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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 24 Oct 2017, 09:58
Scorpi0n wrote:
After 4 pages of writind and discussing, we are yet to know why A is wrong? Can it be past - past continuous, evidence for/that, or trenches (that were) cut?

And I really wonder what those more concrete reasons are, Deepak.




Hello Scorpi0n,

I will be glad to help you out with one. :-)


Following are the reason why Choice A is incorrect.

i. Use of evidence for is incorrect in the context of this sentence. The context makes it clear that the trenches provide evidence about something. The best way to express this meaning is by stating evidence that xyz.

ii. This sentence presents general information about a place in the past context. hence, use of simple present tense verb arose is far better than using the past progressive/continuous tense verb were arising.

The above-mentioned are concrete reasons to eliminate Choice A confidently.


Hope this helps. :-)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Oct 2017, 12:27
1
Scorpi0n wrote:
Quote:
Rhetorical construction; Agreement; Grammatical construction

This sentence, explaining interconnections among a number of events, needs to be streamlined as much as possible in order to become understandable. To this end, unnecessary words and structures should be eliminated. Prominent among these are the relative clauses beginning with that.

Additionally, the subject of this sentence is the plural trenches, which requires a plural verb.
A That were cut ... and that were arising ... are unnecessarily wordy and create an unnecessarily complicated and confusing sentence structure.
B In addition to the unnecessarily wordy relative clauses, the singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches.
C Having been cut ... is unnecessarily wordy; arising simultaneously must be followed by the preposition with in order to make sense.
D The singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches; also adds no meaning to the sentence.
E Correct. Unnecessary clauses and phrases are avoided, and the subject and verb of the main clause agree in number.

The correct answer is E.



There is no mention of "evidence for" being wrong.




Hello Scorpi0n,


With all my experience with and research of official sentences, I have come to believe that while the officials questions remain unmatched in terms of quality, the same cannot be said for the official explanations.

In fact, many a times, the explanations are not only confusing but out-right incorrect. Hence, at e-gmat.com, we explain each an every official question from self-analysis.

Hence, even if the official explanation makes no mention of evidence for as an error in the original sentence, I do consider it an error because this phrase does not work in the context of the sentence.


Hope this helps. :-)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 03 Nov 2017, 13:31
2
woodywheel wrote:
i understood the explanation and how we narrowed our choices down to E, but i am confused with subject verb pairing here :-
- the first trenches (subject ) that ( again can be considered subject ) were (verb for that )....., have yielded (verb modifying first trenches) .......societies ( can we consider this as a subject ?) ... that were arising ( verb modiying that) - in this case verb modifying societies is missing, and in case of option E since there is no "that " arose directly modifies societies?

i am trying to figure out
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )




Hello woodywheel,


I will be glad to help you out with this one. :-)


Following is the structure of the original sentence:

The first trenches
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East
that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia,
in what is now southern Iraq.


(Subjects = blue, verbs = green)

Now let's come to your questions:

Quote:
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.


That is correct.


Quote:
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....



That is correct.


Quote:
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?



No. With the removal of that, cut no longer remains a verb. It becomes a noun modifier that modifies The first trenches. Only have yielded is the verb for this subject.



Quote:
4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?



Yes, were arising is the verb for that.


Quote:
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )


There is no verb for societies because it does not act as a subject. Please note that a noun preceded by a preposition can NEVER be a subject.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Dec 2017, 13:52
tanww1987 wrote:
Hi all, would appreciate some help on the times where "that" is needed and isn't. Simple example below, is it wrong to say the first trenches that were cut?


No, it isn't wrong. D and E use one type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a participle). A and B use a different type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a relative pronoun). Both of these are good types of modifiers. For instance, both of these sentences are correct:

'The horses housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'

'The horses that are housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 21 Aug 2018, 23:26
1
VeritasKarishma wrote:
Archit143 wrote:
Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.

Consider kudos if my post helps!!!!!

Archit


"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.
As pointed out by Vercules above, "cut into a 500 acre" can be replaced by "that were cut into a 500 acre". The meaning doesn't change but you can see clearly that "cut into..." is modifying trenches.
The verb is 'have yielded'.


Responding to a pm:
Quote:
Here I'm completely confused with the first usage of "that" in the sentence "The first trenches THAT were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,". Isn't "THAT" a relative pronoun here, which should refer to "TRENCHES", and if it refers to trenches here, isn't this redundant to use.
"The first trenches that(trenches) were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,"


Yes, "that" is a relative pronoun and "that were cut ...Syria" is a defining relative clause.
You can omit the relative pronoun when it acts as the object of the relative clause. You cannot omit it when it acts as the subject of the relative clause.
Here it acts as the subject "trenches were cut ..." hence you cannot omit "that".

Alternatively, option (E) uses a participle and that is correct too.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Sep 2018, 03:48
Oh my god!!. I see lot of expert replies with long explanation.

Simple rule for this question is author is talking about the past, so everything in the sentence should be in simple past and evidence should be followed by that. I can see both in option E

Option (E): cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally
administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Kudos for the post
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 11 Nov 2018, 08:59
GMATNinja VeritasKarishma daagh
I have a doubt Isn't arising and simultaneously redundant ?
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 11 Nov 2018, 09:56
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Just try and remove the suspected redundant words one by one and see if the meaning is intact?
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 30 Dec 2018, 05:55
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but => Evidence for is incorrect idiom

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also => The first trenches is plural - Yields is singular verb (SV agreement error)

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but => Removal of "with" after simultaneously leads to idiomatic error

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also => The first trenches is plural - Yields is singular verb (SV agreement error) & Removal of "with" after simultaneously leads to idiomatic error

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but => Correct
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 31 Dec 2018, 14:53
It's certainly okay to use "but also" without first saying "not only." It works as long as we are presenting contrasting elements, as the word "but" normally indicates. The "not only . . . but also" structure is an exception where "but" is used to link two similar elements. The word "also" isn't really needed in B, but it's not wrong, either. It's much simpler to eliminate B for subject-verb agreement ("trenches . . . yields"). In fact, looking for S-V agreement should almost always be the first thing we do.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jan 2019, 15:30
Hello Everyone!

Let's take a look at this question, one issue at a time, and narrow it down to the correct answer! To begin, let's take a quick look at the question and highlight any major differences between the options in orange:

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

After a quick glance over the options, a few key differences jumped out:

1. that were cut / having been cut / cut
2. have yielded vs. yields
3. how each option ends (hint: it's a parallelism issue)


The best one for us to start with is actually #2 on our list: have yielded vs. yields. This is the best place to start because regardless of which one we choose, we'll eliminate 2-3 options rather quickly. Since these are both verbs, we should check to make sure they agree with the subject:

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

Since the subject of the sentence is plural, we need to make sure the verbs we use are also plural. Let's see how each option breaks down:

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

We can eliminate options B and D because they use the singular "yields" with the plural subject "trenches," which doesn't agree.

Now that we're down to 3 options, let's go back and take a look at #1 and #3 on our list. We need to make sure that we're being as clear and concise as possible here, so let's rule out any options that are overly wordy, unclear, or don't use parallel structure:

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

This is INCORRECT because it's overly wordy. There is no difference between saying "that were cut" and "cut" in this sentence, so why add unnecessary extras? We also have an idiom problem with the phrase "evidence for." In English, we say "evidence of," "evidence that," or "evidence which," but we do NOT say "evidence for."

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

Again, this is INCORRECT because the phrase "having been cut" is overly wordy and awkward. You can just say "cut" and it conveys essentially the same thing. There's also a parallelism issue here, too! Here's the problem - both items need to work with the phrase "southern Mesopotamia" directly after them:

were arising simultaneously but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> NOT PARALLEL
were arising simultaneously with but independently of southern Mesopotamia --> PARALLEL

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

This is CORRECT! It's clear, concise, follow idiom rules, and uses parallel structure.


There you have it - option E is the correct choice!


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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jan 2019, 10:14
The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

B. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously but

C. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jan 2019, 10:40
In answer choice E, correct use of simple past “arose” and of - evidence that.... are correct and hence E is the correct answer choice.

So IMO E

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post Updated on: 29 Jan 2019, 10:36
Adding to your post -

- Notice the placement of "that" in A and E! E makes it more clear!


The first obvious split we have is - but vs with but

So what do we need logically here?

Notice the word "simultaneously" -
Complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states.

It is trying to imply two things -
Complex societies were arising simultaneously with the more celebrated city-states.
Complex societies were arising independently of the more celebrated city-states.

Now what is "but" doing?
The author is trying to bring a contrast (or rather add some weight) "simultaneously BUT independently".
Read this - Complex societies were arising simultaneously with the more celebrated city-states BUT independently of the more celebrated city-states.

If we do not have "with" then "simultaneously" cannot make stand on its own. The following simple example might help!
XYZ happened simultaneously with UVW. Correct
XYZ happened simultaneously UVW. Incorrect

Hope this helps!

Originally posted by blitzkriegxX on 28 Jan 2019, 10:52.
Last edited by blitzkriegxX on 29 Jan 2019, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar  [#permalink]

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New post 29 Jan 2019, 10:05
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.


(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/23/science/ruins-alter-ideas-of-how-civilization-spread.html

The first trenches cut into the large 500-acre site, Tell Hamoukar, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East apparently arose simultaneously but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq. In the conventional view, civilization was thought to begin solely in the south and then move north through trade and colonization.

Attachment:
01.jpg

Attachment:
02.jpg




Trenches is plural. S-V agreement error in B and D.
In A,C and E, cutting all the fluff out, we are left with
A : the Trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site ... have yielded strong evidence for .......societies in northern regions that were arising simultaneously with but
independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
C : the Trenches having been cut into a 500-acre site ... have yielded strong evidence that .. societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
E : cut into a 500-acre site ... have yielded strong evidence that .. societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

Here, considering the meaning helped me choose E.
The sentence is speaking about certain regions rose along with certain other regions . So, I think using the simple past "Arose" conveys better meaning than "were arising". Besides, how can trenches depict a changing region?
Let me know if I'm wrong.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar   [#permalink] 29 Jan 2019, 10:05

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