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28 Aug 2008, 10:04
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trader1
I know it does, it's called American Exceptionalism and its the difference between America and all of the other countries in the world. Americans (and this ties in well with JAllen) believe that they are a people who chose. When famine, oppression, warfare, religious persecution, tyranny, or stagnation threatened their former countries, unlike those who remained behind, Americans chose to not be the passive victims of history, they chose to get on a boat or a plane, they chose to seek a new life in a new land. Whether that is exceptional, in terms of difference, or exceptional, in other ways, is a matter for history and the reader to determine. However, it makes America different. America, unlike any other great empire in history, was created for the benefit of all people everywhere. The Roman, British, Nazi, Greek, and Persian Empires were all composed of one race or citizenship. America is different, it was formed as a melting pot of thousands of different cultures. America was built on the ideals of freedom and liberty regardless of culture, citizenship or ethnicity. No other country, before or since can claim they have done this and it does indeed make America different.
trader1
While I wouldn't go up to the nearest German, French, or Indian citizen in their country and brag about the greatness of America, as far as I'm concerned America IS the greatest country in the world to live in. I've traveled all to Asia, Europe, and Africa and I would never trade places with someone in one of those countries. Call it arrogance, confidence, or whatever, but I think if you truly love your country then you love everything about it, flaws included, and you would defend it against anyone that says otherwise. If someone would like to argue that their country gives the average person more opportunities than America, I would be happy to listen.
trader1
The fact he's sitting next to me in class makes my point for me. If the US wasn't the best place to go for Bschool, he certainly wouldn't be here.
jallenmorris
All valid points.
But, my point is that choice can often be a function of one's upbringing and/or current environment over which he/she had NO CHOICE. Child development between the ages of 2 and 6 has the most definitive impact on that person's adult behavior, character, skills/abilities, and interaction with society. And, who/what is responsible for a child's development? Parents, brothers/sisters (if any), and other members of the community. If a child is raised in an "unideal" environment, then the effects of that upbringing will create the foundation for how that person makes his/her choices throughout life. This is why I believe in a destiny concept. What about people with severe cases of Down's Syndrome? You can't possibly argue that these people have the same ability to choose as those without this mental handicap.
Certainly, we have the ability to choose and make our destiny, but at the same time, our destiny has already chosen us.
PS.
You forgot to mention a 3rd consequence in your "gun to the head" example: you choose to give up your wallet, but the guy still pulls the trigger and kills you anyway. Sometimes, you are at the mercy of external factors even when you exert your own free will.
28 Aug 2008, 11:21
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jallenmoris, I think you're missing my point. You seem to be a pretty grounded guy. Obviously you have made your situation work for you. You've cut out a lot of nonsense and your focus is on your family, where it should be. But my example was more to show that you:
Come from a well grounded family. Your mother is college educated. Your father works a respectable job with a respectable salary. It seem that you were brought up and taught to make good decisions about not only you but your family as well. You put yourself through college and was able to become a lawyer. Being a lawyer is a respectable profession. You are essentially the epitome of the middle class family (just need a dog). And is spite all of this, after dissecting briefly through you finances you are not on track to be sustainable when you retire or even pay for you kids college. Now granted you have a lot of upward mobility in you profession. But what about those who don't.
We are talking about the median household income in American and yours just happens to be close. There are 111 million households in America. So imaging the 50 million households that make less than the median. Imagine the millions of households who are ran not by lawyers from good families but by waitresses, shift supervisors, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc. The households where the husband makes $25K and the wife makes $24K and they get their cousin to watch their kids, and they don't have health care because their first job wants to save on cost so they work 32 hours their and 20 hours at a second job. So both parents are always working and the kids grow up watching rap videos home alone. They want to go to school but they can't afford it and don't have the time. Yeah, they made some bad decisions but they didn't really know at the time because no one taught them the difference. There are millions of households like this. Just like there are millions of households like yours.
50 years ago you could get a factory job and maintain a decent middle class life. Where are these jobs at now? Only 25% of the population has a bachelors degree. What about the other 75%? That's part of what made America great. You get up, get a job and work hard and you'll be OK (unless you were black). The world has changed, manual labor won't get you by anymore. You need skills. The problem is that a lot of people don't know it's changed. My elders told us when we turned 18 we needed to go out into the world get a job and become a man. They were proud that we finished high school. That is our big achievement. We weren't trying to get into college. Were not going to be lawyer, doctors, etc. Look around nobody we know are lawyers and doctors. If were lucky, one day maybe we'll be a manager at Walmart, like uncle Billy. He actually owns a house. Why do you think the military is filled with so many lower-middle class people. Because we don't think we have other options. You don't see many fortunate people joining the military (much respect to Tillman).
So it wasn't until I was removed from my environment until I realize how incredibly stupid my world view was. I was holding myself back. I was making all the wrong "choices" I guess as you guys see it. But when you're in that situation you don't see them as choices. If you tell me to go into a building and there are two doors then I can choose which door I want to go through. But if I look at the two doors and one of the doors looks different and I don't know that its a door so I only see one door, then do I really have a choice? So I walk through the only door I see which is the wrong door and when I do you say the other door would have provided me more opportunity and that I'm weak for making the wrong choice.
There is an abundance of opportunity here in America and as others have stated around the world. I am not denying this FACT. I'm simply stating that everyone doesn't have equal access to this opportunity and to some they are pretty much closed off from it altogether. Do we need to riot in the streets? Of course not. But let's realize that the fact that you are on this forum right now means that you have a blessed life and there are millions who do not. So let's all get MBA's and go out and get this money and provide for our families and spend a bunch of money of crap we don't need and enjoy life. But let's not get arrogant and think that were somehow inherently smarter than those who didn't succeed. Given the right environmental circumstances you could easily be the poor person.
Come from a well grounded family. Your mother is college educated. Your father works a respectable job with a respectable salary. It seem that you were brought up and taught to make good decisions about not only you but your family as well. You put yourself through college and was able to become a lawyer. Being a lawyer is a respectable profession. You are essentially the epitome of the middle class family (just need a dog). And is spite all of this, after dissecting briefly through you finances you are not on track to be sustainable when you retire or even pay for you kids college. Now granted you have a lot of upward mobility in you profession. But what about those who don't.
We are talking about the median household income in American and yours just happens to be close. There are 111 million households in America. So imaging the 50 million households that make less than the median. Imagine the millions of households who are ran not by lawyers from good families but by waitresses, shift supervisors, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc. The households where the husband makes $25K and the wife makes $24K and they get their cousin to watch their kids, and they don't have health care because their first job wants to save on cost so they work 32 hours their and 20 hours at a second job. So both parents are always working and the kids grow up watching rap videos home alone. They want to go to school but they can't afford it and don't have the time. Yeah, they made some bad decisions but they didn't really know at the time because no one taught them the difference. There are millions of households like this. Just like there are millions of households like yours.
50 years ago you could get a factory job and maintain a decent middle class life. Where are these jobs at now? Only 25% of the population has a bachelors degree. What about the other 75%? That's part of what made America great. You get up, get a job and work hard and you'll be OK (unless you were black). The world has changed, manual labor won't get you by anymore. You need skills. The problem is that a lot of people don't know it's changed. My elders told us when we turned 18 we needed to go out into the world get a job and become a man. They were proud that we finished high school. That is our big achievement. We weren't trying to get into college. Were not going to be lawyer, doctors, etc. Look around nobody we know are lawyers and doctors. If were lucky, one day maybe we'll be a manager at Walmart, like uncle Billy. He actually owns a house. Why do you think the military is filled with so many lower-middle class people. Because we don't think we have other options. You don't see many fortunate people joining the military (much respect to Tillman).
So it wasn't until I was removed from my environment until I realize how incredibly stupid my world view was. I was holding myself back. I was making all the wrong "choices" I guess as you guys see it. But when you're in that situation you don't see them as choices. If you tell me to go into a building and there are two doors then I can choose which door I want to go through. But if I look at the two doors and one of the doors looks different and I don't know that its a door so I only see one door, then do I really have a choice? So I walk through the only door I see which is the wrong door and when I do you say the other door would have provided me more opportunity and that I'm weak for making the wrong choice.
There is an abundance of opportunity here in America and as others have stated around the world. I am not denying this FACT. I'm simply stating that everyone doesn't have equal access to this opportunity and to some they are pretty much closed off from it altogether. Do we need to riot in the streets? Of course not. But let's realize that the fact that you are on this forum right now means that you have a blessed life and there are millions who do not. So let's all get MBA's and go out and get this money and provide for our families and spend a bunch of money of crap we don't need and enjoy life. But let's not get arrogant and think that were somehow inherently smarter than those who didn't succeed. Given the right environmental circumstances you could easily be the poor person.
