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When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
Dear GMATGuruNY MartyTargetTestPrep IanStewart VeritasPrepHailey AjiteshArun DmitryFarber GMATNinja GMATRockstar,

Why is PAST PERFECT in choice C. wrong?

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it.

Is there a rule that when WHEN is used, PAST PERFECT cannot be used?

IMHO, the call should logically be included in the draft BEFORE the draft was adopted.

Why is this thinking wrong?
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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varotkorn wrote:
Why is PAST PERFECT in choice C. wrong?

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it.

Is there a rule that when WHEN is used, PAST PERFECT cannot be used?

IMHO, the call should logically be included in the draft BEFORE the draft was adopted.

Why is this thinking wrong?


C uses a passive construction that makes it worse than the right answer, independent of verb tense. But compare these two sentences:

When Stanton drafted the Declaration, she worked as a trial lawyer.
When Stanton drafted the Declaration, she had worked as a trial lawyer.

They're both grammatically correct, but they don't mean the same thing. If you can see why they have a different meaning, you'll see why past perfect is the wrong choice for the sentence discussed in this thread.
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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varotkorn wrote:
Why is PAST PERFECT in choice C. wrong?

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it.

Is there a rule that when WHEN is used, PAST PERFECT cannot be used?

There is no such rule.

Consider the following example:

    When we arrived, the bride and groom had already said their vows.

Makes complete sense.

Quote:
IMHO, the call should logically be included in the draft BEFORE the draft was adopted.

Why is this thinking wrong?

The problem is that including something is not always discrete action, and, in this case "included" seems to refer to something ongoing.

Consider the following:

    The troupe of actors included five men and five women.

In that sentence, "included" conveys that something was going on continuously.

Now here's another version:

    The troupe of actors had included five men and five women.

In that sentence, "had included" conveys that something had been going on continuously but ceased to occur. The troupe no longer included five men and five women.

Similarly, choice (E) conveys that when the Declaration was adopted, a call for female enfranchisement had been included but was no longer included in it, a somewhat illogical meaning.

Perhaps the biggest takeaway here is to look for issues in logic rather than merely wonder what "the rule" is.
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
I’m not sure why, but this question seems to punk my students fairly often. So if you struggled with it, you’re not alone!

Quote:
(A) When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Conventions in 1848, included in it by the author, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, was a call for female enfranchisement.

This is a little bit tricky to spot, but “drafting” is an “-ing” modifier, and it needs to make sense with the subject that follows. But we never really get a subject that makes sense: the main clause is just “included in it by the author… was a call for female enfranchisement.” Elizabeth Cady Stanton is basically just a modifier here, but the sentence would only work if she’s the subject. (A) is out.
.
.
....


Just to clear it out, does the Subject has to be a Proper Noun or a Noun Phrase and not a pronoun?
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When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
Similarly, choice (E) conveys that when the Declaration was adopted, a call for female enfranchisement had been included but was no longer included in it, a somewhat illogical meaning.

Dear MartyTargetTestPrep GMATGuruNY DmitryFarber,

If, on the other hand, choice C. were:

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, SHE had included a call for female enfranchisement in it.

Then, the above would be correct, right?
Elizabeth HAD ACTIVELY INCLUDED a call BEFORE the draft was adopted.
By the time the draft was adopted, she had finished drafting and hence no longer wrote / edited / or included any thing in the draft.

Is my understanding correct?
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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D4kshGargas wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
I’m not sure why, but this question seems to punk my students fairly often. So if you struggled with it, you’re not alone!

Quote:
(A) When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Conventions in 1848, included in it by the author, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, was a call for female enfranchisement.

This is a little bit tricky to spot, but “drafting” is an “-ing” modifier, and it needs to make sense with the subject that follows. But we never really get a subject that makes sense: the main clause is just “included in it by the author… was a call for female enfranchisement.” Elizabeth Cady Stanton is basically just a modifier here, but the sentence would only work if she’s the subject. (A) is out.
.
.
....


Just to clear it out, does the Subject has to be a Proper Noun or a Noun Phrase and not a pronoun?

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but...

No, the subject does not have to be a proper noun or noun phrase. In fact, the correct answer choice (E) has a pronoun ("she") as the subject.

varotkorn wrote:
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
Similarly, choice (E) conveys that when the Declaration was adopted, a call for female enfranchisement had been included but was no longer included in it, a somewhat illogical meaning.

Dear MartyTargetTestPrep GMATGuruNY DmitryFarber,

If, on the other hand, choice C. were:

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, SHE had included a call for female enfranchisement in it.

Then, the above would be correct, right?
Elizabeth HAD ACTIVELY INCLUDED a call BEFORE the draft was adopted.
By the time the draft was adopted, she had finished drafting and hence no longer wrote / edited / or included any thing in the draft.

Is my understanding correct?

Your example starts with, "When the Declaration of Sentiments was adopted..."

  • We expect the ensuing action to be something that occurred at the same time that the Declaration was adopted.
  • Instead, we get a past perfect verb ("had included"), indicating an action that occurred BEFORE the Declaration was adopted.
  • So the opening modifier ("When...") and the main verb ("had included") don't really jive in this particular case.

Choice (E) avoids that problem. The sentence starts with, "When Stanton drafted the Declaration of Sentiments..."

  • We expect the ensuing action to be something that occurred at the same time that Stanton drafted the Declaration.
  • And that's exactly what we get: when drafting the Declaration, Stanton INCLUDED in it a call for female enfranchisement.

In (E) the opening modifier ("When...") and the main verb ("included") make sense together.
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
IanStewart wrote:
varotkorn wrote:
Why is PAST PERFECT in choice C. wrong?

When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it.

Is there a rule that when WHEN is used, PAST PERFECT cannot be used?

IMHO, the call should logically be included in the draft BEFORE the draft was adopted.

Why is this thinking wrong?


C uses a passive construction that makes it worse than the right answer, independent of verb tense. But compare these two sentences:

When Stanton drafted the Declaration, she worked as a trial lawyer.
When Stanton drafted the Declaration, she had worked as a trial lawyer.

They're both grammatically correct, but they don't mean the same thing. If you can see why they have a different meaning, you'll see why past perfect is the wrong choice for the sentence discussed in this thread.


IanStewart Can I say that #1 conveys that She drafted the declaration at a time when she was a trial lawyer WHILE #2 says she was a trial lawyer and later on (when she was not one) she drafted the Declaration?

So "when" CAN be used along with two different sentence. What decides the usage of "when" is the meaning the sentence plans to convey
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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Hoozan wrote:
IanStewart Can I say that #1 conveys that She drafted the declaration at a time when she was a trial lawyer WHILE #2 says she was a trial lawyer and later on (when she was not one) she drafted the Declaration?

So "when" CAN be used along with two different sentence. What decides the usage of "when" is the meaning the sentence plans to convey


Yes, that's exactly right. By the past verb tense we use, we can say that one event was completed before another, or that one event happened at the same time as another. And in GMAT SC, often meaning will be the only criterion you can use to choose the verb tense that is best, since often more than one tense will be correct if you only think about grammar.

Posted from my mobile device
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
Is it true that the word ???when??? suggests that two actions happened at the same time and hence whenever "when" is used the tenses have to be the same (all the time)?
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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Hoozan wrote:
Is it true that the word ???when??? suggests that two actions happened at the same time and hence whenever "when" is used the tenses have to be the same (all the time)?


Hello Hoozan,

We hope this finds you well.

Having gone through the question and your query, we believe we can resolve your doubt.

Yes: "when" is always used to refer to a point in time, so if a "when" phrase modifies an action the action expressed in the phrase and the action modified by the phrase typically have a sense of concurrence.

However, these actions need not be in the exact same tense; it depends on the meaning conveyed. For example, "When you got home, I was cooking dinner.": here "got home" is in the simple past tense, but "was cooking" is in the simple past continuous tense because the latter is an action that was ongoing and the former is not.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
Bunuel, this one is asked in Official Mock. Please tag it.
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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AnkurGMAT20 wrote:
Bunuel, this one is asked in Official Mock. Please tag it.


____________________________
Added the tag. Thank you!
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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Dear Friends,

Here is a detailed explanation to this question-
huoguo wrote:
When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Conventions in 1848, included in it by the author, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, was a call for female enfranchisement.


(A) When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Conventions in 1848, included in it by the author, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, was a call for female enfranchisement.

(B) Including a call for female enfranchisement, a draft of the Declaration of Sentiments was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848 that Elizabeth Cady Stanton wrote.

(C) When the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it .

(D) A call for female enfranchisement, included in Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s draft of the Declaration of Sentiments in 1848, that was adopted by the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention.

(E) When Elizabeth Cady Stanton drafted the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, she included in it a call for female enfranchisement.

Source : GMATPREP Default Exam Pack


Meaning is crucial to solving this problem:
Understanding the intended meaning is key to solving this question; the intended meaning of this sentence is that while drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, Elizabeth Cady Stanton included a call for female enfranchisement.

Concepts tested here: Meaning + Modifiers + Grammatical Construction

A:
1/ This answer choice alters the meaning of the sentence by using "When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments...1848" to modify the clause "included in it by the author...was a call for female enfranchisement", producing an incoherent meaning; the intended meaning is that while drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, Elizabeth Cady Stanton included a call for female enfranchisement.

B:
1/ This answer choice incorrectly modifies the noun "the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848" with the phrase "that Elizabeth Cady Stanton wrote", illogically implying that Elizabeth Cady Stanton wrote the convention; the intended meaning is that Elizabeth Cady Stanton drafted the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the convention.

C:
1/ This answer choice alters the meaning of the sentence through the phrase "a call for female enfranchisement had been included in it"; the construction of this phrase incorrectly implies that by the time the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, an unspecified entity had included a call for female enfranchisement in the draft; the intended meaning is that while she was drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, herself, included a call for female enfranchisement.

D:
1/ This answer choice fails to form a complete sentence; as "included" is a past participle acting as a modifier and "was adopted" is part of a modifying phrase, there is no active verb to act upon the subject noun phrase "A call for female enfranchisement".

E: Correct.
1/ This answer choice acts upon the independent subject "she (Elizabeth Cady Stanton)" with the active verb "included" to form a complete thought, producing a complete sentence.
2/ Option E correctly modifies "the Declaration of Sentiments" with the phrase "that was adopted", conveying the intended meaning - that Elizabeth Cady Stanton drafted the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the convention.
3/ Option E uses the phrase "When Elizabeth Cady Stanton drafted...in 1848" to modify the clause "she included in it a call for female enfranchisement"; the construction of this phrase and this clause convey the intended meaning - that while she was drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention in 1848, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, herself, included a call for female enfranchisement.

Hence, E is the best answer choice.

All the best!
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Re: When drafting the Declaration of Sentiments that was adopted at the Se [#permalink]
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