-structure.

IMO, gone are the days when we studied for an MBA in one school, in one campus for 2 years. Cross-border training is becoming more and more relevant for a 'complete' business education.
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Amen to that!

Will defo try to shoot for an semester outside of my "home" MBA school.

Asia probably the way to go now.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 15:26
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branson
Amen to that!

Will defo try to shoot for an semester outside of my "home" MBA school.

Asia probably the way to go now.
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I will probably end up doing the opposite. End up in Asia and exchange to the USA for a semester :lol:
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 15:31
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They Ding me and now send me a mail showing off their ranking !

I believe ISB benefits out of :
1. A huge supply-demand mismatch - ISB is the only decent b-school in India that gives weightage to folks with signficant experience....lots and lots of folks are keen to return to India to benefit out of the strong economy there....with plenty to choose from, they can have their pick on folks with the heaviest GMAT scores. I believe they will inch towards 720 GMAT average this year. There is a huge demand for good b-schools in India and the Govt is slow to increase the number of IIMs that the country desperately needs.
2. Heavy-weights in the board (Rajat Gupta - Global MD,McKinsey).
3. Regulation by Indian Govt that makes it difficult for foreign Univs to set up shop in India. This appears to be changing, with recent news that Oxford will be setting up a campus in India providing exec-education programs.

I believe if enough schools with a similar structure (1Yr MBA, accept GMAT, strong placements) start in India, ISB's situation will definitely be different. Although some have tried (e.g. Great Lakes started by Kellogg Prof.), it is difficult to get the kind of corporate pull that ISB has enjoyed.

max125
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I have received a email from the Director of Admissions, ISB informing me about the schools debut at 20th ranking in FT.
And it was a shabby looking email. They should have added some more substance in the mail. :)..Like visit us, learn about us, apply to our program etc.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 15:48
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How about a new ranking:

Business Schools mentioned in popular TV series.

Ari from Entourage has a JD-MBA from Michigan. Here's a reason to go to Ross! 8-) 8-) 8-)
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 16:33
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dosa_don
Another boring Monday morning at work. So I went ahead and compiled my own rankings, derived from FT, BW and US news. I did not include international schools and the FT ranking is for domestic schools alone.

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I have saved your rankings as a picture - the forum messes up the tables - thanks for putting it together!
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 16:48
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should we add WSJ or Forbes rankings too?
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 16:52
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I have them at work Kry- I can send over the spreadsheet tomorrow. I might not have the full WSJ rankings but shall put it out.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 17:08
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i was just curious since we're combining all the rankings. I generally just combine US News and BW, as the other ones are a bit suspect in their methods.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 19:19
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Thing is, the FT charts will be highly influential to Europeans seeking an MBA. Particularly because a lot of people who start researching MBA's are unaware of some of the names. They will see these charts and assume there is some merit to it. Heck, some people will even choose which schools to apply to based on the rankings.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 19:46
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I think if you are going to combine the rankings to see the overall standing, some definitely need to be weighted more than the others. I mean USnews is considered the true representation, and BW is the second best. The others are accurate with some schools and way off with others.
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New FT Rankings are out 28 Jan 2008, 21:54
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Here is the spreadsheet updated with 6 different rankings. I have added some weights to the rankings on the top and you could play around with them to see if it makes much of a difference. I have set USNews to 40% and BW to 20% and the rest to 10%.

Just a couple of notes:

1. In the Forbes rankings, Ross did not participate.
2. In the EIU rankings, UCLA and Kelley were missing.

For these situations, I left the default ranking as it is in the US News (and this is highlighted yellow in the spreadsheet). If anyone has a better idea to work around it, feel free to make changes.

Also, for FT and EIU rankings, I excluded all non-US schools and then ranked them again.

Lastly- I had to enter a lot of the data manually, except in a couple of places. So...human error is possible :)

Hope this helps!! :)
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