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agold
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 20:47
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Hello everyone,

I'm new to the board and somewhat new in my MBA endeavors. I plan to apply this fall for Fall '09 admission.
If I get into a satisfactory school, I will go attend in Fall '09. If I do not get into a good school, I
plan to just try again for Fall '10.

My profile:

- 3.5 GPA in Economics from a top public school (3.9 in major, 3.85 junior/senior years)
- 2 solid summer internships during UG (not sure if this counts for much)
- 3 years work experience at matriculation (1 year Big 4 audit, 2 years healthcare corporate development/M&A)
- Strong ECs in college, involved in a couple of non-profits outside of work but no leadership positions in them
- I have not taken the GMAT yet, but I believe a score of 700-730 is very doable for me
- I would be 25 years old at matriculation in Fall '09

My career goals are to enter private equity (preferably growth equity rather than LBOs) or late stage
venture capital. If I am unable to enter PE right out of school, I would most likely be interested
in working for a bulge bracket investment bank (primary areas of interest would be healthcare/tech
banking in a San Francisco office).

With all of that said - I have a really long list of schools right now that I am interested in. I am looking
to shorten this list and tailor it more to my profile and goals. I realize that my own independent research
will be paramount to this process, but I just wanted to toss this list out there. If anyone has any advice
for me, I would love to hear it. I believe that applying to 13 schools would be cumbersome, if not
completely unrealistic due to the fact that they each require letters of recommendation, etc. I am very
open as far as location goes - I just want to make sure that I can get into the best program possible
for my career goals.

Well, here goes nothing:

Round 1:
1. Harvard
2. Penn
3. Chicago
4. Dartmouth
5. UCLA
6. Berkeley
7. Michigan

Round 2 (if no admits are secured to R1 schools):
8. Columbia
9. Duke
10. NYU
11. UVA
12. Northwestern
13. Yale
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 20:59
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13 schools is impossible. I truly believe you risk burn out (and producing inferior essays) by applying to more than 4 schools in any given round.

That said, with your goals and location preference, I would suggest you apply to a couple of the M7s and Haas. I think any of the top 15 schools will get you a banking job in SF. However, getting P/E will be tough considering your background.
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 21:04
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MGOBLUE2
13 schools is impossible. I truly believe you risk burn out (and producing inferior essays) by applying to more than 4 schools in any given round.

That said, with your goals and location preference, I would suggest you apply to a couple of the M7s and Haas. I think any of the top 15 schools will get you a banking job in SF. However, getting P/E will be tough considering your background.
Show more

I think 4 schools per round is a good target to have - thanks for the tip. As far as PE, one thing to note is that my preference is to join a middle market fund, and not a highly selective large cap one. I would be happy joining a fund with less than $1B AUM. With that said, I realize that it's still a big stretch. I plan to passionately pursue PE opportunities during my 2 years at B-School and just hope for the best. If it doesn't work out, I'll just shoot for banking initially and make the transition later.

Two questions that have come up for me -

1) How much preference is given to applicants in Round 1 versus Round 2? I know that some schools are indifferent to rounds. Is this a school specific nuance?

2) Is it going to make a big difference for me to have 3 years of work experience (Fall '09) vs. 4 years of work experience (Fall '10)? My work experience is solid, but I am not sure that I would gain much from a 4th year of work pre-MBA. I am very energetic/motivated and hate being stagnant in my career.
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 22:11
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I totally agree that trying to plan for more than 4 school per application period would be very hard, but if you are willing to start now then a lot would be possible. If you look at a lot of the schools that you want to apply to, you will see that they all have several key essays in common that you can start now. As for your question about applying with 3 years of WE vs 4 years WE, some school such as Harvard are vying for a younger MBA class, whereas other schools prefer the extra WE. That said, 3 years should be more than enough for an MBA. Good luck with your GMAT and your applications next year. (don't put off the GMAT either, I let work delay mine for almost 4 months and it killed my chances of applying anywhere round 1)
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 22:30
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terp, first of all, welcome to the club and I'm very happy to see that you're starting early for the Fall 09 season!

with that said, here are my opinions, and they are just that, opinions. You have to do more research (talk to alums, visit campus, talk to career centers, etc...) on each school to make up your mind, but here goes nothing.

- Regarding whether you need 4 years of WE, it depends on the school, but with 3 years of STRONG experience, you should have a decent shot at all the schools. Stanford and Harvard likes younger folks, so definitely apply there if you're interested and young. Berkeley and Kellogg generally takes 3-5 years of WE and slant towards the more experienced side, so you're fine there too.

- Rd1 vs Rd2: If you can get it done by R1, do R1. Apply to the schools you care about the most in R1. There are many benefits to this: 1) You get to find out by January, allowing you to plan 6-8 months in advance, 2) Round 1, while the numbers are nearing R2 or exceeding them now (in terms of applicants), is still slightly better than R2 only because the adcom has not seen all the applications yet, and all the spots are open. Many adcoms have mentioned in passing that they give the "benefit of the doubt" in R1 if an applicant is borderline. 3) Next year it is predicted that there will be more increases in app volume, so R2 will really be impacted.

- applying to 13 schools: a BIG no-no. Search the forum for the "sniper" approach. I think rhyme wrote a very good dissertation on the effectiveness of that approach. I also highly recommend you read some articles in the "Knowledge Vault" found in my signature. I know it's not complete yet (I'm adding more things every week), but it should give you a good idea on why 13 is not only difficult, but strongly inadvisable.

My recommendation is to apply to 3-4 schools in R1, and start working on 2-3 more R2 schools depending on if you get interviews from the R1 schools. I did 3 in R1 and 1 in R2 and was pretty burned out. I know Nervous did 4 in R1 and 4 in R2, but she's an ironwoman and is simply amazing (she's 100% in her apps this season). So 4-7 schools total is a good number. Top choices in R1, backups in R2.

As for your list, based on my limited knowledge of PE and banking, here's what I would pick:


Round 1: (pick up to 4 here, and move the other one to R2)
1. Harvard
2. Penn
3. Chicago
4. Northwestern
5. Berkeley

Round 2 (if no admits are secured to R1 schools): (pick up to 3 here and include 1 from R1 list)
6. Columbia
7. Michigan
8. NYU
9. Dartmouth
10. Yale
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 22:40
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I dont know that much about PE, but i think its generally assumed that H/S/W will give you the best shot at getting in. After that Chicago and MIT Sloan are good options. 4 schools in the both rounds is pretty tough too... really hard to sustain the application process after 1st round apps.

When did Maryland become a top public school :)
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Shortening my list 24 Mar 2008, 23:00
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addendum to what I wrote:

I forgot to add STANFORD to your R1 list, sorry! :oops:

But do know that Stanford's admit rate is dropping to an all time low this year (probably 7%) and will probably drop even more for bankers next year when even more people are applying. Just keep that in mind when you apply and your expectations will be set correctly.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 01:56
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If I were you, i'd go

Round 1 - 5 schools

HBS
Stanford (since you want SF)
Wharton
Chicago
Berkeley

Round 2 - 3 schools

Columbia (regular decision)
UCLA
Tuck or Kellogg (choose one)
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 07:03
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Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the advice. I had ruled out Stanford due to the low admit rate, as well as the large amount of time the application takes. Is it really worthwhile for me to give it a shot?

kryzak - Thanks for all of the advice. I found the piece about younger applicants and the R1 vs. R2 details especially helpful.

dabots - I guess we're not technically there yet, but we'll keep climbing the rankings, right? I like to think positively :)

aceman - I noticed that when you guys shortened my list down from 13 schools to 8, you removed a lot of the schools I considered "safeties" (Duke, UVA, NYU, Yale, Michigan). Can you explain your reasoning for excluding them? Is it due to the weak placement in PE/IB, or because you just believe my profile is strong enough to secure an admit or two to the 8 you mentioned?

Is my profile likely strong enough to secure an admit to one or two of my R1 choices? I'm always questioning this and right now I thnk it's just a big toss up.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 07:23
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I'd apply to these schools:

1. Harvard
2. Stanford
3. Penn
4. Chicago
5. Berkeley
6. Columbia
7. Northwestern
8. Sloan
(No particular order)

So it is M7 plus Berkeley (which in my opinion is the M8 school), and as you want to be in SF, would be a natural movement.

I didn't understand why Stanford is out of your list. EDITED: ops now I saw; and I say: no pain, no gain :-D .

But first take your GMAT, and start doing the essays (It took much longer than I was expecting, perhaps because I'm international...).
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 07:24
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i took out the "safeties" because i was under the impression you would reapply for fall 2010 anyway if you did not get in a top school
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 07:25
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I do think you will get into at least one out of the eight. It depends on things like how well you write, how well you interview, any unique experiences you have, how strong your recs are, overall economy, etc.

Based on those elements, if you have some doubts, you can drop Stanford from R1 and add a safety in R2. Based on what you want to do, I think NYU would probably be the choice if you want to go this route.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 09:27
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kwam
I'd apply to these schools:
So it is M7 plus Berkeley (which in my opinion is the M8 school), and as you want to be in SF, would be a natural movement.
Show more

I'll have to pay you the next time I see you, kwam. :wink:

terp, I think most of us believe that if you get a high GMAT Score (over 720) and write very good and convincing essays, you can get into at least one of the schools you listed. I actually missed the part where you said SF (sorry!), so here's my revised list and my comments on each school.

Round 1:
1. Harvard - name brand for PE/VC
2. Penn or Chicago (pick one) - good for banking finance
3. Berkeley - Healthcare/Tech in SF area, not too shabby with finance and has inroads with VCs
4. Stanford - PE/VC, Tech, SF area

Round 2:
5. Columbia or NYU (pick one) - Finance, but you might need the CBS brand for PE/VC
6. Yale - I've heard from a buddy of mine he's applying to Yale to get the name for PE, even though Yale's b-school isn't ranked that high, the mother school's name brand will help.
7. UCLA - finance, can get you a job in SF area pretty easily, your safety school. Just make sure you VISIT them and shower them with attention, otherwise they will ding you because they know you have them as a safety school.

So there you go, 4 schools for R1, 3 schools for R2 depending on how R1 goes. Addresses your SF/Banking/Tech/Healthcare/PE/VC desires.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 10:25
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Well, this was very reassuring guys. Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. It's time for me to crack the GMAT over the next several months and then revisit this list/finalize it around July and August.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 16:48
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One thing to think about, and i think this has pretty much been backed up by what we have witnessed on this site. R1 is easier than R2. Schools will tell you they are equal but just judging by this site, admin411, and BW...R1 definitely is easier than R2. So although people say your worst application is your first I say apply to your top choices in R1. The first app you should work on should be the one with the most comprehensive essays, Montauk suggests Kellogg and I think those of us that applied there will tell you they definitely cover the most ground in their essays. Look at the essays for your schools you are applying to in R1 and see which one has the most material that can be reused in the rest of your essays.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 18:38
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Another tip is to start working on the set of essays that is due the LATEST in R1. This way you finish them first, go work on other essays, and then come back to it a week or two before it's due to refine it with all the knowledge you learned from the other essays. I did that with my Haas essays. They covered quite a bit of ground, then went on to UCLA, then Stanford, and finally back to Haas. when I returned to Haas again, I found even more ways to improve them (even though I thought they were done when I first "finished" them).

Reuse is good, just be very careful that you're answering the question and not just blatantly copy and pasting. I know some people on this forum don't like reuse and re-write every single word, but I would say my reuse statistic is probably 50-75% for similar questions. Of course I had to write new material and modify things, but in general, if the theme is the same, then you can reuse.
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Shortening my list 25 Mar 2008, 20:51
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I'm a big believer in R1 over R2 (probably doesn't make a big difference) but if you are going to put together 3-4 really outstanding apps start early. I planned to submit 5 apps in R1 and barely managed 4 even with one 1 Nov. deadline. Look through the old posts to get a better idea but basically start early...write one set of essays revise a whole lot and leave them aside. Go through your other apps and then come back to your first school and realize how crappy your first attempt was. My first app was Tuck and by the time I looked at that app after finishing my Wharton one I was shocked at how bad my first go at this process was. As for schools...Wharton all the way j/k. If you need guidance listen to kry, he has a great post sometime back on the whole process.
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Shortening my list 26 Mar 2008, 06:22
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First, I'm glad others have already recommended Stanford :-D

Second, agree with everyone else here on the numbers, etc. I think 4/round is kind of a magic number. At the start of this process I was thinking, "Oh come on. How hard can these apps be? I'll bang out 5 or 6 in a few weeks, no problem."

Oops :roll:

Also, keep in mind that you might start to run into fatigue after even a single round of 4 apps. I had a very difficult time getting even a single application into round 2 after 4 in the first round. So I would recommend concentrating your efforts on your top ~ 4 choices in the first round and moving on from there.

Good luck!
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Shortening my list 26 Mar 2008, 08:15
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Just to add, if you have a top choice leave that for later...start with a school you want to go to but wouldn't be devastated if you received a ding. Your first attempt isn't going to be great...unless you really REALLY work on it, this is a learning process and you'll get better with practice. Terry is on the money it took me approximately 3-4 weeks to revise and edit each set of essays, that's after getting the outlines down and cranking out a first draft. Everyone is different but I think I ran through 20 drafts of each Wharton essay before I ran out of time and submitted my app...I'm still not happy with the essays :lol: .
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Shortening my list 26 Mar 2008, 08:34
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Quote:

My career goals are to enter private equity (preferably growth equity rather than LBOs) or late stage
venture capital. If I am unable to enter PE right out of school, I would most likely be interested
in working for a bulge bracket investment bank (primary areas of interest would be healthcare/tech
banking in a San Francisco office).
Show more

It is way early to bring this up, but I thought I'd point out that such a plan is often impossible. The problem is simple. Banks come and recruit immediately -- I'd even met people from the GSB who got offers from banks before they even started school! Its that competitive. PE / VC on the other hand, is very very much a "lets see what we need for the summer in March" kind of recruiting. In other words, its essentially impossible to recruit for PE/VC, and if that fails, recruit for IB. The timing just doesn't work (and banks won't give you six months to decide). So, you either have to bite the bullet, accept the risk, go for broke in PE/VC or just nab the IB offer. It comes down to risk tolerance really. Not to be underestimated, its very very hard to sit by and watch all the banks recruit, then all the consulting firms, then all the general management and the marketing roles, then everything else, and watch 60% of your classmates land multiple offers and pick from the litter ("Do I do Barclays in London or Bain in San Fran?") -- all the while you haven't even been to your first interview yet.

Not that any of this helps you with school choice really, but I thought it important to mention. Similarly, although you are likely aware, landing PE or VC is next to impossible (im not tooting my own horn here, I'm just telling it like it is - I admit I was just lucky) and PE in particular, without a banking background, is virtually completely impossible.
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