I have a 710 (49Q, 37V). Now before you start blasting me about how that is high enough, focus on other things, well within range, etc, let me give you my background. I applied this past season, dings all around. Will be applying again this fall. The main problem with me is my super low GPA 2.76. However, I am aiming only for top 10 school. I was told that it can be done, and I am determined to do so. I did graduate from a top US undergrad school known for difficult academics, however I guess that didn't help too much since I didn't even get invited for interviews. As far as my essays, I spent a good amount of effort on them and I thought they were quite good. I had them reviewed by several people, including top MBA grads who said they are very good. Of course I will continue to tweak them for the next few months, but I'm not sure if I can improve them significantly. The next thing would be to take classes and get A's in them right. Well I live abroad and don't have a local community college or university extension I can go to. I tried looking up classes I can take but so far I can't find any good options. There are classes at top local universities, but they don't give grades unless you're in a degree program. I will continue to look around but doesn't look too good here. I have been actively involved in a couple extra curricular activities, but dunno how much more I can do. I am trying to take some positions in those organizations, but am limited since most positions are taken. If I try to join a whole bunch of different groups and volunteering for this and that now, I think it will just make things look diluted and seem like I am just doing it for bschool and not of my own interest. Most of the people with low GPAs generally have 740+ GMATs...I am wondering if that's sort of like "necessary" if you're GPA is lower than 3.0.? Also, I have taken the GMAT 3 times..would taking it a 4th and 5th time look desperate? Also, I have been getting 730-ish on my practices....but as you know there is a bit of luck involved as well and I might risk getting a bit lower than 710 if I get nervous or something...which might look bad right? I have been working for almost 6 years. As far as work, I do not expect any significant changes in the next few months. Should I take the GMAT again?? I definitely don't want to, and I'm not even confident that I will do better, but it seems like the best option right now to improve my candidacy? Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks!!

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Should I take the GMAT again?

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rustmonster

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23 Apr 2007, 20:02

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flapjack

I have a law degree from one of the top-14 schools and I graduated in 2000. I should preface this by mentioning that I do think Michigan is a excellent law school. However, I do not know anyone, other than a Michigan grad, who would rank Michigan in the top 5. Maybe some old-timers would do so. I do remember seeing a U.S. News ranking from the mid-1980s where I believe Michigan was ranked #3. I wouldn't rank it that high now.

It is generally not easy to get into any of the top-14. However, it is definitely far easier to get into Michigan than it is get get into any of the schools ranked ahead of it, as well as some of those ranked lower than it.

There's a lot of b.s. to the U.S. News rankings. There's no reason why Chicago should only be ranked #6. Chicago used to always rank ahead of Columbia and NYU until a few years ago when U.S. News changed the ranking criteria and both leapfrogged Chicago. Northwestern also gets screwed. I was very surprised when I looked at the most recent rankings and saw that Northwestern had better numbers than many of the schools ahead of it. Peer schools rank each other and for some reason they always rank Northwestern lower than practically all of the other top-14 schools.

Despite what I just wrote, I don't think any of this discussion is really all that relevant. The vast majority of graduates from any of the top law schools end up with choice jobs at big law firms.

Even if NYU games the rankings, I guarentee you that Columbia also does so. When I was applying to schools, Columbia would send application packets to anyone who got at least a 165 on the LSAT and let them apply for free, even though that score was below their median. I think they did that with the intention of rejecting many of them to make their acceptance rate look artificially low.

The sad thing is ... I probably am an "old-timer," so I remember UMich's heyday. If you invoked a cluster system, it has a claim to belong more with the schools immediately above it than below it. Then again, I'm an old-timer!

It doesn't really matter, but over the twenty years of the USNWR rankings, Columbia has fairly regularly been ahead of Chicago. Not always, but consistently. CLS has mostly been duking it out with NYU in the 4/5 spot, losing out this year for the first time in a while.

so I ask you to forgive my jibes at NYU...its a good-natured rivalry thing. Having said that, I wouldn't trade CLS' history and faculty for NYUs. I don't believe NYU has ever had a grad on the Supreme Court. At one point, Columbia had four at the same time. (It didn't hurt that FDR was also a CLS grad.) Opps ... that rivalry again.

Anyway, I chose Columbia over Chicago, but when I did Chicago was higher ranked. That switched shortly after I graduated from law school and has remained the same for a fairly long time now. (I'm an old-timer.) Columbia over Chicago in USNWR can't really be called a new thing anymore.

To the extent anyone cares, here is a compendium of USNWR law school rankings every few years since its first one in 1987.

https://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... sn_history

For the record, I don't know how hard it is to get into Michigan now, but I got into Columbia and Chicago. I was dinged by Michigan. Perhaps that's why I respect them. :-D

aceman626

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23 Apr 2007, 21:25

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GMATT73

aceman626

In fact, you yourself would be taking the easy way out by your own logic, becuase you didn't choose Berkeley extension online, which is presumably harder than UCLA extension online. You are contradicting yourself.

I could be mistaken aceman, but I do believe that all UC online courses are weighted equally and require the same amount of committment, regardless of whether they are taken from Berkeley or Los Angeles.

Even if you registered for Stats and Microecon at Hayward Community College, all that really matters is that you take the courses for credit and do well. Some top ten (if not most) will even accept, if not require, a transcript from MBA math.com

Any luck with the consultant search?

Hi GMATT73, I agree with you, which is why I think it is no shame to go for a lesser school as long as you do well. Getting an A is priority at the moment. I said Pelihu is contradicting because by his logic everyone has to gun for a top school otherwise they're taking the "easy way out", which I disagree with. By the way, did my post get deleted? Weird.

As far as consultant, I emailed the guy you mentioned. I received a long canned email back from him, and when I replied back (a couple times) with specific questions, he didn't answer. If he doesn't get back to me soon I would start worrying about his service....anyway, you got any other suggestions? Thanks.

pelihu

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23 Apr 2007, 21:27

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For what it's worth, Michigan had a lower admit rate than NYU in the most recent US News rankings. Michigan also had better employment rates both at graduation (98.5 v. 97), after 9 months (99.7 v. 99.3) and substantially better bar passage rate in NY (96.5 v. 93.4) which is the jurisdiction where both schools send the most students. So, it's incorrect to say that it's easier to get into Michigan than the schools ranked ahead of it - NYU is easier according to these numbers. Also, just for example, Michigan's GPA range exceeds Chicago's, however I have always had a sense that Chicago is much more difficult to get into than Michigan. Numbers to not tell the whole story. My experience has been that Michigan is more respected than NYU on the West Coast.

Also, I think it makes logical sense that schools in favorable locations tend to attract additional applications from marginal applicants. In other words someone that really wants to remain in NY, or really wants to relocate to NY will submit applications to schools where they would generally be considered log shots. This helps drive down the admit rate and improve yield. The corollary is that schools in less favorable locations tend not to get such applications, thereby hurting their admit rate without affecting the number of qualified applicants.

Regarding pictures, I'll PM a few to those that have demanded them. In light of the fact that I'd like to get a job sometime in the future, I'm going to try to remain at least somewhat anonymous for now.

aceman626

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23 Apr 2007, 21:36

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lepium

aceman626

... i went to Berkeley for undergrad, and it's HARD. The main reason I got a 2.76.

What was your %tile within your class? Several schools will ask for this figure and together with the school's prestige and difficulty of chosen major(s) they will somehow figure out your overall standing / commitment to the program.

There are several of us with low(ish) GPAs and nice admits. I think your GMAT is ok and I think that raising it further will not add much (at least as a tool to counter a low GPA). About the courses, I've heard the advice several times but I did not take any courses at all. Maybe it's different for US candidates, but in my case I think at least some of the schools did not care about the GPA at all (specially since I graduated 7+ yrs ago).

Hope it helps. L.

Thanks. My class rank probably wouldn't be very impressive either. I don't think my school gives class ranks, but from my understanding my GPA is around average for my school. So I am assuming like 50% ish, doesn't look that great.

I guess what it comes down to is making a decision to 1) retake the GMAT and get 730 or hopefully 740 or 2) take classes at local universities, but with no grades. I'm not sure how useful that would be. What do you think?

Anyway, if you don't mind, can you share your basic stats, which bschools you got admits to? That would really help, thanks!

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23 Apr 2007, 21:44

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rustmonster

pelihu

started seeing a girl that was, hmmm, really hot and really wild

pics or it didn't happen.

I always crack up when people say that on digg.com to stories about underage sex.

flapjack

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23 Apr 2007, 21:45

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Rustmonster, that's an interesting link for the old US News rankings. It's hard to believe that Texas was ranked above Duke, Georgetown, Cornell, and Northwestern in 1987, and that UCLA was ahead of Cornell and NW.

I'm also very surprised that Illinois was ranked number 10 in 1995, because I don't remember ever seeing it above the low 20s.

I wonder how much that business school rankings have changed during the same time period.

pelihu

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23 Apr 2007, 21:53

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rhyme

rustmonster

pelihu

started seeing a girl that was, hmmm, really hot and really wild

pics or it didn't happen.

I always crack up when people say that on digg.com to stories about underage sex.

Trust me, it happened. The precipitous drop in my GPA is proof.

pelihu

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23 Apr 2007, 22:05

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flapjack

It's interesting that you point this out. You guys are probably too young to remember this, but there was a lot of controversy surrounding US News rankings right around that time - say from '87-'92. I wasn't looking at law schools so I don't remember anything about that, but I remember the big bruhaha about the undergraduate rankings.

At one point, Berkeley was ranked #6 in the undergrad rankings (I'm going off the top of my head for all these so they might be a few spots off), and UVA, Michigan, UCLA & UNC (and possibly Illinois & Texas) were all in the 12-25 range. Then, in a single year, all the public universities dropped out of the top 25 with Berkeley falling 20 some spots; this persisted for several years and the public schools haven't fully recovered. The controversy was of course that schools don't change that much year over year, and that US News tweaked their ranking system to favor private schools. This was all before the internet, so there wasn't the type of widespread discussion & protest that you'd expect to see today.

Your post refreshed my memory because the 3 schools you noted (Texas, UCLA & Illinois) are all public, and along with Michigan have all been uniformly lower in the rankings since that time. Of course, this is some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy as I pointed out in a prior post. When I applied to law school, only Michigan & Harvard had perfect peer & lawyer/judge reputation rankings while NYU was substantially lower. But it seems that the rankings have moved public opinion since then.

kidderek

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24 Apr 2007, 06:38

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Dayam Pelihu!!!!

ok ok ok, I kind of believe you. But it didn't happen, unless you send her to my place to clean my house!

Jeeesh dude. I would never have made it to law school. I would have stayed home and played with her non stop. You need to change your name to Pelistud.

lepium

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24 Apr 2007, 07:18

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aceman626

Anyway, if you don't mind, can you share your basic stats, which bschools you got admits to? That would really help, thanks!

GMAT 710 (Q80%, V95%)
GPA: whatever (it's foreign). Top 40% at Engineering school (worked part time during college, though).

Got into HBS/Kellogg and Ross.

GMATT73

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24 Apr 2007, 07:50

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lepium

GMAT 710 (Q80%, V95%)

These stats lend testament to the fact that one need not be a quant jock to get into HBS.

lepium

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24 Apr 2007, 08:23

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GMATT73

lepium

GMAT 710 (Q80%, V95%)

These stats lend testament to the fact that one need not be a quant jock to get into HBS.

Yeah, although I must clarify that I am an Engineer, so my "quant" background may have been boosted by that fact. Why an 80% then? Messed up timing and did not practice Q as much as I did V.

kidderek

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24 Apr 2007, 08:24

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lepium

Yeah, although I must clarify that I am an Engineer, so my "quant" background may have been boosted by that fact. Why an 80% then? Messed up timing and did not practice Q as much as I did V.

You gotta stick an H on the front of the dirt bike.

aceman626

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24 Apr 2007, 08:38

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lepium

GMATT73

lepium

GMAT 710 (Q80%, V95%)

These stats lend testament to the fact that one need not be a quant jock to get into HBS.

Yeah, although I must clarify that I am an Engineer, so my "quant" background may have been boosted by that fact. Why an 80% then? Messed up timing and did not practice Q as much as I did V.

Very nice and congrats. You got into not only HBS, but also other good schools, so it's definitely not by luck. You said you have a low-ish GPA right? If you have any other advice for me, please share! You can also PM me! thanks!