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605-655 Level|   Grammatical/Rhetorical Construction|   Parallelism|   Subject Verb Agreement|                                 
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 31 Jan 2022, 16:20
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jerrywu
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.


(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Show more

I solved this problem as follows:
The main subject is "trenches", which requires a plural verb. Choices #2 and #4 have singular verbs. Wrong.

I eliminated #3 because "having been cut" is a perfect participle meant to indicate that something happened prior. But the point isn't that it happened before! It's just that it happened.

Then I looked at #1 and #5 and decided that I would look at the end (to give myself something fresh to analyze).

#1: evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states

#5: evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states

The evidence it provides is not mere proof of existence ("evidence for...societies") but rather proof that something happened ("evidence that...societies...arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states").

Thus, there's no doubt in my mind that it is number 5.
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Apr 2022, 07:41
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Hi avigutman - i was stuck between (A) vs (E) - i am trying to use meaning / logic to choose between the two and not just idioms.

What is the author trying to convey ? I think there are 2 options regarding what the author wants to convey.

Quote:

(1) trenches are proof of the existence of centrally administered complex societies
or
(2) trenches are proof that centrally administered complex societies arose
Show more


How would you ascertain (from a meaning perspective), which one of the 2 options is what trenches proove ?

I actually thought it made more sense to say -- trenches proove the existence of centrally administered complex societies, rather than proof that something happened

Hence i chose (A) based on "what makes more sense"
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Apr 2022, 11:12
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jabhatta2
I think there are 2 options regarding what the author wants to convey.

Quote:

(1) trenches are proof of the existence of centrally administered complex societies
or
(2) trenches are proof that centrally administered complex societies arose


How would you ascertain (from a meaning perspective), which one of the 2 options is what trenches proove ?

I actually thought it made more sense to say -- trenches proove the existence of centrally administered complex societies, rather than proof that something happened

Hence i chose (A) based on "what makes more sense"
Show more

Can you try to rewrite the two options for what the author is trying to convey, jabhatta2, but this time include this part: independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Apr 2022, 14:42
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avigutman

Can you try to rewrite the two options for what the author is trying to convey, jabhatta2, but this time include this part: independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia
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Hi avigutman - written out the sentences as requested

Quote:

(1) trenches are proof of the existence of centrally administered complex societies (in the middle east) (that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia)

or

(2) trenches are proof that centrally administered complex societies arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia
Show more

In (1) -- the stuff in the brackets are modifiers to societies. The blue modifier is passable too. The modifier in blue gives us MORE info (like a FYI) about these complex societies

In (2) -- the verb 'arose' MAKES sense with the pink.
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Apr 2022, 15:36
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jabhatta2

(1) trenches are proof of the existence of centrally administered complex societies (in the middle east) (that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia)

or

(2) trenches are proof that centrally administered complex societies arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia

In (1) -- the stuff in the brackets are modifiers to societies. The blue modifier is passable too. The modifier in blue gives us MORE info (like a FYI) about these complex societies

In (2) -- the verb 'arose' MAKES sense with the pink.
Show more

Let's dig in to that blue modifier now, jabhatta2. In order to decide whether it's passable, we have to consider meaning, not just grammar.
So, this FYI about these complex societies... In your view, does it make sense with this overarching goal:
jabhatta2
(1) trenches are proof of the existence of centrally administered complex societies
Show more
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Apr 2022, 09:17
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avigutman - Does the blue makes sense with the overarching goal ?

That modifier is used when you want to distinguish between 2 groups. So the blue modifer implies there are 2 types of complex socieities.

Quote:

(type 1) -- complex societies that were arising simultaneously with but independently of more celebrated city-states
(type 2) -- complex societies that were NOT arising simultaneously with but independently of more celebrated city-states
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These Trenches could very well, show proof of the existence of (type 1) complex societies
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Apr 2022, 11:55
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jabhatta2

That modifier is used when you want to distinguish between 2 groups. So the blue modifer implies there are 2 types of complex socieities.

Quote:

(type 1) -- complex societies that were arising simultaneously with but independently of more celebrated city-states
(type 2) -- complex societies that were NOT arising simultaneously with but independently of more celebrated city-states

These Trenches could very well, show proof of the existence of (type 1) complex societies
Show more

jabhatta2 part of our job in SC is to be a mind reader: which interpretation is the author more likely to be trying to convey? Here are analogous sentences for (A) and (E) in case that's helpful:

(A) The study has yielded strong evidence for democracy in America that was arising simultaneously with but independently of the more well known democracies of Europe [as opposed to democracy in America that wasn't arising simultaneously with but independently of the more well known democracies of Europe]

(E) The study has yielded strong evidence that democracy in America arose simultaneously with but independently of the more well known democracies of Europe.

Try to imagine this author writing the sentence as an announcement, perhaps to let people know that their prior assumptions were wrong. What could those prior assumptions have been? If the author is attempting to change the reader's mind, or educate the reader, what could the reader have been thinking prior to reading the sentence? Feel free to respond with your thoughts on the above.
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Apr 2022, 17:59
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jabhatta2
How would you ascertain (from a meaning perspective), which one of the 2 options is what trenches proove ?

I actually thought it made more sense to say -- trenches proove the existence of centrally administered complex societies, rather than proof that something happened
Show more
Most of us simply concluded that the writer was referring to proof that something happened. But let us say that the other meaning is equally possible; perhaps the writer meant proof that something exists.

We now have two possible meanings. What to do? Should we choose an answer based on our best guess of what the author meant?

That could go wrong (as it did for you). In a case like this, look at other differences between A and E. After all, meaning is not the only thing that matters in SC.

The writers of this question cleverly made A and E different enough. The other differences between A and E give E an edge.

You don't want to rely on idioms, but you can look at verb tense, concision, crispness.
Our job in SC is to choose the best of the five answers, and E is better than A

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Apr 2022, 18:36
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Please read this
https://www.mba.com/exams-and-exam-prep ... xpert-tips

The article says, "Once you have eliminated a few answer choices, make sure to carefully leverage every clue provided by the differences in the remaining answer choices".

It goes on to say, "Analyzing every little hint that is given by differences in the answers is the key on this GMAT Verbal question type, yet students rarely do that effectively."

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Apr 2022, 22:29
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jabhatta2


We can make a pretty strong case that meaning #1 is not intended. First, if the sentence wanted to talk about evidence for the existence of these societies, then it could add easily add that word for clarity. The fact that it didn't, and that several of the answer choices provide a different meaning, is evidence in itself. It's also not clear that "evidence for societies" really means anything. Evidence of societies would be clear, but evidence "for" something would usually be evidence to support a case, or a particular party in an argument ("evidence for my hypothesis," "evidence for the prosecution"). It isn't normally used when we're trying to see whether something exists at all. As we've just seen, there are other, clearer ways to do that.

However, the biggest problem of all with #1 is that it doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence. If we read (A) that way, the sentence is saying that we have "evidence for" these societies, but it's also saying that these societies "were arising,' etc. If we know for a fact when these societies arose, how could their existence still be a matter of debate? And if we don't know when they arose, then that's more reason to use meaning #2. We're not just trying to see if these societies existed at all; we're trying to figure out their chronology.
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 17 Jul 2022, 16:43
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KarishmaB
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Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.


"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.
As pointed out by Vercules above, "cut into a 500 acre" can be replaced by "that were cut into a 500 acre". The meaning doesn't change but you can see clearly that "cut into..." is modifying trenches.
The verb is 'have yielded'.
Show more

KarishmaB

I am a bit confused on the parallelism requirement mentioned above

"were arising simultaneously but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> NOT PARALLEL
were arising simultaneously with but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> PARALLEL"


What does the "with" mean in this case? Does it mean that the societies arose when southern Mesopotamia arose, but they were not connected to southern Mesopotamia?
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 18 Jul 2022, 05:37
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KarishmaB
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Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.


"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.
As pointed out by Vercules above, "cut into a 500 acre" can be replaced by "that were cut into a 500 acre". The meaning doesn't change but you can see clearly that "cut into..." is modifying trenches.
The verb is 'have yielded'.

KarishmaB

I am a bit confused on the parallelism requirement mentioned above

"were arising simultaneously but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> NOT PARALLEL
were arising simultaneously with but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> PARALLEL"


What does the "with" mean in this case? Does it mean that the societies arose when southern Mesopotamia arose, but they were not connected to southern Mesopotamia?
Show more


This is what the 'that' clause is:

... societies ... arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ...

It connects two ideas:

... societies ... arose simultaneously with the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ...
... societies ... arose independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ...

Using 'but' we have connected both these ideas together but if separated they both should make sense with the rest of the sentence.

If we remove 'with,' this is what we get:
... societies ... arose simultaneously but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ...

which breaks into two like this:

... societies ... arose simultaneously of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ... (doesn't make sense)
... societies ... arose independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia ... (acceptable)

Societies can rise simultaneously with city-states..., not simultaneously of city-states ...
Hence, we need the 'with' we have put after 'simultaneously.'
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 12 Nov 2022, 12:24
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Quote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Show more
Hi experts,
So, can I say that ''strong evidence'' is the object of ''centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose''?
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 12 Nov 2022, 12:30
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Quote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.


(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Show more
The first trenches THAT WERE cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

Hi RonTargetTestPrep, MartyTargetTestPrep, GMATNinja
What is the difference between choice E and the above one?
This types of questions confused me a lot to make the decision!
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 20 Jan 2023, 04:37
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jerrywu
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.


(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Show more

Simultaneously with more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia

Option C, D are out

Use of “for” in option A changes the meaning (implies information for CACS instead of information regarding CACS). Option A is out

“Yields” with “Trenches” causes S-V disagreement. Option B is out

Hence, Option E
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Feb 2023, 09:47
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ReedArnoldMPREP AjiteshArun EducationAisle IanStewart

In (A) - why is "Evidence For" wrong ?

I understand idioms have to be memorized but If I was to make some SIMPLE sentences, something is awry.

Don't we say the following

-- Journalists from Africa have provided evidence for War Crimes

-- Scientists have provided evidence for climate change

-- The prosecution has provided sufficient evidence for the death penalty.

Similarly - i thought the first trenches provided evidence FOR centrally administered complex societies

-----------

Other than idiom - any better way to eliminate (A) ?
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Feb 2023, 11:08
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jabhatta2

In (A) - why is "Evidence For" wrong ?

I understand idioms have to be memorized but If I was to make some SIMPLE sentences, something is awry.
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I at first wondered why you were asking, because we say "evidence for" all the time. Then I read the first few replies in this thread, where three experts all claim that the phrase "evidence for" is not idiomatic. Those posts are all wrong. The phrase "evidence for" has a slightly different meaning than the phrase "evidence of", and they can't be used interchangeably, but "evidence for" is certainly fine when it's used correctly. I'll suggest reading Dmitry Farber's post above if you want a good explanation of the subtle difference in meaning of those two phrases. I wouldn't say answer A is wrong on idiom grounds here; it just doesn't convey the meaning the sentence intends, and its choice of verb tenses is a bit incomprehensible.
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 28 Feb 2023, 13:07
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HI IanStewart – one last q on (A)

Not sure why the verb “were arising” in (A) is wrong exactly.

“Were arising” is past continuous progressive

The past continuous progressive per my understanding is used for actions

- in the past
- Action that is ONGOING WITH another event

Please correct me if i am wrong.

If so, in this case -- isn't "Were arising" apt because "Were arising" was ongoing WITH ANOTHER EVENT ?

The OTHER EVENT is "simultaneously with the city-states of southern Mesopotamia"
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 06 Jun 2023, 07:17
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although " that were cut" is overly wordy is this deterministic error
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tsraeroshad
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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar 29 Jun 2023, 06:18
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I understand that E might be the best among the lot.
But I can't come terms with how this is correct:

".....simultaneously with but also independently...."

Can someone help me with this. Also could you show any other example where such a construction is used.
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