Wharton - ugly stats for 2007 internships

I wouldn't go that far, it certainly takes a tremendous amount of hard work to be Michael Jordan vs. a fry cook, but it also has to do with how unique your skills are. Honestly, there are about as many people in this world that could do what Jack Welch did at GE as there are All-Stars in the NBA. Just look at his successor to see how hard that job is.

Again, your father's smarts have nothing to do with how much he should make. It's all supply and demand. In terms of employment, supply and demand concerns skills.

You're father might be smarter, but you obviously have skills that are in higher demand. Of course, there are other variables. Those guys working on fishing boats in Alaska don't necessarily have better skills at fishing than the guy barely scraping by in New England, but their skills are worth more in Alaska than New England.

Either way, I think people have been pretty reasonable in this thread. I find it interesting none the less.

RF

Isn't that exactly what I said?

My point being, in a free market system, what you get paid isn't determined by how important your work is (ex. teacher or doctor), how hard you work (ex. laying asphalt in 100F weather), how much the product you produce is worth (Ford vs. Ferrari assembler), how much education you have (PhD in English vs. Nursing degree) or the many other factors that people think pay "should" be based on.

For the most part your salary is based on the market's demand for your skills and the existing supply of people with those skills. That's why people with high tech skills were making a killing in the late 1990s. It also explains why they aren't now.

RF

Well said.

highhopes -

i love your avatar! That's hilarious. You shouldn't change your opinion in b-school because it's unpopular and I hope you don't meet anyone that expects you to. If you do, quote me and tell them I think they're an idiot. I'm loving this discussion/debate. I think too often people blur the lines between NEED and WANT. I agree, I didn't need that 32" LCD screen and honestly I regret buying it last November even though it was the cheapest model at Wal-Mart.

To dispell some of the statements on here about a person making $48k and being screwed if they have 1 kid.

I'll give some background on myself.

Mom - College educated. English teacher at a high school and teaches AP writing courses for college credit to the students too.
Rather - High school diploma. Works for an aviation company. Used to do avionics (installing radios and instruments), the job got sent to a city 100 miles away and my dad chose to stay in a smaller town. He then went to work doing sheetmetal and hated it, but wanted to keep his family in a smaller town. He now does maintenance and enjoys it.

1 brother - graduated from college 3 years before me. Same college. He went on to medical school and the navy. Served in Iraq with the Marines stationed between Baghdad, Fallujah and Ramadi (great territory). I'm very proud of him.

I went to law school (kind of the antithesis of med school don't you think? The irony isn't lost on me.)

I have 2 kids, I make $47,000/year and I have a law degree. I live in Oklahoma City, so the $47k does go further than most everywhere else in the US. I assume that the $32k or even the $48k you speak of is in a bigger city with higher cost of living. I worked fulltime through law school and stayed in a job too long that I knew was ending (boss unsuccessfully ran for higher office) rather than getting an internship at a law firm. My mistake. It's freaking tough to find a job as an attorney around here that pays between $50k - $60k with no experience and decent grades but nothing spectacular.

We have health insurance. It's not great, but it's health insurance. Medical, Dental, Vision. We have 2 cars. I drive a 1966 Mustang that I bought 3 years ago. I've not had the time to do so. My wife drives a 1998 Chevy Venture Minivan. It's paid off and my mustang has about 12 months left on the note. We pay a total $176 per month in car loan payments. The minivan has a new engine and it's all paid off.

We spend about $350 a month on groceries, counting 2 kids under 3years old in diapers (potty training is going better for my daughter, so I'm hopeful)

We've been blessed that my brother has 4 kids (2 boys and 2 girls) so they've lent us a bunch of clothes.

Our house payment is $850 a month for a 1450 sq ft house, brick with wood floors (average house) and built in 1963.

My wife works part-time at Mother's Day Out and designs children's clothes and her business is really starting to do well.

The point of all of this is that there are very few things that are NEEDS. Could we get by with 1 car? Probably. Do I want to? Heck no, because it's more convenient this way and I know my Mustang is of course the one that will be sold!

I have never said and would not begin to say it's easy for everyone. I'm using myself as an example because I know it's possible to raise a family in a city with $47k in income. As I said before, the buying power of my income in OKC is going to be much greather than the $48k mentioned in a prior post.

My wife and I have consciously made decisions in order to have other things in our life that we value. One of those is her ability to be at home with the kids. We could view other items that we want and say we actually NEED them so she has to work, but we pass on those wants in order to have other things.

The power to choose is the most power any person has regardless of economic situation. No one can take it away from you, and no one can control your choice. People view a choice they must make and analyze the consequences of each option. If they don't like one of the consequences that comes with a choice, then they start to believe they MUST choose the alternative when in reality it is still their choice of consequences, or effects of that choice.

I view the inability to take control of one's life and own up to the fact that we all make choices as weak. It's easier to say I had no choice and this happened to me, or I couldn't control it, but we ALWAYS have choices.

The problem with this is that often these decisions are made for people and not by people. Its a lot easier to make the 'right' decisions when you grow up in a great household with successful parents to show you the way. It's hard to make the decision to get an MBA when you have to start working at 18 to support yourself. So you take a minimum wage job to survive. Was that really a choice? Hmmm....work a minimum wage job or be homeless. So now that you work full-time, when are you going to go to go to school and how are you going to pay for it? So I guess their only other way to become rich is work 80 hours a week. But 80 hours a week at $10 ain't going to get you rich.

I have to say I admire your ability to manage your finances but OKC seems to definitely be cheaper than other places.

At $47K I'm getting about $3100 in monthly income.

$850 Housing
$300 Utilities
$350 Food
$175 Car Payment
$100 Car Insurance (Very low)
$320 Gas for cars
$200 Diapers
$100 Phone/cable/internet

So that bare minimum and adds up to about $2400 leaving about $700 in disposable income. But I would have to say your very fortunate to have 2 cars and only a car payment of $175. What happens if the engine blows on both of your cars that are 10+ years old. Now you need two car payments and even more for insurance because now you need full coverage on both cars.

What about life insurance. What happens to you family if something happens to you? We haven't even added a single dime for things like toilet paper, toothpaste, pots, pans, etc. And we haven't spent a single dollar on clothes. Your a lawyer and you don't have to buy any clothes. What about maintaining your home. Cut the grass, fix leaks when the happen etc. We haven't taken any money out to put in your 401K. And all of this before spending one cent on entertainment. Fortunately you have health insurance. And you make that salary mainly by yourself so if you add in you wifes part time salary then you actually make more than that. What if you made $25K and your wire made $22k. That would still be $47 but now neither of you have health insurance and you need to pay an extra $1000 a month for child care. One medical accident and you behind on you mortgage and in foreclosure.

So say you don't want to get an MBA and your pay increases at 3% a year. Fuel is going up, food is going up, education is going up. No money to put your kids through college and no money for retirement. So now you 65 working at walmart and living with you one of your 2 daughters but you social security doesn't cover you health care cost that your children are now burdened by.

At the end of the day your talking about getting by modestly and your a freakin LAWYER. So think how hard it would be for the shift supervisor to do the same thing as you.

That's not necessarily true. Lending conditions have tightened up a lot since the onset of the credit crisis. A poor person with little or no credit history plus insufficient income, no matter how well he has managed his cash assets, will have a much more difficult time to take out a loan now to purchase a house (even with cheaper housing prices). Unless, that poor person is a Veteran, and then he can tap the VA Loan program...

I agree in principle.

But, what about the "poor kids" of the "poor parents"?

Often, the socio-economic environment sets one's destiny before one can even make those choices as a young adult. Yes, it is possible to rise from rags to riches, but I believe these triumphs to be more rare than commonplace.

You are absolutely correct.

"We ALWAYS have choices," but one can also be forced into a particular choice, mostly due to socio-economic factors (read - their upbringing which has shaped their character) or even events that are outside of your control, i.e. war, natural disaster, etc.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone with no formal education, no more family (b/c they have all been killed), with no money, and living in Baghdad.

Sometimes, our destiny makes the choice for us.

Well, I have to say not everyone should be a homeowner. It is perfectly acceptable to rent in the mean time until you can get your credit score in line and save for that down payment. That was part of the problem with such low rates, the politicians wanted everyone to be a homeowner, now we realize that's neither prudent nor possible.


Thankfully in this country there are hundreds of organizations trying to give those kids the nudge they need to get on the right path, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Junior Achievement, the YMCA, Boys Club, etc. It's up to the kids to listen. Unfortunately, many parents just aren't that interested in helping their kids succeed, but thats true throughout human history - it's just one more challenge they have to overcome, but its certainly possible. Thankfully this country is one of the only places in the world were you can grow up dirt poor and become successful. That opportunity isn't even available in probably 85% of countries on this planet. My point is, that while things might not be perfect yet for those kids who grow up underprivileged, they sure are a hell of a lot better than anywhere else and we should be thankful for that.

I agree somewhat jb32 but this is still hit or miss. You really expect a CHILD to understand the world from his Big Brother/Big Sister after they have been taught all the wrong things for the first 10 years of their life. These programs are so small compared the number of people who actually need them.

Just because the opportunity is their doesn't make it readily available. Just because Obama or Clinton can be nominated doesn't mean millions of other people aren't discriminated against by racism or sexism. So what about the millions of children who don't have a Big Brother/Big Sister.

And yes I agree that we have it better here than most other places, but that is besides the point. Thats like saying "It sucks here, the government will cut off your leg if they don't like you. We'll that's nothing because where I come from they'll cut off both your legs if they don't like you." I'd rather only have one leg cut off than two, but that doesn't mean its the ideal place.

It's easy to grow up in a privileged environment where you were taught to choose, taught to make good decisions and then pass judgment on those who weren't and say "I can choose, so can you." But I would bet that If I raised you in the same screwed up environment you would make the same bad choices that most others make. Its like playing a game and teaching a certain group of people the rules but not another and the tell the people who weren't taught the rules how stupid they are for losing. This isn't rocket science. People with less education, supervision, love, family support, etc. make poor choices while people with more of these things usually make better choice. Part of it is you innate natural intelligence and part of it is the result of your environment.

jallenmorris wrote:
"I view the inability to take control of one's life and own up to the fact that we all make choices as weak. It's easier to say I had no choice and this happened to me, or I couldn't control it, but we ALWAYS have choices."

So these people are WEAK. Let me ask you this, is it a coincidence that most people in western cultures are Christian and most people in India follow Hinduism. If you grow up in some small town if India where the population is 80% Hindu, and that is how you are raised did you really make the choice to follow Hinduism? If Christianity is the one true religion does the fact that you "chose" to be Hindu make you weak? Do you think if that same child was adopted by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and raised as a Christian that they would make the same choice to follow Hinduism?

There are weak people. There are weak rich people, there are weak poor people. But you can't by default say that because you are poor you are weak.

Why are you so decidedly negative and bitter about things? Isn't your party the one about hope and change? Or is that your party is the party of fear and that their message only works if everything is fire and brimstone? I guess I am just more of an optimist. Things can and do get better and while they may not be perfect, I'm thankfully every day that I at least have the opportunity to succeed. I think if you stepped back for a moment that you'd see even the poor in this country iare still much better off than they are in every other country in the world. Be thankful you even have choices to make, most people aren't even that lucky.

**Note** Edited because that second to last sentance had some terrible grammar in it

I think my tone is not coming through on this forum. Let me be clear. I come from a single parent household. I have two younger sisters. My mother attended a no name college when she was 34 to help better our lives. I went to inner city public schools. Most of the elders in my family are drug addicts. Most of the family members in my generation having nothing, and the ones who do obtained it through selling drugs. I've never had a father nor do any of my friends. But I had a mother who instilled proper values in me. I served my country for 5 years in the military. I worked full time to put myself through college at night. I volunteer in urban organizations. And through it all I have obtained a job that I'm proud of making more money than anyone in my community. And now I am in the position where I am applying to the top schools in the world. I know that my story is not possible in most countries. America has given me this opportunity and I am 100% grateful. There are plenty other people who have the same opportunity as me. I am in no way trying to spread some message of fire and brimstone. But as I have moved into a position to be financially stable I know how many people I have left behind who didn't have the same opportunity as me. These people are not weak, they just were dealt a bad hand and have to try to make the best of it the best way they know. There are a lot of people like this. There in the northwest side of D.C. and the rural counties of Pennsylvania. There are millions of them. When it's not you sister or your cousin or you aunt or you friend, its easy to go on about you lives and say "those people are poor because they are weak and don't make good decisions" But when you lived just as they did and some outside help comes along by coincidence and turned out to be that pivotal point in your life you see just how unfair life here still is.

I will be the first to tell you that America is the greatest nation in the history of the world. But not all 300 million people get to reap the true benefits of our country. I've served my country proudly and give back to those I can. Why does it threaten anyone when you point out the negative aspects of America? As soon as you show where America has failed some of it citizens the first think people want to do is say "well, were better than other countries." So what! When we had slaves we were still better than other countries. Should we have said "Who cares that we have slaves were better than some third world country" NO, thats what makes America great. We continue to push forward for everyone.

Is is so hard to face the fact that while were one the greatest countries on earth we still have a long way to go? I believe the Romans were the first to create a legislative, executive and judicial branch. At the time they were one of the greatest nations. Look how far we have come from them. But we look back on them and see that while they made some progress they were still very crude. Is it to hard to imagine that a 1000 years from now people will look back on us and see how unjust we really are.

I mostly agree with you. But, you have to admit that the odds are already stacked against these kids. Possible, yes; probable, not so much.

Your perspective sounds awfully US-centric. I'm not sure what experiences you have had outside of the USA, but I have had quite a bit, and I've been living overseas now for over 5 years. As an American and former active duty service-member, I really can't stand it when Americans claim to be so much better than others and/or that the conditions for success are the best in America and worse elsewhere. In my opinion, this is such a closed-minded point of view to maintain. It may very well be true that America offers the best political and economic system than the rest of the world (although I think this is quite subjective), but I would be careful in communicating that point of view to your international colleagues at b-school and in the global workplace.

I will never agree that a person's choices are made for them. YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE.

If a person holds a gun to my head and says they'll kill me if I don't give them my wallet, I still have a choice. One consequence is losing all my money, feeling like a victim and being pissed about it and the helpless feeling that goes with it and the other consequence is dying. The choice may be easy to make, but I STILL HAVE A CHOICE.

Someone that has nothing because they live in Baghdad and their family is all dead still has a choice. Are the choices easy? Maybe not. But you always have a choice.

Gixxer - you added so much crap into my life that I opened up and told everyone about that you are just foolish. "What if both engines blow?" What if the sky falls, Chicken Little? Let it. I'll figure it out. I'd probably walk to work since I only live 3 miles from work. Do I want to do that? Heck no, but would I do it if we only had 1 car and a few days a week it just didn't work out for a ride? Yes. Would I call a friend of mine and say "Hey, i'll pay for the extra gas and some of your time if you'll come pick me up before we both go in to work." ? yes, I might do that too. The point is there are an infinite number of options every person has. I also wonder how well you read what I wrote because I said the mini-van has a brand new engine.

As for gas, I spent about $50 a month in gas for my car. My wife spends about $160 - $200 if we drive it often, which we haven't been.

One reason I think people don't want to accept that they have the power to choose is that it's a lot of power, and with power comes responsibility. If that person makes bad choices (like I have in the past) they must own responsibility for those decisions and many people (regardless of income) do not want to take responsibility for their decisions, or that they could have avoided the predicament that they're in. If my car engine blows up in my 42 year old mustang, I made the decision to drive a car that had an unknown number of miles on it, unknown engine condition etc. If I was so concerned with the engine blowing up (hypothetical situation here analyzing the situation as if it did blow up), I could have made a better decision to drive a newer car for the same amount of money that would be less likely to have the engine go bad (I'll avoid the debate about the quality of engineering in the 1960's vs. today).

Again, I have the choice on what car I buy, and I have to deal with the consequences of my choice to drive a car. I have to deal with the fact that I won't put either of my kids in my car with me, so it makes it more difficult when we can only transport the kids in the van.

LIFE is filled with choices and you have to own up to those choices. This has nothing to do with political views or socioeconomic status. A person with nothing has the choice to ask for help.

I don't think there is anything else I can say. Either you see my point or you don't. You either agree or you don't. Either way, it's your choice whether you agree or not.