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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Re: First trenches [#permalink]

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New post 07 Aug 2010, 17:32
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Ok,I did POE and reached at E

First subject is trenches --- anywhere you see yields is out , B and D - out

left with A, C and E - having is almost always wrong on gmat - quickly eliminated C

A has got evidence for and E has got evidence that

evidence that is correct - So,E
Also, not sure whether were arising is correct in A , since the question talks about past - arose is better
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Re: First trenches [#permalink]

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New post 07 Aug 2010, 23:48
Yep it should be E.
Other options have glaring errors.
A is poorly constructed and doesn't convey the right meaning

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Re: First trenches [#permalink]

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New post 08 Aug 2010, 02:11
E is for me

trenches is plural, leave A,C,E option.

"cut into...." E is more clear than A.C
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 04 Mar 2012, 14:03
In learning of foundation of prounouns, such as that, I probably have lost the track here!
Isn't "that" suppose to refer to a singular idea/thing?

Q1) Is usage of that appropriate here ? And why?

The first trenches--- that ----were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,

Shouldn't it be "those" instead of "that", since trenches - the subject is plural? That & were - how do they go along?!!!!!

Q2) Shouldn't it be "those" here, instead of "that"?
If it represents a feeling /noun, then that should follow singular very - is/was ----
"Egypt, have yielded strong evidence for blah blah societies in blah blah ?"that"? were arising simultaneously ....


Q3)
What does prounoun "that" refer to?
Soceities right? (not the middle east)
Then shouldn't it be plural - those??

"Egypt, have yielded strong evidence for blah blah societies in blah blah ?"that"? were arising simultaneously ....

Much appreciate your help !
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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Quote:
In learning of foundation of prounouns, such as that, I probably have lost the track here!
Isn't "that" suppose to refer to a singular idea/thing?

Q1) Is usage of that appropriate here ? And why?

Q2) Shouldn't it be "those" here, instead of "that"?

Q3)
What does prounoun "that" refer to?


Yes That is supposed to refer to the singular idea/thing.
A1: Usage of that is inappropriate because you already have a main subject "the trenches". Why would you want to reiterate a subject which already exists immediately after you have introduced it, right? Later on in the sentence it makes sense to refer to it but not immediately after introduction.

A2: No. We should not use either that or those so early on. This is again drawing on answer to point 1.

A3: Correct. That here refers to the complex societies. But is wrongly used. This is the reason why the correct answer eliminates all usage of that completely. There is no ambiguity of that or those at all.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 04 Mar 2012, 22:40
Much thanks !
That was interesting !

However, I am still trying to buzz my mind around that/those.
i see some grammer pundits saying, "that" goes even with plural subject.


items produced by this machine are guaranteed to be accurately sized
vs.
items that are produced by this machine are guaranteed to be accurately sized

(there's no real difference here. so, the first one is marginally better, if only because it's more concise)

well, i understand, you dont want "that", immediately after subject.
but lets say if that's not the case....then
Would you justify use of pronoun "that", in such plural verb occasions?

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 04 Mar 2012, 22:50
OK, gotcha!!
There is a second point I forgot to mention and one that is tested on the GMAT quite often. The usage of "that" vs."which" as restrictive/non-restrictive pronouns.
-------------------------------------------
Source: GMAT Hacks website.
Here's a handy way to remember the rule: "That" is restrictive, while "which" is non-restrictive. The rule will make more sense after some further discussion.

Consider two similar sentences:

I'm staying at the hotel in Chicago that the Andersons operate.
I'm staying at the hotel in Chicago, which the Andersons operate.
------------------------------------------------
So, the next question: Do that and which refer to plurals or singulars?
They can refer to the whole sentence/noun phrase/noun/pronoun.

So, in summary, that is a pronoun, a restrictive prounoun and pronoun used for comparisons. You should be familiar with each of the usages for GMAT SC.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 07 Mar 2012, 19:09
First of, thanks for the research, mourinhogmat1 !

Regarding
mourinhogmat1 wrote:
Consider two similar sentences:

I'm staying at the hotel in Chicago that the Andersons operate.
I'm staying at the hotel in Chicago, which the Andersons operate.
------------------------------------------------
So, the next question: Do that and which refer to plurals or singulars?
They can refer to the whole sentence/noun phrase/noun/pronoun.

So, in summary, that is a pronoun, a restrictive prounoun and pronoun used for comparisons. You should be familiar with each of the usages for GMAT SC.

Sorry, but I think "that" in above sentence is not used as pronoun. It's used as a starter for a modifier.
The which doesnt really care about the "the andersons operate" (modifier), but on it's antecedant hotel

Take a look at this -
[Incorrect] I am staying at various hotels, which Paris Hilton operates.
[Correct] I am staying at various hotels, that paris hilton operate.

I think instead of studying business, I am doing research on English grammer now :)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 07 Mar 2012, 19:13
so I researched more (on english grammer, not in business), and this is what I think -
mourinhogmat1 wrote:
Yes That is supposed to refer to the singular idea/thing.
A1: Usage of that is inappropriate because you already have a main subject "the trenches". Why would you want to reiterate a subject which already exists immediately after you have introduced it, right? Later on in the sentence it makes sense to refer to it but not immediately after introduction.


It's perfectly fine to use that, immediately after the subject. Let it re-iterate itself :)
It's little idomatic-modifier start-up usage.

Welcoming suggestion from all gmat pundits here (including mourinhogmat1) :)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 05 Feb 2013, 03:48
Hi guy

In all fairness, I think is wrong to attack such complex question in the way you did, with the use of that as pivot point.

Moreover, I'm honest to say that me too had problems simply because
- this kind of question is difficult only for the reason that when you read it from the beginning, when you are in the end of the phrase you already forgot where you stand: lost

- is important to understand the exact time line, without this process you always will pick such question wrong or at least you pick right but after five minute (during the exam the pressure blow your mind for sure) that is the same to pick it wrong.

Now back to the question: the acheologists do something NOW (cut a site into pieces) and discover something else (in that place complex societies took place) and the societies AROSE, in the past.

If you use arise or arising the societies seem still there. as an ongoing situation

Infact E is the answer

cut (now) into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously (one time) with but and so on

If you do not understand clearly thi first split (the land were cut not in the past but NOW) by someone. They cut the land into acres \(NOW\) :)

Focus on the whole picture. Grammar is important but try to understand a macro vision of the sentence

;)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 05 Feb 2013, 06:52
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
We can use THAT after trenches (as in the case of option A & B) . We can use either relative clause or participle (among others) to modify a noun. It's not specific modifier that matters but the meaning of the sentence.
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Both of the above colored portion are CORRECTLY modifying noun TRENCHES. But there are other error present in option A & B. The Errors are as follows:-
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution.
(In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution. (In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)
Simple present is generally used for facts, truth etc, thus use of YIELDS is incorrect over here


I hope this explanation will help you.

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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targetgmatchotu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


Have issues with the use of "that",I have read forums for the discussion about this one.
Although I accept that "evidence for" is wrongly used and "evidence that" is the right usage, some discussions said about the use of "that"
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
How do we know that author is talking about "first trenches" or he is talking about the "first trenches that were cut into"?
And for the second "that" used after "Middle East" is there any reason why it is wrongly used other than that it modifies "middle east" ,although it should have modified "societies"

I'm happy to help with this. :-) This is SC#70 from the OG13.

The opening choices ------
"The first trenches that were cut ...." ----- this modifies "trenches" with a subordinate clause, a clause beginning with "that". This is perfectly correct.
"The first trenches having been cut ...." --- participle with a strange tense, not correct
"The first trenches cut ...." ---- as fameatop pointed out above, this is participial phrase, also 100% correct. For more on participial phrases, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/

The difference between this would be like the difference between
(a) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now .....
(b) The horse, traded for an electric guitar, was now ....
(a) is a "that" clause construction, (b) is a participial construction, and both are correct.

You see, grammar is complex. You can just memorize a simple rule like don't drop the word "that" ----- There are two very different "that" clauses to consider.

Category #1: relative clauses
This is what appears in this sentence. Here, the word "that" acting as a relative pronoun -- others include who, whom, whoever, etc. Within the relative clause, the relative pronoun acts as a pronoun within the clause, often the subject of the clause. Let's look at (A) from the prompt ---- the relative clause is in green.
(1) The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria have yielded ...
Within that clause, the pronoun "that" is the subject of the clause, the subject of the verb "were cut."
Other examples includes
(2) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now ....
(3) The regions of Europe that Julius Caesar conquered were not .....
In #2, the word "that" is also the subject of the clause, now the subject of the verb "was traded." In #3, the word "that" is the direct object of the verb "conquered."

Nobody drops the "that" from a relative clause ----- since "that" is acts as a pronoun in the clause, it always sound terribly awkward to drop a pronoun. Pick any sentence with a pronoun, and say the sentence without the pronoun --- it will sound bizarre and incomplete Nobody makes this mistake. The dropping the "that" mistake is never a concern with relative clauses.

Category #2: substantive clauses
For more on this structure, read these two posts:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/substantiv ... -the-gmat/
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-idiom ... ieve-that/
This is what we have following the word "evidence" in the SC sentence above ---- evidence that ..., know that ...., hope that ...., wish that ...., believe that ..... hypothesis that .... etc. etc. etc.
Here, the word "that" is followed by a full [noun] + [verb] clause. Examples, with substantive clause in green ----
(4) .... evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(5) The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal.
(6) The senator said that he will not seek reelection.
In all three cases, what follows "that" is a full clause --- in each case, we could extract the green section, throw away the word "that", and the rest of the green part could stand on its own as a full complete sentence. Here, the word "that" is NOT acting as a pronoun --- rather, it is serving to introduce a full clause. Because the word "that" plays no essential role within the clause, it is very tempting to drop it --- in fact, people do all the time in casual conversation, and the GMAT always tests this. This is where one has to have one's antennae up, looking for this very predictable mistake.

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 05 Feb 2013, 14:56
Your explantion Mike is outstanding but in my opinion who study Sentence Correction more clinically than logically tend to struggle because their view becomes too technical.

I admit the importance and the distinction among the rules to clarify and consolidate the concepts.

however, on the upper level question to catch the gist of the sentence is more important.

Grammar rules lead you to the next level but after some point if you rely too much on rules, you lose the compass.

I didn't ask to myself where "that" standed for and the significance of it.

I understood that "cut" was the key and D was ackward and wrong because if you read the entire sentence it unfolds not so clearly.

Otherwise A student could be stuck in a limbo for endless time. my personal opinion, acceptable or not

For the rest thanks for the super super super amazing explanation :)

To completely understand what I mean here an article (it is like a windfall in this situation) from brian galvin - veritas prep

Fraud or Phenom In Sentence Correction


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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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2013gmat wrote:

1)that were cut(verb)
2)cut into(modifier)

then which one should I choose? and are there any specific rules for that???

Thanks for your help always


First, meaning is key to solve this question
The trenches cut into something (Active voice)
--OR--
The trenches were cut into something? (Passive voice)

Clearly, the trenches only cut into something (how the trenches were cut (passive voice) into something? :?: )

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
Wrong. Passive voice is wrong.

B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
Wrong.
Same as in A. --> Passive voice is wrong.
Trenches is plural --> "yields" is wrong.
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
Wrong. "having been cut" is ungrammatical.

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Correct.
Active voice "the trenches cut into something" <-- correct.
Contrast meaning: arose simultaneously with but independently.... <-- correct.

Hope it helps.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 10 Sep 2013, 21:37
The first trenches ...

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Contd...have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East

that( Refers to societies) were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

I have a question regarding the idiom "Evidence that", "Evidence for" and "Evidence of". Evidence that is the right idiom? It was between A and E ( I eliminated A cos it was passive voice) Others had subject-verb agreement issues ( yields)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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Let me give a different perspective about the use of active and passive voices here.
Quote:
The trenches that were cut
The trenches cut

IMO, both the above are passive voices. One may say that first one is wordier by two words. You might see that a trench has to be cut by somebody. It cannot cut itself or cut another. The cut is used in the sense of a past participle and not past tense at best; one may say that the first is wordier by two words
So whenever you use trench with the verb cut, it will always be in passive. However a trench can run along some route, when it will be in active voice. I hope this difference is realized
Therefore the reason that A is wrong is because of that idiom, evidence for; evidence that is the accepted idiom, So E wins.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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nelz007 wrote:
The first trenches ...

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Contd...have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East

that( Refers to societies) were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

I have a question regarding the idiom "Evidence that", "Evidence for" and "Evidence of". Evidence that is the right idiom? It was between A and E ( I eliminated A cos it was passive voice) Others had subject-verb agreement issues ( yields)


Hi Nelson,

Let me address your confusion regarding the above mentioned usages of “evidence” with simple examples.

a. The police found evidence that Syrio was present at the crime scene when the crime happened.
b. The police found evidence for Syrio was present at the crime scene… (Police found evidence because Syrio was present at the crime scene. Changes the meaning).
c. The police found evidence of Syrio was present at the crime scene…(Completely incorrect. It doesn’t make sense to use a clause after “evidence of”)
d. There was ample evidence for the police to file a case against Syrio.
e. The police found no evidence of gun at the crime scene.

Notice how when “evidence” is followed by that, the “that clause” describes what that evidence in fact is. This is absolutely in line with how a typically noun modifier works. You have a noun that is followed by a that clause that explains this noun.

Likewise, when evidence is followed by “for” or “on”, you can see that it is followed by a noun.

So really speaking you do not need to think of “evidence” in terms of an idiom. It works in the same way as any other noun entity would work. But yes, whether evidence should be followed by “that” or by a preposition “for” or “on” depends on what you want to communicate through the sentence.

Hope this helps! :)

Regards,
Krishna
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 03 Dec 2013, 09:58
Clause breakup

1. the first trenches - NOUN
2. that were cut into a 500 acre site at ..syria , have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the middle east –
Error -1 fragment error – two verb in one clause for one subject – S- V error
That correctly refers to the trenches but need to change that clause modifier to verb ed modifier to adjust S-V pair .
3.that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated
city states of southern Mesopotamia, in

Error 2– that is used to modify preceding clause that incorrectly modifies the preceding noun Middle east only where it should modify the whole preceding clause

Error 3 – As per OG rule for greater clarity and concision, 2 DC [Subordinate] structure should be condensed into one

4. what is now southern Iraq.- Non underlined portion.


1. plural subject – trenches and have yielded ok - S-V pair ok
2. verb tense ok .
3. S-V pair error
4. Modifier placement error


Is the analysis ok ? Want to know except A why B,C,D are incorrect ?



A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but[/quote]
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 04 Dec 2013, 04:14
not only... but also
to say about 2 thing similar

...but ...

to say about two things different, a contrast.

try to understand meaning to use words, a game on sc.

noun+having+done, never exist in english grammar and never exist on gmat land. this is a hard and fast rule which we can use to eliminate an answer choice without reading/understanding the meaning.

if we see a split
noun +(noun+that clause)
vs
noun +that clause.

then the focus of meaning is changed. normally the under pattern is correct.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at   [#permalink] 04 Dec 2013, 04:14

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