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agold
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Shortening my list 28 Mar 2008, 19:43
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rhyme
Quote:

My career goals are to enter private equity (preferably growth equity rather than LBOs) or late stage
venture capital. If I am unable to enter PE right out of school, I would most likely be interested
in working for a bulge bracket investment bank (primary areas of interest would be healthcare/tech
banking in a San Francisco office).

It is way early to bring this up, but I thought I'd point out that such a plan is often impossible. The problem is simple. Banks come and recruit immediately -- I'd even met people from the GSB who got offers from banks before they even started school! Its that competitive. PE / VC on the other hand, is very very much a "lets see what we need for the summer in March" kind of recruiting. In other words, its essentially impossible to recruit for PE/VC, and if that fails, recruit for IB. The timing just doesn't work (and banks won't give you six months to decide). So, you either have to bite the bullet, accept the risk, go for broke in PE/VC or just nab the IB offer. It comes down to risk tolerance really. Not to be underestimated, its very very hard to sit by and watch all the banks recruit, then all the consulting firms, then all the general management and the marketing roles, then everything else, and watch 60% of your classmates land multiple offers and pick from the litter ("Do I do Barclays in London or Bain in San Fran?") -- all the while you haven't even been to your first interview yet.

Not that any of this helps you with school choice really, but I thought it important to mention. Similarly, although you are likely aware, landing PE or VC is next to impossible (im not tooting my own horn here, I'm just telling it like it is - I admit I was just lucky) and PE in particular, without a banking background, is virtually completely impossible.
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Rhyme,

I read your post a couple of days ago and have given it some serious thought. Overall, I can completely see where you're coming from and I was unaware of how early the IB recruiting timeline was. I may be swayed to target IB for a few years post-MBA, before making the switch to PE. At the same time, I also realize that without risk, there is no reward (unless you happen to be one of those guys who graduated from HYPS, worked at GS LevFin for 2 years, Blackstone for 2 years, and now are at HBS). The one question that is running through my head right now is this - Considering that PE is still my #1 choice, and it is also the field that I have the most knowledge about - should I write my career goal essays for admission targeting PE? I have had quite a bit of direct exposure to guys at a large cap PE shop through my work, and my passion is for joining a middle market PE firm and investing in/building/managing smaller high growth companies. I am not interested in LBOs or any of the other trendy PE strategies that come and go with market fluctuations.

I am worried that the admissions staff, just like almost everyone else, may think that PE is an unrealistic target for me considering my background, and they may choose to ding me based on that. At the same time, I am 100% sure that I could write more compelling essays about why PE and how an MBA will help me get there than I could about why IB (I am looking at IB as a backup plan/stepping stone).
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Shortening my list 29 Mar 2008, 03:08
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Absolutely write about PE if thats where your heart is. Trust me on this one: A passionate essay is a million times better than a boring dispassionate one.

Here's the "scoop". Admissions staff are not evaluating whether or not you are a good fit for industry X or Y or job A B or C. Two very simple reasons: First, they don't work in PE (or marketing or IB or whatever) so they really can't realistically asses your particular odds of gaining a job in that field. Second, they can't really craft a class this way either because the vast majority of people change their plans once they get to school anyway.

So, yes, write about PE if you want to - just make sure you sound passionate -- thats more important than anything else.
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Shortening my list 02 Apr 2008, 21:11
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After visiting UCLA Anderson's campus today and doing a lot of soul searching, I think I've managed to shorten the list myself. Rather than picking schools on brand name/prestige/ranking, I've decided to focus on the following criteria:

1. Schools where I would fit in well
2. Schools located in areas that I would love to spend 2 years
3. My career goals (PE/VC/Entrepeneurship)

And, ta-da. Here's my new list:

1. Wharton
2. Chicago GSB
3. Kellogg
4. Anderson
5. Haas

I recommend anyone who has a huge long list that they are looking to shorten to do what I did - visit a few campuses and do some soul searching. Your list will be shortened in no time :). I'm planning my GSB and Kellogg visits for the end of May and I am really looking forward to them.
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Shortening my list 02 Apr 2008, 21:36
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BRAVO terp! kudos for the great suggestion for future applicants. What you did is very good, what we call the "sniper" approach. 5 is a very manageable list and you can really get to know each school (especially since it's only April!) and write good essays.

I'm glad to see 2 West Coast schools still on there, and I can help you with connections with students and alums from Haas and Anderson if you need them. If I end up at Haas, I'll be your personal tour guide when you come and visit. :wink:

The only thing is, for culture, Kellogg and Chicago are almost opposites of each other. One describes the other as a commuter school/loner atmosphere, the other comes back with "an orgy" to describe the culture. :P You can figure out which one is which. Try to figure out which one you fit in better before you do your applications, and you might save yourself some time. Wharton I don't know much about, but it's funny how your 5 schools is almost the same 5 I looked at (replace W with S). We can definitely talk more as deadlines near. :)

BTW what happened to stanford? :?
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kryzak
BRAVO terp! kudos for the great suggestion for future applicants. What you did is very good, what we call the "sniper" approach. 5 is a very manageable list and you can really get to know each school (especially since it's only April!) and write good essays.

I'm glad to see 2 West Coast schools still on there, and I can help you with connections with students and alums from Haas and Anderson if you need them. If I end up at Haas, I'll be your personal tour guide when you come and visit. :wink:

The only thing is, for culture, Kellogg and Chicago are almost opposites of each other. One describes the other as a commuter school/loner atmosphere, the other comes back with "an orgy" to describe the culture. :P You can figure out which one is which. Try to figure out which one you fit in better before you do your applications, and you might save yourself some time. Wharton I don't know much about, but it's funny how your 5 schools is almost the same 5 I looked at (replace W with S). We can definitely talk more as deadlines near. :)

BTW what happened to stanford? :?
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kryzak -- Thanks again for your insight. I understand that Kellogg and Chicago are almost opposites in terms of culture. I guess I really need to experience this first hand and I plan to do that in the coming months. I have an interesting dilemna with those schools. I feel that I would enjoy Kellogg more and that I would fit in there better, but I also feel that Chicago GSB would provide me with a great deal of the finance background that I lack for PE/VC. I want to work in California upon graduation, but I have a lot of ties to the Chicago area and certainly wouldn't mind spending another 2 years of my life over there before I settle back in California for good :)

With the economy/rise in applications next year, I just feel really down about Harvard and Stanford. Wharton is my reach school for now. As you know, this list is very tentative and further interactions and research will probably change it up a bit. I'm glad I eliminated a whole lot of the schools from my first list though.
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Shortening my list 02 Apr 2008, 22:14
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cool, just curious. You're thinking it through very well (much better than your initial list :wink:), good for you! Feel free to post any questions you may have and we'll do our best to help!
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 06:08
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It looks like you and I are in the same step of this process. Campus visits are expensive, but it is fun and well worth the expense. It is difficult to realize this until you have your first one…I just back from Wharton last week, and I am in love with that place. It has always been at the top of my list, but the trip really opened my eyes. I plan to visit Kellogg/Chicago GSB in May too. I have a feeling Chicago will remain my preference of the two, but I figure I might as well visit both. Same goes for Columbia/NYU; I’m leaning towards NYU now, but the trip should confirm.
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 07:36
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It looks like you and I are in the same step of this process. Campus visits are expensive, but it is fun and well worth the expense. It is difficult to realize this until you have your first one…I just back from Wharton last week, and I am in love with that place. It has always been at the top of my list, but the trip really opened my eyes. I plan to visit Kellogg/Chicago GSB in May too. I have a feeling Chicago will remain my preference of the two, but I figure I might as well visit both. Same goes for Columbia/NYU; I’m leaning towards NYU now, but the trip should confirm.
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Yeah I agree - very well worth it. I did UCLA first because I am local to LA, and I'm going to Chicago around Memorial Day anyway so I'll just go check out those 2 schools. I'm being fairly cheap about it so far :)

Can you tell me more about your visit to Wharton? My current thought process is that I won't visit there unless I get invited to interview. Flights from LA to Philadelphia are quite pricey. I take it with your choice of schools that you're looking to go into Finance?
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 12:38
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The campus visit program is really organized, and the students/adcom are very nice and accomodating. If you do visit, try to go on a Thursday so that you can participate in "MBA Pub". It is a social activity that meets every Thursday for happy hour. Visiters are invited to go for free. My impression of the students is that they are very down-to-earth and social. They also seem willing to help each other out. It is really something you have to experience to fully understand.

BTW, Southwest has cheap flights to Philadelphia (PHL) from LAX.

Yes, I am planning to go into finance, but I met people who wanted to go into MC and GM as well.
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 13:20
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BTW, Southwest has cheap flights to Philadelphia (PHL) from LAX.
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Yes, but flying anything over 2 hours on SW is a painful experience (flew from San Jose to Detroit once... it was ghetto).
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 16:46
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I felt like I was writing some of my own profile when I was reading yours, terp, except for a few differences, e.g. age. I have similar goals although I'm still on the fence on whether my backup to PE/VC would be IB or IM. Even though application season is months away, now that I've got the GMAT out of the way, I'm agonizing over narrowing down my list and which rounds to apply to.

Here's my list so far:(I know, I've got to narrow

R1:

HBS
Stanford
Wharton
Kellogg
Tuck

R2:
UCLA
Haas (or Columbia)
Chicago (maybe)

I'm in SF so I will probably visit Haas and Stanford soon. I'm contemplating a trip back east, or to Chicago, to try and narrow those down. I'm considering UCLA as my backup to the more traditionally higher ranked programs, but I want to learn more about it. Specifically, I'm wondering what you liked/disliked about UCLA, or if anyone else has any thoughts about it.
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Shortening my list 03 Apr 2008, 17:31
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I felt like I was writing some of my own profile when I was reading yours, terp, except for a few differences, e.g. age. I have similar goals although I'm still on the fence on whether my backup to PE/VC would be IB or IM. Even though application season is months away, now that I've got the GMAT out of the way, I'm agonizing over narrowing down my list and which rounds to apply to.

Here's my list so far:(I know, I've got to narrow

R1:

HBS
Stanford
Wharton
Kellogg
Tuck

R2:
UCLA
Haas (or Columbia)
Chicago (maybe)

I'm in SF so I will probably visit Haas and Stanford soon. I'm contemplating a trip back east, or to Chicago, to try and narrow those down. I'm considering UCLA as my backup to the more traditionally higher ranked programs, but I want to learn more about it. Specifically, I'm wondering what you liked/disliked about UCLA, or if anyone else has any thoughts about it.
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cougarblue -- I'm glad my search resonated with someone. Maybe we can bounce ideas off each other as this continues. I am also considering dropping IB/IM as a backup. I believe I'm just going to dive in head first and try to get PE/VC by doing everything I can (including taking unpaid internships during school, etc.). On that note - that's one thing that I really liked about UCLA. UCLA is located in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the country, in my opinion. Most of the top management consultancies, investment banks, PE/VC firms, etc. in Southern California are located within a 5 mile radius of UCLA in Century City/Beverly Hills/Santa Monica. There seem to be endless opportunities for part-time internships during school. I believe something like 60-70% of UCLA alumni stay in Southern California after graduation, and this also makes for a very strong local alumni network in the region. The downside is that the global and East Coast network seems alright at best.

Los Angeles is the 2nd largest economic area in the United States after NYC, and has a very diverse economy (it is not based heavily on just tech or finance like SF and NY). In my opinion, this makes for an excellent market climate for PE/VC firms. Let's not forget the weather, either :). When I visited, I thought that the campus was really impressive. I also felt that the students at UCLA are very laid back, social, team-oriented, and overall have a fun time out here.

Lastly, there is the issue of in-state tuition. If I went to a school like Chicago GSB, which I find is very expensive, I would have to take out significantly more debt to finance my education. I am afraid that this may push me towards IB/IM and more risk averse paths, rather than VC/PE/Entrepeneurship. Financially, I think UCLA in-state is a bargain.

As far as what I dislike about UCLA - the perceived prestige and reputation of the school. It has a very strong reputation in California, but I don't think that many people in DC, Chicago, or NYC would hold it in as high of regard as a school like Chicago, Kellogg, or Wharton.

Gosh, I sound like I'm trying to sell myself on UCLA. :oops: I need to keep an open mind to this whole process. Oh well, I'm sure my thoughts will change as time goes on and I visit more schools.
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Shortening my list 11 Apr 2008, 16:00
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Great info here. Have you talked to UCLA students about recruiting for PE. I'm wondering if a lot of those "local" PE firms still hire the more traditional H/S/W grads. I know this depends on the firm, but any info you have on that would be great. Also, I wonder how many PE firms have internship programs, rather than just hire for full-time. For that reason, I think doing a summer internship in IB, although painful, might be the best course of action to give you the best opportunities for PE full-time.
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Shortening my list Updated on: 11 Apr 2008, 18:53
Originally posted by agold on 11 Apr 2008, 18:40.
Last edited by agold on 11 Apr 2008, 18:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Great info here. Have you talked to UCLA students about recruiting for PE. I'm wondering if a lot of those "local" PE firms still hire the more traditional H/S/W grads. I know this depends on the firm, but any info you have on that would be great. Also, I wonder how many PE firms have internship programs, rather than just hire for full-time. For that reason, I think doing a summer internship in IB, although painful, might be the best course of action to give you the best opportunities for PE full-time.
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Here are my opinions. None of them are through discussions with UCLA staff or Alumni:

1) The larger funds in LA, or anywhere else in the nation (ones that manage over $1B), tend to lean towards H/S/W grads. Smaller funds ($100M-600M AUM especially) or funds that are newly established would tend to hire UCLA grads and other grads from Elite/UE schools. The compensation at smaller funds will not be on par with the larger ones, but it will still be over $200K all-in for your first year (large cap funds should be well over $500K all-in cash first year post-MBA, plus carried interest). Additionally, keep in mind that every small fund has the potential to be large one day, and you have the potential to grow with it. If you are responsible for blockbuster investments early in your career, you will create significant wealth for yourself/investors and a lot more people will trust you and your team when you are raising your 2nd or 3rd fund. Here's a couple examples, and I realize that you have to account for inflation, etc.: https://www.mdcp.com/overview.asp, https://www.leonardgreen.com/History.htm.

2) There are some PE firms that don't even hire out of MBA programs at all. The best way to get into large cap funds is certainly to do your 2 year IB analyst stint and then transition in at a pre-MBA associate level and move on to post-MBA VP role. The PE fund in LA that I respect most is Leonard Green & Partners, and they don't seem to hire any MBAs. They're a small, lean shop full of hitters with an immaculate record of generating high returns for their investors.

3) As far as internships, I think the overwhelming consensus is that 90%+ of PE firms do not have formal internship programs. You will have to reach out directly to firm partners and alumni and hunt down an internship.

4) If you intern at a bulge bracket investment bank, chances are that you will receive an offer at the end of your summer which will have a window of about 1-2 months for you to accept. There will be a tremendous amount of pressure to take this risk averse path rather than hope that you will wind up in PE. My belief at the present time is that if you go into banking post-MBA at the associate level, that you will have to stick it out for at least 3 years and make VP at the bank before you can transition out to a decent role (Vice President) at a PE firm. Even then - this is difficult. It is also difficult to leave behind the compensation you make at the VP level at a bulge bracket firm ($650-900K).
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Shortening my list 11 Apr 2008, 18:47
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Terp,

Thanks for the insights. I am an 09 candidate as well.

How likely do you see the transition from IB (after 2-3 years) into PE/VC? Into either a mid-cap or large-cap firm...

Any insights into this would be great, and thanks in advance!
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Terp,

Thanks for the insights. I am an 09 candidate as well.

How likely do you see the transition from IB (after 2-3 years) into PE/VC? Into either a mid-cap or large-cap firm...

Any insights into this would be great, and thanks in advance!
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Just answered above. It's not common - but possible, from what I know.
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Sorry Terp, missed that post. Thanks for the insights!
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Shortening my list 12 Apr 2008, 15:47
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Terp:

Have you spoken to post-mba PE professionals at some of those funds to form your opinions? I know it's difficult to draw general conclusions about smaller funds since each one is different, but from what I know the larger funds seem to have become a little more institutionalized in recent years. Seeing as how these funds recruit more than a year in advance out of BB IB and M/B/B for pre-MBA positions, I would suspect that these same funds would offer internships or full-time offers earlier than IB at the MBA level (especially since PE and Hedge Funds are going after the same candidates as IB, although the former are more competitive.) Why do you think it would be difficult to leave BB IB after only 1-1.5 years as a post-MBA associate to join a PE fund? Not that this proves anything, but I do know of one counter-example: HBS grad with no pre-MBA PE or IB experience, went to top IB then left after no more than 1 year there to join a large cap fund. Of course, this was in 2006-2007 so we might not expect the same volume of hiring at these firms over the next few years. Setting aside any potential ethical issues (can you really set these aside?) I wonder if there are many who accept IB full-time after summer internships and then reneg to go to PE funds.

I understand the firms that don't hire MBAs, if they're already getting top talent at the pre-MBA level, why not just promote from within? I believe most PE shops are very lean which is why they compensate so high, and are consequently so difficult to get into.
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Terp:

Have you spoken to post-mba PE professionals at some of those funds to form your opinions? I know it's difficult to draw general conclusions about smaller funds since each one is different, but from what I know the larger funds seem to have become a little more institutionalized in recent years. Seeing as how these funds recruit more than a year in advance out of BB IB and M/B/B for pre-MBA positions, I would suspect that these same funds would offer internships or full-time offers earlier than IB at the MBA level (especially since PE and Hedge Funds are going after the same candidates as IB, although the former are more competitive.) Why do you think it would be difficult to leave BB IB after only 1-1.5 years as a post-MBA associate to join a PE fund? Not that this proves anything, but I do know of one counter-example: HBS grad with no pre-MBA PE or IB experience, went to top IB then left after no more than 1 year there to join a large cap fund. Of course, this was in 2006-2007 so we might not expect the same volume of hiring at these firms over the next few years. Setting aside any potential ethical issues (can you really set these aside?) I wonder if there are many who accept IB full-time after summer internships and then reneg to go to PE funds.

I understand the firms that don't hire MBAs, if they're already getting top talent at the pre-MBA level, why not just promote from within? I believe most PE shops are very lean which is why they compensate so high, and are consequently so difficult to get into.
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Hey again. I know a handful of pre-MBA associates and post-MBA VPs at large cap funds - so that's mostly where I get my information. I also do a fair amount of research and nosing around myself. You are correct that the larger funds have become a lot more institutionalized, and pre-MBA offers do start going out 1-1.5 years in advance of the post-BB analyst stint start date. Most BB IB pre-MBA analysts start interviewing for their exit opportunities in the Fall and Spring of their 1st year and have something locked in by the end of their 1st year. To be honest - I am really not sure how on-campus MBA recruiting works at large cap funds. I believe there are a few that go to H/W/S and recruit on campus there - I am not familiar with how this works and I do not know what their timelines are.

From my understanding, most small-cap and middle-market funds do their MBA recruiting at the last minute based on their needs (i.e. 1-4 months prior to the summer for interns). It is very unstructured, and I believe FT MBA recruiting is the same.

As far as transitioning to PE from the post-MBA associate level at a bulge bracket bank - it is certainly not impossible and your friend is not a huge rarity. It is just not as common as pre-MBA analysts going on to PE. When banks recruit associates, they are hoping to recruit people who will be long-term career bankers. When banks recruit analysts, they are looking for someone who will stay for 2 years and then be out - this is expected and normal, and often at the analyst level you will have your MDs, Directors, etc. giving you recommendations and providing you leads to solid PE funds to exit to. If you want to transition out at the associate level, I believe that you have to put in all of the work as far as searching/interviewing goes yourself, and keep it very hush hush.

I really don't know much about renegging, as I haven't had any experience with it nor do I know anyone who has. If I were to guess, you may catch a lot of heat from your career services office at your school and put yourself in a very tough spot. Whether this heat is enough for them to yank your diploma - I don't know.
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gixxer1000
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Concentration: Real Estate Development
Schools:Stern, McCombs, Marshall, Wharton
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Shortening my list 17 Apr 2008, 06:08
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I am also trying to figure out my schedule for school applications. I've only visited a few schools so I will probably drop a couple off my list. I'm planning to go into real estate development most likely but I'm also open to real estate finance as well. I aslo notice that the schools that I'm looking at have different dates for RD1 so I'm hoping to "game" the system and have some of my RD2 applications actually be schools with later RD 1 dates.

RD 1 (Late Oct):
Wharton (already visited)
Stanford (maybe)
Harvard (already visited)
UCLA (maybe)

RD1 (Early Nov):
Haas

RD1 (Late Nov):
Columbia

RD1 (Early Jan):
USC MBA/MRED Joint Degree
NYU (already visited)
Tuck (maybe)
Cornell MBA/MRED Joint Degree

RD1 (Early Feb):
Columbia MRED

Some addition thoughts. I have a total of 11 schools on my list but I'm looking at trimming a couple or only submitting if needed (for example the Columbia MRED is in early february and would be a last resort). Also USC, NYU and Tuck are all on the same application which cuts the list to 8 if I don't do the Columbia MRED. UCLA is probably least on my list at this point because I think Haas is a better overall program and USC has a better real estate program. I really fell in love with Harvard after visiting and while they have very little real estate infrastructure I liked the program so much that I would just consider going to a one year MRED program afterwards (MIT or Columbia).
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