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# The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun

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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 07:57
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2
Vyshak wrote:
Hi GMATNinja,

Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here? My understanding about present perfect tense is - An action that begins in the past and continues to the present. But in the explanation given above its mentioned that '"has dated" implies that this is not the case anymore (this particular construction really only makes sense in the present tense -- or as an -ing modifier attached to a present-tense clause, since -ing modifiers adopt the tense of the clause to which they are attached.)'.

Hello Vyshak,

The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

It is a general fact about the two communities mentioned in the official sentence above that these communities are at least a thousand years old, a fact that cannot be changed or will not remain true in the time to come. Hence, this fact must be written either in simple present tense verb or in the form of verb-ing modifier as we in this sentence.

When an event is written in present perfect tense, it denotes that the event may change in the future.

We say: Sun rises in the east because this fact is never going to change. If we say: Sun has risen in the east, the sentence will mean that in present the Sun is rising in the east. But in future it may not do so.

For this reason, usage of has dated back (present perfect tense) does not work in the context pf this official sentence.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 08:08
2
arvind910619 wrote:
Imo A .
But not sure
Which in B is ambiguous .
The is one more doubt I have .
If in option D we remove one will it be correct then.?

Sent from my ONE E1003 using GMAT Club Forum mobile app

Hello arvind910619,

Let's take a look at the sentence with Choice D inserted in it.

The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, and each one dating back at least a thousand years.

Even if we remove one from the above mentioned sentence, it will stand incorrect because and is preceded by a comma. This means that we need an independent clause after comma + and. But there is no verb for the subject each as dating cannot act as verb as it is not preceded by any helping verb such is/was etc. Hence, this choice is incorrect.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 23:21
2
Vyshak wrote:
Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here?

Hi Vyshak, the issue is not as much of tense as of voice.

B says that both communities have dated. This is active voice.

This is incorrect because the communities cannot date themselves; clearly, someone else has dated them.

So, the correct usage would be the one using passive voice: both of which have been dated
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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08 Jun 2017, 01:56
EducationAisle wrote:
Vyshak wrote:
Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here?

Hi Vyshak, the issue is not as much of tense as of voice.

B says that both communities have dated. This is active voice.

This is incorrect because the communities cannot date themselves; clearly, someone else has dated them.

So, the correct usage would be the one using passive voice: both of which have been dated

I disagree.

date back to can be used both actively and passively.

An example from Collins:

The brooch dates back to the fourth century BC.

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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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08 Jun 2017, 03:28
tireks wrote:
date back to can be used both actively and passively.

An example from Collins:

The brooch dates back to the fourth century BC.

Hi tireks, this is not the same usage. The sentence under consideration uses dated at. Hence, we should be looking at the usages of dated (as a past participle) and not dates (as a verb).

Also, if you could cite an official example, that might be more useful.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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27 Jun 2017, 23:37
GMATNinja wrote:
hazelnut wrote:
GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo Could you help to explain "VERBing - dating" in this problem? Why "dating" is placed after the pronoun "both"? What is being modified here?

The -ing modifier ("dating") modifies "communities" -- and the adverb "both" modifies "dating." In other words, both the Acoma community and the Hopi community date back at least a thousand years, and the word placement isn't a problem at all.

Hi GMATNinja,

As per your explanation "both" is an adverb modifying dating. And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause. But I am not able to understand how "dating... " can modify the previous clause. I see no relation of -ING modifier to the verb of the previous clause. Can you please explain? Thanks a ton!!
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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28 Jun 2017, 17:56
1
Quote:
And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause.

Not always. "-ing" modifiers can modify an entire clause... or just a noun (see the explanation by egmat above). We could argue that "dating" modifies the Acoma and Hopi, or that it modifies "communities" -- but the difference between those two isn't terribly important, because those two are the same in this sentence, anyway.

I hope this helps!
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2017, 10:01
3
yt770 wrote:
As per your explanation "both" is an adverb modifying dating. And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause. But I am not able to understand how "dating... " can modify the previous clause. I see no relation of -ING modifier to the verb of the previous clause. Can you please explain? Thanks a ton!!

Hi yt770, there is correlation between the participial phrase (both dating back...) and the previous clause.

The clause states that the Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities; subsequently, the participial phrase elaborates to what extent these communities are old: both date back at least a thousand years.

On the other hand, had the sentence been (say):

The Acoma and Hopi considered children born into the mother's clan, both dating back at least a thousand years.

In this sentence, there is indeed no correlation between the clause and the participial phrase. Hence, use of participial phrase would be incorrect here.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses these issues with participial phrases, their application and examples in significant detail. If someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Dec 2017, 22:54
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause.

Not always. "-ing" modifiers can modify an entire clause... or just a noun (see the explanation by egmat above). We could argue that "dating" modifies the Acoma and Hopi, or that it modifies "communities" -- but the difference between those two isn't terribly important, because those two are the same in this sentence, anyway.

I hope this helps!

Hi GMATNinja,
I understood why option A is correct.
I am having trouble to eliminate option B.
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both of which have dated back at least a thousand years.

In one of the explanation in the forum regarding why B is wrong is as follows-
In B, "have dated" doesn't make sense. Dating in this sense is not something they have actually done. It's just a way of describing how old they are. We'd say "This legend dates back to the 12th century," not "This legend has dated back to the 12th century." (This issue also rules out C, with "has dated.")

Then, in a correct OA in Gmatprep,
Fossils of the arm of a sloth found in Puerto Rico in 1991, have been dated at 34 million years old, made it the earliest known mammal of the Greater Antilles islands.
Here, the dating also, not something the fossils do.

In another explanation,
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

It is a general fact about the two communities mentioned in the official sentence above that these communities are at least a thousand years old, a fact that cannot be changed or will not remain true in the time to come. Hence, this fact must be written either in simple present tense verb or in the form of verb-ing modifier as we in this sentence.

When an event is written in present perfect tense, it denotes that the event may change in the future.
We say: Sun rises in the east because this fact is never going to change. If we say: Sun has risen in the east, the sentence will mean that in present the Sun is rising in the east. But in future it may not do so.

But the use of present perfect is something that started in the past and its effect is there till present. How can we say that the effect wont be in the future?
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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02 Mar 2018, 04:00
sunny91 wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause.

Not always. "-ing" modifiers can modify an entire clause... or just a noun (see the explanation by egmat above). We could argue that "dating" modifies the Acoma and Hopi, or that it modifies "communities" -- but the difference between those two isn't terribly important, because those two are the same in this sentence, anyway.

I hope this helps!

Hi GMATNinja,
I understood why option A is correct.
I am having trouble to eliminate option B.
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both of which have dated back at least a thousand years.

In one of the explanation in the forum regarding why B is wrong is as follows-
In B, "have dated" doesn't make sense. Dating in this sense is not something they have actually done. It's just a way of describing how old they are. We'd say "This legend dates back to the 12th century," not "This legend has dated back to the 12th century." (This issue also rules out C, with "has dated.")

Then, in a correct OA in Gmatprep,
Fossils of the arm of a sloth found in Puerto Rico in 1991, have been dated at 34 million years old, made it the earliest known mammal of the Greater Antilles islands.
Here, the dating also, not something the fossils do.

In another explanation,
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

It is a general fact about the two communities mentioned in the official sentence above that these communities are at least a thousand years old, a fact that cannot be changed or will not remain true in the time to come. Hence, this fact must be written either in simple present tense verb or in the form of verb-ing modifier as we in this sentence.

When an event is written in present perfect tense, it denotes that the event may change in the future.
We say: Sun rises in the east because this fact is never going to change. If we say: Sun has risen in the east, the sentence will mean that in present the Sun is rising in the east. But in future it may not do so.

But the use of present perfect is something that started in the past and its effect is there till present. How can we say that the effect wont be in the future?

Ron's(MGMAT) explanations- https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 70-15.html

Yeah, the usage of those tenses is different for these 2 different kinds of verbs:
1/ Actions that happen at a specific point in time
2/ Actions that represent states (= that last for a certain duration)

If you imagine a timeline as a literal graph, then #1 represents actions that would be points or dots on that number line, while #2 represents states that would be linear portions on that number line.

#1: E.g., Scott graduated from high school.
This is not an ongoing state. It's something that happens at one exact moment (the moment of graduation).

#2: E.g., Scott was married (for ten years).
Ongoing for a duration of 10 years.

See below for how you use "has/have VERBed" with these.

Type 1/
If it's a point thing, then "has/have VERBed" means ...
... it happened,
... it's somehow relevant to the present.

E.g.,
People who have graduated from high school usually find employment much more easily than people who have not.
They've graduated (at any time). We don't know when"”maybe yesterday, maybe 40 years ago.
Regardless, it's relevant to the present; we're talking about their job prospects at present.

These are past events, seen through the lens of the present.
They are not 'continuing up to the present', because these verbs represent things that CANNOT 'continue'. they happen at one exact point in time, and ... that's it.

Type 2/
If it's an ongoing state verb, then "has/have VERBed" without an explicit time period means ...
... it's happened before,
... it's not happening now.

E.g.,
I have lived in Florida.
This implies that I no longer live in Florida. If I still live there now, I'll write I live in Florida.

----- BUT -----

If, for this kind of verb, "has/have VERBed" is used with a time duration, then ...
... it has happened for that duration up to now;
... it may still be happening, or it may just have ended.

E.g.,
I have lived in Florida for twenty years. (written in 2014)
This means I've lived in Florida for the last twenty years (= 1994-2014).
I might still live there.
I may be moving right now.

Dating objects (= evaluating their age) is a point action, like graduating from high school.
So, "have been dated" means that it happened sometime"”any time"”and that it's relevant to the present. Exactly what's necessary here.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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27 Aug 2018, 06:39
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.
A. both dating
B. both of which have dated
C. and each has dated
D. and each one dating
E. each one of which date

I was down to 2: A and C; I have selected C which is wrong.

Whats wrong with C?

If we replace the Underlined part with answer choice It will be Grammatically correct : {Two independent clauses and each is referring to Acoma and Hopi }

Is it Only a meaning error??
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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03 Nov 2018, 10:57
SonGoku wrote:
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.
A. both dating
B. both of which have dated
C. and each has dated
D. and each one dating
E. each one of which date

I was down to 2: A and C; I have selected C which is wrong.

Whats wrong with C?

If we replace the Underlined part with answer choice It will be Grammatically correct : {Two independent clauses and each is referring to Acoma and Hopi }

Is it Only a meaning error??

Hi mate,

Try to understand the wonderful explanation(read below) provided in earlier post by MGMAT instructor:

In B, "have dated" doesn't make sense. Dating in this sense is not something they have actually done. It's just a way of describing how old they are. We'd say "This legend dates back to the 12th century," not "This legend has dated back to the 12th century." (This issue also rules out C, with "has dated.")
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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03 Nov 2018, 13:50
sondenso wrote:
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

(A) both dating
(B) both of which have dated
(C) and each has dated
(D) and each one dating
(E) each one of which date

The Oxford History of the American West Reprint Edition
by Clyde A. Milner (Editor), Carol A. O'Connor (Editor), Martha A. Sandweiss (Editor)

The Oxford History of the American West - Page 16

Clyde A. Milner, ‎Carol A. O'Connor, ‎Martha A. Sandweiss - 1994 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving communities, both dating back at least a thousand years; some scholars contend that the Hopi area has been occupied for several thousand years. In the centuries before the Spaniards ...

Use of perfect tense is incorrect. Hence, B and C can go.
"Each one" is redundant. Hence, D and E can go.
A, though awkward, is the best choice here.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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27 Jan 2019, 09:34
non perfect forms of verb shows an action which belong to a moment of time. perfect forms of verb show an action which precede a point of time.
the meaning of "dating" makes it it only to non perfect form, here present tense. present perfect is not fit. present perfect show an action which is finished in the past but relevant to present or an action continue to present.

dating can not continue until present time
dating can not finished in the past at no sepecific point
so, present perfect for dating is wrong
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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08 Aug 2019, 01:39
DmitryFarber wrote:
E is a simple subject-verb issue. It should be each . . . dates.

In B, "have dated" doesn't make sense. Dating in this sense is not something they have actually done. It's just a way of describing how old they are. We'd say "This legend dates back to the 12th century," not "This legend has dated back to the 12th century." (This issue also rules out C, with "has dated.")

D is just not a sentence. It links a modifier to the main clause with "and," and that doesn't work.

Hi,

Is this a general fact? So we shouldn't really use perfect tenses to describe the age of something?
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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13 Nov 2019, 01:32
Absolute phrases are saviour....just remember if its modifing the clause and not the noun then we dont need "and" or infinitive verbs. that's it....helps in elimintaitn a lot of choices.
Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun   [#permalink] 13 Nov 2019, 01:32

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