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rhyme
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Should I take the GMAT again? 20 Apr 2007, 11:50
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I wanna see photos of Malibu girl.
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kidderek
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I wanna see photos of Malibu girl.
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I second that.
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pelihu
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hold an additional highly respected degree (JD from Michigan Law)


Hey Pel, I know you readily admit a low UG gpa. How were you able to get into Michigan Law? It's a legitimate top8 school. I've seen it climb even higher than that.

I don't mean any offense by the above statement. But I know law schools place emphasis on LSAT and gpa.

No, not at all, very good question. I was actually wondering if someone was going to ask me that at some point.

I finished up in 3 years - which means a lot of classes every term. UCLA is on the quarter system, which means that I had more or less 2 full quarters of school after I was admitted. I really thought at the time that I wouldn't need my GPA ever again.

So, here's what happened. My GPA was never really high (about 3.3 at the stage I turned in my applications), but my LSAT was through the roof. Also, the LSAT policy was different then and they averaged your scores if you took it more than once so almost everyone took it just one time and the school averages were a bit lower. Once I had admits in hand, I decided to party away the last 2 quarters (again, I didn't think I'd ever need it again). I was actually admitted to Michigan, Columbia & Berkeley law schools (no love from Harvard, Stanford or Yale).

I quit my job doing database analysis & took a job waiting tables in Malibu; started seeing a girl that was, hmmm, really hot and really wild; and did just enough to graduate. With the volume of classes I took each (again I graduated in 3 years), I essentially spent the last 1/4 of my time at college partying (actually I spend all 3 years partying, but even more in the last 2 quarters). Little did I know I would need to use my undergraduate record again. :lol:
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Pelihu, I was wondering why the LSAT scores had gone up so much at the top schools since I applied. I didn't realize that the schools had changed the LSAT policy. I only remember one of my classmates telling me she took the LSAT twice. I thought that maybe the scores were getting higher because more people were applying.
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kidderek
pelihu

So, here's what happened. My GPA was never really high (about 3.3 at the stage I turned in my applications), but my LSAT was through the roof. Also, the LSAT policy was different then and they averaged your scores if you took it more than once so almost everyone took it just one time and the school averages were a bit lower. Once I had admits in hand, I decided to party away the last 2 quarters (again, I didn't think I'd ever need it again). I was actually admitted to Michigan, Columbia & Berkeley law schools (no love from Harvard, Stanford or Yale).

Yes! I forgot that one applies to law school as a junior and law schools do not get a chance to see your senior year grades for evaluation. I am a bit surprised that you turned down Columbia for Michigan. Reputation wise, Columbia law school is not as inconsistent as its bschool counterpart. Columbia Law is perennially ranked directly below Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Was some sort of scholarship involved?

ps-I also dropped my gpa from a summa cum laude to a cum laude, thanks to senioritis.
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Yeah, money was a factor - as in I didn't have any. I paid my own way through undergrad and spent every paycheck as it came in. Heading to NY with zero cash didn't seem like it would be all that great. I liked Columbia a lot but my decision came down to Berkeley & Michigan. Michigan offered cash that brought them to within a few hundred dollars of in-state tuition at Berkeley (no coincidence I'm sure) and I liked Michigan better so I headed there.

Incidentally, I think Michigan has generally been underrepresented in US News rankings. The year I applied, only Harvard & Michigan received perfect 5.0 ratings from peers as well as lawyers and Judges. Michigan has had a stellar reputation historically, often finishing 2nd or 3rd in older rankings. Personally, I view Chicago, Columbia & Michigan as a group after the top 3 (admittedly I'm biased). The joke was that NYU was way over-ranked - they even passed up Columbia one year because they increased the number of volumes in their library. Considering law students rarely research in books these days, it was more an indicator of poor ranking metrics.

So, I can agree that Columbia is better than Michigan, but if we applied a cluster system they would definitely be together with Chicago and the big 3 (ultra elite), whereas NYU, Berkeley & Penn would be a lower cluster (elite). If you look at the reputation rankings, Michigan still does better than Berkeley & Penn, but the rankings have taken their toll and, by being published each year, have influenced how people look at the schools. I know nobody is interested in law school rankings, but since you brought it up... :)
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Pelihu, How are you gonna manage your Current Business/Entreprenurial Venture while at School?
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pelihu
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Actually, she was not from Malibu, I took a job in Malibu. She had actually just moved to LA from Northern California - winner of a regional swimsuit competition with finals in LA - same week I got my Michigan decision.
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pelihu
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Pelihu, I was wondering why the LSAT scores had gone up so much at the top schools since I applied. I didn't realize that the schools had changed the LSAT policy. I only remember one of my classmates telling me she took the LSAT twice. I thought that maybe the scores were getting higher because more people were applying.
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Yeah, it used to be if you screwed up the first time, it was pretty much over. Tough part was that timing is really tight on the LSAT, so you always heard about loads of people that were unable to finish on time.

As for my business, I'm reducing it in size and scope and handing it off to some family members.
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Should I take the GMAT again? 20 Apr 2007, 20:28
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Whoa, Pelihu :shock: I'm surprised you even made it through that summer alive! Nice chips BTW :wink:
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pelihu
Seriously, you're hoping to get into a top 10 MBA program, you already have one strike against you (your GPA) that indicates either you didn't try hard enough, or you tried hard and couldn't cut it, and you're looking for the easy option? Inspiring.

Even if you have a great explanation for your GPA, it's still low for top programs; I'm speaking from experience. Top public undergrad, worked full time to pay 100% of all costs, graduated in 3 years, hold an additional highly respected degree (JD from Michigan Law), and I still felt compelled to score through the roof on the GMAT as well as take additional classes online (4, all A's all at the same time, UCLA extension) before thinking I had a legitimate shot at elite schools.

There's no way around it, 2.76 is really low, in the bottom 10% for every single top 15 MBA program, and in the bottom 5% for virtually all of the top 10s. People admitted to top 10 schools in that GPA range are largely underrepresented minorities. If you aren't in that group, then you need to be very solid in every other category. If you happen to be part of an overrepresented group, particularly Indian and certain Asian demographics, you need to do everything possible for every other category.

Based on what you wrote, it's impossible to guess whether your work experience is distinguished or unique, or just how strong your essays were, but from your tone I'd guess they are more or less average. Average GMAT, average work experience, average essays, no extras, bottom 10% GPA. To get into the top programs you need to be solid in virtually every category, and excel in a few; being average to below average in every aspect isn't going to cut it.
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Pelihu, I'm not looking for the "easy option." Actually, I don't think there IS an "easy option" when applying to bschools. It's either you get in, or you don't. If someone can get into a top bschool by doing jack, then all the more power to him/her. I wouldn't be on this board asking for advice on how to improve my profile if I was looking for an "easy" way out.

As for "not cutting it", well, maybe that's so. But I can say for sure even if I was "mediocre", it was at one of the most difficult undergrads (no grade inflation). Just by estimating I'd say at least 30% or 40% of students at top 10 bschools wouldn't "cut it" at a top undergrad, when they were 18-22 years old. I think I still deserve to get into a top 10 bschool, whether you agree or not. In fact, I know quite a few people with my profile who are in top 10 bschools. Will I get in like them? Maybe, maybe not, but I sure would like to give it a shot.

As far as your own profile, based on your strong academics and high GMAT score, you SHOULD be in a top 10. If you got in, then congrats. If not, then blame it on bad luck, but you should've been in.

Either way, I have thought long and hard about the exact online classes you're talking about, and they are one of my last options. My concern is that Bschools might not really respect online courses, and also the fact that many of the courses still require a final exam that's officially monitored, and I have no idea how to do that. If you have any information on that, please share.
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I was just responding to your prior message (included below). You didn't ask "are there other option" or "are there more effective options". You asked "are there easier options?" I simply responded by saying that given your profile as it stands right now, looking for an easy option is folly.

I wasn't judging your plan, I was simply responding to your question as asked.

aceman626
Hi, thanks for the advice. I am a bit wary of online courses...first off, i heard they're not respected by bschools? secondly, i went to Berkeley for undergrad, and it's HARD. The main reason I got a 2.76. I can imagine the online courses to be even harder cuz you don't have access to teachers, etc. Are there easier options?
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I thought that pelihu's advice was pretty solid.
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flapjack
I thought that pelihu's advice was pretty solid.
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Solid? Sure. Condescending? A little.
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rustmonster
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pelihu
started seeing a girl that was, hmmm, really hot and really wild
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pics or it didn't happen.
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[quote="aceman626"]

In fact, you yourself would be taking the easy way out by your own logic, becuase you didn't choose Berkeley extension online, which is presumably harder than UCLA extension online. You are contradicting yourself.

I could be mistaken aceman, but I do believe that all UC online courses are weighted equally and require the same amount of committment, regardless of whether they are taken from Berkeley or Los Angeles.

Even if you registered for Stats and Microecon at Hayward Community College, all that really matters is that you take the courses for credit and do well. Some top ten (if not most) will even accept, if not require, a transcript from MBA math.com

Any luck with the consultant search?
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rustmonster
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started seeing a girl that was, hmmm, really hot and really wild

pics or it didn't happen.
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In other words, Rustmonster is implying that we need addition pics to verify those are indeed both of the same girl. :-D
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aceman626
... i went to Berkeley for undergrad, and it's HARD. The main reason I got a 2.76.
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What was your %tile within your class? Several schools will ask for this figure and together with the school's prestige and difficulty of chosen major(s) they will somehow figure out your overall standing / commitment to the program.

There are several of us with low(ish) GPAs and nice admits. I think your GMAT is ok and I think that raising it further will not add much (at least as a tool to counter a low GPA). About the courses, I've heard the advice several times but I did not take any courses at all. Maybe it's different for US candidates, but in my case I think at least some of the schools did not care about the GPA at all (specially since I graduated 7+ yrs ago).

Hope it helps. L.
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LOL, this is what happens when you are one week away from giving notice on your job and you've left a client waiting while reading GMATclub ... I heard a lawyer downstairs asking, who's client is that, so I rushed to go meet them and just hit "Pics or it didn't happen" before noticing that pics were already up.

However, like GMAT ... I remain skeptical. More pics are required. 8-)

---------

Re: law school. I recall an impressive statistic from some time ago now. Columbia trumpeted some study that found 1/3 rd of all US law professors were graduates of one of five law schools:

Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, and Michigan.

NYU is a great law school, but they have long been known to game the rankings. I'd put at least Michigan and Chicago head of them on all counts.
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Yeah, I believe that insiders in the legal community would largely agree with those rankings.

OK, I'll post a few more pictures later. You guys are so skeptical. It's not like I claimed to get 800 on the GMAT or something! :lol:
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rustmonster
LOL, this is what happens when you are one week away from giving notice on your job and you've left a client waiting while reading GMATclub ... I heard a lawyer downstairs asking, who's client is that, so I rushed to go meet them and just hit "Pics or it didn't happen" before noticing that pics were already up.

However, like GMAT ... I remain skeptical. More pics are required. 8-)

---------

Re: law school. I recall an impressive statistic from some time ago now. Columbia trumpeted some study that found 1/3 rd of all US law professors were graduates of one of five law schools:

Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, and Michigan.

NYU is a great law school, but they have long been known to game the rankings. I'd put at least Michigan and Chicago head of them on all counts.
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I have a law degree from one of the top-14 schools and I graduated in 2000. I should preface this by mentioning that I do think Michigan is a excellent law school. However, I do not know anyone, other than a Michigan grad, who would rank Michigan in the top 5. Maybe some old-timers would do so. I do remember seeing a U.S. News ranking from the mid-1980s where I believe Michigan was ranked #3. I wouldn't rank it that high now.

It is generally not easy to get into any of the top-14. However, it is definitely far easier to get into Michigan than it is get get into any of the schools ranked ahead of it, as well as some of those ranked lower than it.

There's a lot of b.s. to the U.S. News rankings. There's no reason why Chicago should only be ranked #6. Chicago used to always rank ahead of Columbia and NYU until a few years ago when U.S. News changed the ranking criteria and both leapfrogged Chicago. Northwestern also gets screwed. I was very surprised when I looked at the most recent rankings and saw that Northwestern had better numbers than many of the schools ahead of it. Peer schools rank each other and for some reason they always rank Northwestern lower than practically all of the other top-14 schools.

Despite what I just wrote, I don't think any of this discussion is really all that relevant. The vast majority of graduates from any of the top law schools end up with choice jobs at big law firms.

Even if NYU games the rankings, I guarentee you that Columbia also does so. When I was applying to schools, Columbia would send application packets to anyone who got at least a 165 on the LSAT and let them apply for free, even though that score was below their median. I think they did that with the intention of rejecting many of them to make their acceptance rate look artificially low.
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pelihu
Yeah, I believe that insiders in the legal community would largely agree with those rankings.

OK, I'll post a few more pictures later. You guys are so skeptical. It's not like I claimed to get 800 on the GMAT or something! :lol:
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pel, the only way we'll truly believe you is if you post some "personal" pictures of her. :wink:
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