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Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a

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Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Nov 2006, 23:20
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Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.

(A) Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected

(B) Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected

(C) It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting

(D) The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected

(E) The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 09 Oct 2013, 14:52
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NewKid123 wrote:
Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Dear NewKid123
I'm happy to help with this one. :-) I like this question. What's the source?

(A) we have a modifier "seldom more than ..." in parallel with an independent clause "it ran ....", a failure of parallelism. Then, we get a run-on sentence --- two independent clauses separated only by a comma. See:
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/916-run-on-sentences
This choice is incorrect.

(B) [modifier] "but" [modifier], [subject][verb] .... all correct. This is promising.

(C) "It was ..." (independent clause), "and ran" (verb in parallel, so far, so good), "but the Erie canal" [modifier][modifier]
This is a failure of parallelism --- after that comma and "but", we need either a full verb or a complete independent clause, and we get neither. For more on parallelism, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/parallelis ... orrection/
This is incorrect.

(D) Misplaced modifier!! A classic mistake!! "... the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo ..." The canal did that connecting, not the wilderness of upstate NY. The canal is the intended modifier, but the modifier is nowhere near the canal. This is a violation of the Modifier Touch Rule --- see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

(E) The missing verb mistake!! Another oldie but goodie!! This choice has modifier after modifier --- it has a perfectly good subject, "The Erie Canal" at the beginning, but this subject has absolutely no verb. There is no full verb anywhere in the sentence, only participial modifiers. See
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/914-the ... rb-mistake

Thus, the only completely correct choice, and hence the only possible answer, is (B).

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 10 Aug 2010, 06:03
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this question is from OG, but there is an editing error in it, option B should be (40 feet wide AND 12 feet deep) if you look at the answer explanation you'll see B written with AND.
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jun 2011, 07:24
what about the difference between 'and' / 'or' here? is that not taken in account.

B looks the most appropriate answer. But what about the use of 'or' instead of the original 'and', if its appropriate?
Can someone explain this.
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jun 2011, 07:52
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agdimple333 wrote:
what about the difference between 'and' / 'or' here? is that not taken in account.

B looks the most appropriate answer. But what about the use of 'or' instead of the original 'and', if its appropriate?
Can someone explain this.


Your argument is perfectly valid. They both convey different meaning.

Usage of OR means: The canal is rarely 12 ft deep OR 40 ft wide. e.g. 90% of the places the canal is less than 12 ft deep and 90% of the places the canal is less than 40 ft wide. Maybe they are never 12ft deep and 40ft wide at the same place.

Usage of AND means: 10% of the time they are BOTH 12 ft deep and 40 ft wide, and 90% of the time these conditions are not satisfied simultaneously.

Despite conveying different meanings, both the usages are considered grammatically correct.

But, we actually don't know what the author really wanted to say because the entire portion was UNDERLINED. Thus, we must consider other indicators to prove the statement wrong.

Considering all grammatical indicators and errors, we eliminated everything but "B".

If we had the following two statements as the options, it would be ambiguous.

Seldom more than 40 feet wide OR 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected

OR

Seldom more than 40 feet wide AND 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected.
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 09 Oct 2013, 23:34
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mikemcgarry wrote:
NewKid123 wrote:
Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Dear NewKid123
I'm happy to help with this one. :-) I like this question. What's the source?

(A) we have a modifier "seldom more than ..." in parallel with an independent clause "it ran ....", a failure of parallelism. Then, we get a run-on sentence --- two independent clauses separated only by a comma. See:
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/916-run-on-sentences
This choice is incorrect.

(B) [modifier] "but" [modifier], [subject][verb] .... all correct. This is promising.

(C) "It was ..." (independent clause), "and ran" (verb in parallel, so far, so good), "but the Erie canal" [modifier][modifier]
This is a failure of parallelism --- after that comma and "but", we need either a full verb or a complete independent clause, and we get neither. For more on parallelism, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/parallelis ... orrection/
This is incorrect.

(D) Misplaced modifier!! A classic mistake!! "... the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo ..." The canal did that connecting, not the wilderness of upstate NY. The canal is the intended modifier, but the modifier is nowhere near the canal. This is a violation of the Modifier Touch Rule --- see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

(E) The missing verb mistake!! Another oldie but goodie!! This choice has modifier after modifier --- it has a perfectly good subject, "The Erie Canal" at the beginning, but this subject has absolutely no verb. There is no full verb anywhere in the sentence, only participial modifiers. See
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/914-the ... rb-mistake

Thus, the only completely correct choice, and hence the only possible answer, is (B).

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)

Hi, I chose B as my answer but later realised that B changes the meaning. In the original sentence the canal is 40ft wide and 12ft deep, but in B the canal is 40ft wide or 12ft wide? Isnt this supposed to be a deal breaker since the meaning changed?
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 10 Oct 2013, 11:16
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mahendru1992 wrote:
Hi, I chose B as my answer but later realised that B changes the meaning. In the original sentence the canal is 40ft wide and 12ft deep, but in B the canal is 40ft wide or 12ft wide? Isn't this supposed to be a deal breaker since the meaning changed?

Dear mahendru1992,
I happy to respond. :-) Here's the question again.

Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than
wide and 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than
wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Hmmm. I don't think I'm seeing what you see. I don't see the words "wide" and "deep" swapped anywhere.

I will say, that, if the question did swap these words, that would be kinda a dirty cheap trick. The GMAT will not do that do you, nor will any better-quality GMAT test prep source. I don't know the source of this question, but the question itself appears to be of very high quality.

When GMAT SC answer choices "switch meaning", it's not a niggling cheap word-swap such as that. No, the "changes in meaning" often have to do with more subtle logical issues. For example, consider this sentence:
The state of Maine, in the extreme northeast corner of the continental United States, shares land borders with two Canadian provinces, Quebec and New Brunswick, but only is adjacent with one state, New Hampshire.
(A) only is adjacent with one
(B) is adjacent only with one
(C) is adjacent to only one other
(D) only is adjacent to one
(E) is only adjacent to one other

You can read more about this question, and the OA, at:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/logical-pr ... orrection/
Technically, there are subtle changes in meaning among the answer choices, although some folks might recognize that there's any difference in meaning. We can tell what the sentence is trying to say, and the job is to figure out the correct way to say it. That's most often the kind of "change in meaning" challenge the GMAT SC presents.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 10 Oct 2013, 11:44
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mikemcgarry wrote:
mahendru1992 wrote:
Hi, I chose B as my answer but later realised that B changes the meaning. In the original sentence the canal is 40ft wide and 12ft deep, but in B the canal is 40ft wide or 12ft wide? Isn't this supposed to be a deal breaker since the meaning changed?

Dear mahendru1992,
I happy to respond. :-) Here's the question again.

Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet
wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than
wide and 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than
wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Hmmm. I don't think I'm seeing what you see. I don't see the words "wide" and "deep" swapped anywhere.

I will say, that, if the question did swap these words, that would be kinda a dirty cheap trick. The GMAT will not do that do you, nor will any better-quality GMAT test prep source. I don't know the source of this question, but the question itself appears to be of very high quality.


Hi thanks for replying. :D But what i mean is if you look at the original question which has the following line "Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep but if you look at option B "Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep". How does this make sense? I'm sorry if i'm nitpicking and if the meaning is obvious, I don't get it.
P.S The question that you posted in your reply has and in option b. So could the original question have a typo by any chance?
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New post 10 Oct 2013, 16:41
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mahendru1992 wrote:
Hi thanks for replying. :D But what i mean is if you look at the original question which has the following line "Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep but if you look at option B "Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep". How does this make sense? I'm sorry if i'm nitpicking and if the meaning is obvious, I don't get it.
P.S The question that you posted in your reply has and in option b. So could the original question have a typo by any chance?

Ah! I didn't notice the and/or distinction. This is a perfect example of changing the meaning to what the sentence is trying to say.

The sentence is trying to say ----
The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide
and also
The Erie Canal is seldom more than 12 feet deep
That's the intended meaning. It is trying to say that each one of those conditions is true. How do we say that in combined form?

This is a very common mistake --- combining negative statements (the word "seldom" is a mild negative). People think that because there's an "and" between the two overall ideas, there should be an "and" between the individual elements. This is WRONG.
The sentence
"The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep"
technically implies: What's rare is the combination, the stretches where the canal is simultaneously more than 40 feet wide and more than 12 feet deep. It's only a statement about the combination stretches, where both conditions are met. In other words, this sentence allows for all kinds of stretches where it is much wider than 40, as long as its shallow, or much deeper than 12, as long as its narrow. That's what is allowed by this phrasing, and this is not what the sentence is trying to say. The sentence is trying to say that (1) the condition "more than 40 feet wide" is a rare condition, and separately, (2) the condition "more than 12 feet deep" is a rare condition. Both are rare individually --- it's not the combination that's important at all. The correct way to convey this is:
"The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep"

Similarly,
One cannot vote if one is under 18. True.
One cannot vote if one has a felony record. True.
How do we combine these into a single true statement. Many people make the mistake:
One cannot vote if one is under 18 and has a felony record.
That would be an illogical statement saying that the only folks forbidden to vote would be teenagers with felony records, a rare group. According to that red sentence, teenagers with no criminal record and felons over the age of 18 both would be allowed to vote, which is blatantly untrue.
The correct way to say this is:
One cannot vote if one is under 18 or has a felony record.

If the GMAT gives a mistake structure in the original, the job is to figure out the correct way to communicate what the original sentence is trying to say. The "not ... and" structure is almost always a mistake: see OG13, SC #21.

I hadn't noticed this split --- this increases my respect for this question even further. :-)

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 18 Apr 2014, 11:29
mikemcgarry wrote:
NewKid123 wrote:
Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Dear NewKid123
I'm happy to help with this one. :-) I like this question. What's the source?

(A) we have a modifier "seldom more than ..." in parallel with an independent clause "it ran ....", a failure of parallelism. Then, we get a run-on sentence --- two independent clauses separated only by a comma. See:
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/916-run-on-sentences
This choice is incorrect.

(B) [modifier] "but" [modifier], [subject][verb] .... all correct. This is promising.

(C) "It was ..." (independent clause), "and ran" (verb in parallel, so far, so good), "but the Erie canal" [modifier][modifier]
This is a failure of parallelism --- after that comma and "but", we need either a full verb or a complete independent clause, and we get neither. For more on parallelism, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/parallelis ... orrection/
This is incorrect.

(D) Misplaced modifier!! A classic mistake!! "... the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo ..." The canal did that connecting, not the wilderness of upstate NY. The canal is the intended modifier, but the modifier is nowhere near the canal. This is a violation of the Modifier Touch Rule --- see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

(E) The missing verb mistake!! Another oldie but goodie!! This choice has modifier after modifier --- it has a perfectly good subject, "The Erie Canal" at the beginning, but this subject has absolutely no verb. There is no full verb anywhere in the sentence, only participial modifiers. See
http://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/914-the ... rb-mistake

Thus, the only completely correct choice, and hence the only possible answer, is (B).

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hi Mike,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Question for you:
A) You state there is a run on sentence - where is the run on? The information after ",providing" doesn't have an independent clause since it's a -ing verb. Am I missing something here?
B) I actually chose this answer because it looked best but the more I look at it, isn't there a parallelism issue -- "Seldom more than ... but ...running 363 miles" - Isn't it an independent clause and then running starts with a verb?

Thanks!

EDIT: Another trick I used(which i'm not sure is valid) is whenever I saw the sentence begin with a pronoun or if the sentence had a pronoun before the antecedent, I automatically eliminated it. I figured that the antecedent has to come BEFORE the pronoun. Therefore, I eliminated A & C. Is that a false assumption I made?
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New post 18 Apr 2014, 14:17
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russ9 wrote:
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Question for you:
A) You state there is a run on sentence - where is the run on? The information after ",providing" doesn't have an independent clause since it's a -ing verb. Am I missing something here?
B) I actually chose this answer because it looked best but the more I look at it, isn't there a parallelism issue -- "Seldom more than ... but ...running 363 miles" - Isn't it an independent clause and then running starts with a verb?

Thanks!

EDIT: Another trick I used (which i'm not sure is valid) is whenever I saw the sentence begin with a pronoun or if the sentence had a pronoun before the antecedent, I automatically eliminated it. I figured that the antecedent has to come BEFORE the pronoun. Therefore, I eliminated A & C. Is that a false assumption I made?

Dear russ9,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

1) the run-on in choice (A)
It ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo.
That's a run-on sentence with a comma-splice, a classic mistake pattern.

2) in the OA, choice (B):
//Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep
but
//running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York
Those are two parallel noun-modifier. Either one could be used alone to modify "the Erie Canal":
Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep, the Erie Canal ...
Running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal ...


3) Your trick will usually work, but in certain cases, it could run into math. You see, the antecedent can come after the pronoun under certain circumstances. For example, it can generate rhetorical tension to mention a pronoun in the first clause, inducing curiosity in the reader. A skilled writer might use this to create momentum --- the curiosity impels the reader to know more. For example, if I begin:
Though he was one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century, ...
That opening leaves the reader with a sense of curiosity: who is the writer going to name? what kind of ironic contrast will be communicated? Here's the whole sentence:
Though he was one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century, Einstein struggled with math throughout his life.
That sentence is grammatically correct and rhetorically sophisticated, and yet the pronoun comes before its antecedent.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 12 Mar 2015, 17:26
Hello Folks,

I have 2 questions:

(a) I see in option A, there is a usage of comma+but and in option B there is no comma.
Seems like comma+but is not correct. Can anyone tell me if there are come specific rules for this?

A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected

(b) i) Can 2 noun modifier modify the subject?
ii) Can the 'noun modifier 1' modify the subject and 'noun modifier 2' modify the fluff?

Example:
<noun modifier 1> , <noun modifier 2> , < Subject + verb+ fluff >

Thank you
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New post 13 Mar 2015, 11:20
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1
nitestr wrote:
Hello Folks,

I have 2 questions:

(a) I see in option A, there is a usage of comma+but and in option B there is no comma.
Seems like comma+but is not correct. Can anyone tell me if there are come specific rules for this?

A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected

(b) i) Can 2 noun modifier modify the subject?
ii) Can the 'noun modifier 1' modify the subject and 'noun modifier 2' modify the fluff?

Example:
<noun modifier 1> , <noun modifier 2> , < Subject + verb+ fluff >

Thank you

Dear nitestr,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, for your first question, I would say you are focusing on the wrong thing. In (A), we get
[noun modifier]-[comma]-"but"-[clause]
In general, we would use a comma to separate one clause from another. The problem with (A) is that it seems to be putting a simple noun modifier in parallel with an entire clause. This is a catastrophe of parallelism: that's the problem, not the comma.

In (B), we have
[noun modifier #1]-[no comma]-"but"-[noun modifier #2]
There's not a hard-and-fast rule here. In general, if the two noun-modifiers are relatively short, as they are here, then we don't need the comma. If the noun modifiers are long, with several more phrases & clauses inside them, then we might need the comma to show organization and direction in the larger flow of the sentence. To some extent, it has to do with how someone would speak the sentence --- if a slight pause is indicated in speech, then we use a comma. Ultimately, all comma rules reflect spoken language.

For the second question, (2 i), first of all, yes, in the OA, (B), that's exactly what we have: two noun modifiers, in parallel, modifying the subject.
[noun modifier #1:]Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep
but

[noun modifier #2:]running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York,
the Erie Canal connected . . .

Both noun modifiers modify the subject, the "Erie Canal."

But (2 ii) could we have two modifiers at the beginning, one modifying the subject, and one modifying a noun that comes after the verb? No. Remember the Modifier Touch Rule. If noun modifier #1 modifiers the subject and noun modifier #2 modifies the object, then our sentence structure would have to be something more like . .
[modifier #1][subject][verb][object][noun modifier #2].
Each modifier touching the noun it modifies.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 13 Mar 2015, 14:50
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the great reply.

Another question: In the below case can both the noun modifier modify an object in the clause which comes after?
<noun modifier1>,<noun modifier2>,<subject+verb, object>

I'm just trying to think of all possible ways noun modifier could jump and modify something in the main clause.

Thanks
:)
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New post 13 Mar 2015, 15:58
nitestr wrote:
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the great reply.

Another question: In the below case can both the noun modifier modify an object in the clause which comes after?
<noun modifier1>,<noun modifier2>,<subject+verb, object>

I'm just trying to think of all possible ways noun modifier could jump and modify something in the main clause.

Thanks
:)

Dear nitestr,
My friend, you need to understand the Modifier Touch Rule and its few legitimate exceptions. You are making up wild cases that completely depart from the rules of grammar. Noun modifiers don't jump unpredictably: there are only a few very specific exceptions to the Touch Rule. You need to understand the basics inside-out before you invent scenarios on your own. See.
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers ... orrection/
Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 07 Jul 2015, 02:20
NewKid123 wrote:
Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting




Hi mike, i went through your run on sentence explanation, however i still couldn't understand why comma change the meaning drastically for answer choice A.

I understand that Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep is a modifier + ,But - an other modifier it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate new York, the subject ( The Erie Canal)

are you saying that the problem here is first one is a fragment and thus we can't connect it by comma...

its has to be ---independent clause + conjunction without comma independent clause?

Or fragment , + conjunction + independent clause ( it's a wrong usage--it think this would be reason)

I'm confused...could any one help?
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New post 07 Jul 2015, 10:54
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jaspreets wrote:
NewKid123 wrote:
Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River at Albany to the Great Lakes at Buffalo, providing the port of New York City with a direct water link to the heartland of the North American continent.
A. Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
B. Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, the Erie Canal connected
C. It was seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, and ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, but the Erie Canal, connecting
D. The Erie Canal was seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep and it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, which connected
E. The Erie Canal, seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but running 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York, connecting

Hi mike, i went through your run on sentence explanation, however i still couldn't understand why comma change the meaning drastically for answer choice A.

I understand that Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep is a modifier + ,But - an other modifier it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate new York, the subject ( The Erie Canal)

are you saying that the problem here is first one is a fragment and thus we can't connect it by comma...

its has to be ---independent clause + conjunction without comma independent clause?

Or fragment , + conjunction + independent clause ( it's a wrong usage--it think this would be reason)

I'm confused...could any one help?

Dear jaspreets,
I'm happy to respond. :-) I don't know whether you read my March 13, 2015 comment to nitestr. The problem with (A), ultimately, is not a comma, but a trainwreck of parallelism.
"Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep" = this is an adjectival phrase, a noun-modifying phrase, and this can properly modify a noun.
"it ran 363 miles across the rugged wilderness of upstate New York" = this is NOT a modifier. This is not a fragment. This is an independent clause: in fact, what I quote here could be a separate stand-alone sentence all by itself. It has a full subject, a pronoun, and a full verb. This is a 100% bonafide independent clause.

Forget about the comma. The comma is not the issue. Completely forget about the comma. The word "but" is a parallelism marker. We can't put a modifying phrase in parallel with an independent clause. In parallelism, the two elements have to match in grammatical structure: we could have two modifying phrases in parallel (and this is precisely what (B) has), or we could have two independent clauses in parallel, but we can't put mismatched things in parallel. That's the issue, not the comma.

Does this make sense?
Mike
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New post 24 May 2016, 11:42
Hi Mike,
I am still not convinced why "or" and not "and"
Canal has to be both wide and deep it can't be just one of these!
The question is from OG13/16 Diagnostic test and in the official explanation of why D is wrong here's what is written

""Logical predication; Grammatical construction
The phrase seldom. ..deep is the first half of a modifier that describes theErie Canal. However, because a comma incorrectly follows deep, this phrase appears to be the entire modifier, which must agree with the noun or pronoun that immediately follows it. This phrase cannot modify the conjunction but, and // has no referent; but it ran is not a logical or grammatical construction following the modifying phrase. Substituting running for it ran creates an adjective phrase parallel to the first adjective phrase {seldom...deep). To contrast the small size reported in the first phrase with the great distance reported in the second, the two phrases may be joined with but; together they create a single modifier correctly modifying the ErieCanal. TheErieCanal is then the subject of the sentence and requires the verb connected to provide a logical statement.
A But it ran cannot logically or grammatically follow the modifying phrase.
B Correct. This sentence properly has the single modifier consisting of two contrasting parts.
C Neither and nor but acts as a logical connector; the use of connecting results in a sentence fragment.
D The paired concepts of width and depth should be joined by and, not or; this construction calls for two main clauses to be separated by a comma after deep; which is ambiguous.
E The two halves of the modifier should not be separated by a comma after deep; the subject is awkwardly and confusingly placed at a great distance from the predicate; the use of connecting rather than connected creates a sentence fragment.
The correct answer is B.""

So if we look at the explanation of option D it clearly says "width and depth should be joined by and, not or" please can you clarify this
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New post 24 May 2016, 14:36
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geek_mnnit wrote:
Hi Mike,
I am still not convinced why "or" and not "and"
Canal has to be both wide and deep it can't be just one of these!
The question is from OG13/16 Diagnostic test and in the official explanation of why D is wrong here's what is written

""Logical predication; Grammatical construction
The phrase seldom. ..deep is the first half of a modifier that describes theErie Canal. However, because a comma incorrectly follows deep, this phrase appears to be the entire modifier, which must agree with the noun or pronoun that immediately follows it. This phrase cannot modify the conjunction but, and // has no referent; but it ran is not a logical or grammatical construction following the modifying phrase. Substituting running for it ran creates an adjective phrase parallel to the first adjective phrase {seldom...deep). To contrast the small size reported in the first phrase with the great distance reported in the second, the two phrases may be joined with but; together they create a single modifier correctly modifying the ErieCanal. TheErieCanal is then the subject of the sentence and requires the verb connected to provide a logical statement.
A But it ran cannot logically or grammatically follow the modifying phrase.
B Correct. This sentence properly has the single modifier consisting of two contrasting parts.
C Neither and nor but acts as a logical connector; the use of connecting results in a sentence fragment.
D The paired concepts of width and depth should be joined by and, not or; this construction calls for two main clauses to be separated by a comma after deep; which is ambiguous.
E The two halves of the modifier should not be separated by a comma after deep; the subject is awkwardly and confusingly placed at a great distance from the predicate; the use of connecting rather than connected creates a sentence fragment.
The correct answer is B.""

So if we look at the explanation of option D it clearly says "width and depth should be joined by and, not or" please can you clarify this

Dear geek_mnnit,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, it's very important to appreciate the incalculably vast difference between official questions and official explanations. Any question in a current or recent OG is retired from the GMAT. Before it gets to the GMAT, it would go through one of the most rigorous psychometric testing procedures on the face of the earth. The questions that survive this procedure are truly elite, and when these elite questions retire, they find their way into the OGs. By contrast, the explanations are only written once the question is put in the OG. It's not clear whether these explanations have any kind of quality control at all. They are written by different people from those who original wrote the questions. The explanations are sometimes solid, sometimes poor, and occasionally just plain wrong.

Here, the OE is just plain wrong. What is printed for (D) is a mistake, and it contradicts the fact that the "or" construction appears in the OA.

The questions in the OG are some of the best in the world, and they have been subject to some of the most rigorous quality control on earth. The explanations, printed in the same volume, undergo no quality control at all: in fact, I and many of the experts on this site easily can write better explanations than those in the OG. It is very hard to write questions as good as those in the OG. It is relatively easy to write explanations that are better than those in the OG.

In this question, the word "seldom" is a negative. The words "and" and "or" are very tricky with negatives. Think about a real world example. Here are two very common sense observations.
It is not legal to drive a car if one is blind.
It is not legal to drive a car if one is drunk.

Those are both true, and for concision, we want to combine them. Here are two possibilities.
Choice #1: It is not legal to drive a car if one is blind and drunk.
Choice #2: It is not legal to drive a car if one is blind or drunk.
Those two have different meanings. Consider these four cases:
Case A: Driver with perfect vision who is sober
Case B: Driver with perfect vision who is drunk
Case C: Blind driver who is sober
Case D: Blind driver who is drunk
Choice #1 prohibits case D only. Choice #2 prohibits cases B, C, and C, allowing only A. Obviously, Case A is the only category of people who should be actually operating vehicles on the road! Thus, choice #2, the OR case, is the proper combination.

Even though "seldom" is a less intensive negative, it is still a negative logically, so it demands the OR structure in a similar way in this question about the Erie Canal.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a  [#permalink]

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New post 18 Mar 2017, 11:49
mikemcgarry wrote:
mahendru1992 wrote:
Hi thanks for replying. :D But what i mean is if you look at the original question which has the following line "Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep but if you look at option B "Seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep". How does this make sense? I'm sorry if i'm nitpicking and if the meaning is obvious, I don't get it.
P.S The question that you posted in your reply has and in option b. So could the original question have a typo by any chance?

Ah! I didn't notice the and/or distinction. This is a perfect example of changing the meaning to what the sentence is trying to say.

The sentence is trying to say ----
The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide
and also
The Erie Canal is seldom more than 12 feet deep
That's the intended meaning. It is trying to say that each one of those conditions is true. How do we say that in combined form?

This is a very common mistake --- combining negative statements (the word "seldom" is a mild negative). People think that because there's an "and" between the two overall ideas, there should be an "and" between the individual elements. This is WRONG.
The sentence
"The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep"
technically implies: What's rare is the combination, the stretches where the canal is simultaneously more than 40 feet wide and more than 12 feet deep. It's only a statement about the combination stretches, where both conditions are met. In other words, this sentence allows for all kinds of stretches where it is much wider than 40, as long as its shallow, or much deeper than 12, as long as its narrow. That's what is allowed by this phrasing, and this is not what the sentence is trying to say. The sentence is trying to say that (1) the condition "more than 40 feet wide" is a rare condition, and separately, (2) the condition "more than 12 feet deep" is a rare condition. Both are rare individually --- it's not the combination that's important at all. The correct way to convey this is:
"The Erie Canal is seldom more than 40 feet wide or 12 feet deep"

Similarly,
One cannot vote if one is under 18. True.
One cannot vote if one has a felony record. True.
How do we combine these into a single true statement. Many people make the mistake:
One cannot vote if one is under 18 and has a felony record.
That would be an illogical statement saying that the only folks forbidden to vote would be teenagers with felony records, a rare group. According to that red sentence, teenagers with no criminal record and felons over the age of 18 both would be allowed to vote, which is blatantly untrue.
The correct way to say this is:
One cannot vote if one is under 18 or has a felony record.

If the GMAT gives a mistake structure in the original, the job is to figure out the correct way to communicate what the original sentence is trying to say. The "not ... and" structure is almost always a mistake: see OG13, SC #21.

I hadn't noticed this split --- this increases my respect for this question even further. :-)

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


Sorry mikemcgarry, I don't buy your take on the "and" vs. "or". This answer/explanation is blasphemous IMO. I know we're not "allowed" to say that the GMAC/GMAT is trying to trick us, but let's spare the political correctness.
> There SHOULD be a meaning error here b/c if I am talking about a specific canal (let's call it Canal X) that is 40 ft wide AND 12 ft deep, this canal WILL BE DIFFERENT than another one (i.e. Canal Y) that is 40 ft wide OR 12 ft deep. That is, if a canal is 40ft wide AND 12ft deep, there is no way it can ALSO be 40ft wide OR 12ft deep.

There is no escaping this logic
Re: Seldom more than 40 feet wide and 12 feet deep, but it ran 363 miles a &nbs [#permalink] 18 Mar 2017, 11:49

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