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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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imSKR wrote:
Quote:
A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discourage poachers; the question is whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are trimmed.



Quote:
(A) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are

horns are specific to rhinoceroses
Tourists may still go to park ( not just necessarily go to park to see rhinoceroses)so visit and see should be ok, right?

Quote:
(C) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see rhinoceroses once the animals’ horns have been

horns are specific to animals( that is not as clear as in option A). here animals may not necessarily be rhinoceroses.

please help me to get rid of above thought.

The version created via the use of (A) does not make sense. It misses the connection between the trimming of the horns and the tourists' visiting game parks.

If, as you suggested, the tourists are going to the parks "and" just happening to see the rhinoceroses, then whether the rhinoceroses have horns should not matter.

In order for the presence of the horns to matter, the tourists have to be going "to" see the rhinoceroses.

So, the version created via the use of (A) says that there is a question but then provides no reason for there to be a question, because it does not express that seeing the rhinoceroses is the purpose of going to the parks.

The version created via the use of (C), on the other hand, uses "to" and, thus, makes clear why there is a "question" about whether tourists will visit the parks, because they visit to the parks "to" see the rhinoceroses, but may not do so if the rhinoceroses' horns have been trimmed.

(C) uses "the animals'" to confuse you. It's fairly clear that the sentence would not jump to talking about another set of animals, and that "the animals'" refers to "rhinoceroses," and thus, (C) effectively conveys a logical meaning.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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SDW2 wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
...You could also argue that the pronoun “their” is potentially ambiguous. It could refer to the rhinos or the tourists or the poachers, and only the rhinos would make sense, since tourists and poachers rarely trim their own horns. And again, pronoun ambiguity isn’t an absolute rule (more on that in this video), but we’ll have better options in a moment....

Hello GMATNinja
Thanks for the detailed explanation. However, I have a query regarding pronoun ambiguity. You mentioned in option A that "their" could refer to rhinos or tourists or poachers and eventually eliminated tourists and poachers saying that only rhinos make sense since rhinos have horns.
So, I wanted to know when do we say that there's pronoun ambiguity? Is it when there are more than 1 contenders (nouns) for a pronoun and all or some of them make sense
OR
Can we say that there's pronoun ambiguity even if there are multiple nouns but only 1 of them is contender because only this 1 contender makes sense (like in this option A)?

Unfortunately it's impossible to draw a clear line between acceptable pronoun ambiguity and unacceptable pronoun ambiguity. And I certainly wasn't trying to say that it's okay to have multiple potential referents IF AND ONLY IF exactly one of them makes sense. As long as you have multiple potential referents, you can technically argue that there is SOME ambiguity.

Now if all but one of those referents is completely illogical, that certainly makes the ambiguity LESS of an issue. But again, it's impossible to draw a clear line in the sand.

The takeaway is that pronoun ambiguity is not a bulletproof reason for eliminating an answer choice. But if you are comparing two choices (i.e. choice (A) and choice (C) in this question) and only one of those two has an ambiguous pronoun, then you might have a vote in favor of the choice that avoids that ambiguity.

More broadly, you always want to consider clarity of meaning. If pronoun ambiguity makes the meaning unclear in one choice but not in another, you likely have a vote against the first one.

Sorry for the somewhat ambiguous (haha?) response... but unfortunately there are no black and white rules for this sort of thing. I know: it's maddening, but that's the GMAT for you. :?

And if you want a maddening full video on GMAT pronouns, here it is.

I hope that helps a bit!
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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aarkay87 wrote:
Therefore "Incompatibility of the case between pronoun and noun is not an absolute rule" on GMAT.

Yes, not an absolute rule. Another officially correct sentence:

Although Elizabeth Barrett Browning's success was later overshadowed by that of her husband, among her contemporaries she was considered the better poet.

Notice that in this sentence, subject pronoun she is referring to the possessive Elizabeth Barrett Browning's.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discourage poachers; the question is whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are trimmed.

A) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are
B) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see one once their horns are
C) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see rhinoceroses once the animals' horns have been
D) if tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses once the animals' horns are
E) if tourists will continue to visit game parks to see one after the animals' horns have been

OA C

All:
I know that D and E can be rejected because of usage of "if"

Among A, B and C, B and A are rejected for lack of antecedents. I am not looking for the correct answer. I want to understand why "horns have been" is a correct usage. In other words, via is present perfect better than present tense ("are trimmed")


Any help is appreciated.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discourage poachers; the question is whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are trimmed.


I know I will get it right most of the times, since their to me seems awkward, but if I go by what I learnt in e-gmat lectures, ambiguity of pronouns can be checked by indentifying the intended meaning. So whats the exception here? their horns so their can refer only to horns.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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You're right about the horns part. However, the ambiguity here is not whether the reference is to horns but whose horns. Are the tourists or the rhinoceroses having horns removed?

It seems obvious given what we know about tourists and rhinos generally, but it's not clear from the structure of the sentence.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
diehard4 wrote:
21. A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discourage poachers; the question is whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are trimmed.
(A) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are
(B) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see one once their horns are
(C) whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see rhinoceroses once the animals’ horns have been
(D) if tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses once the animals’ horns are
(E) if tourists will continue to visit game parks to see one after the animals’ horns have been




As per OG The verb following after should
be the present-perfect have been trimmed to reflect
that the trimming must occur before the tourists
arrive.


But already the time maker after is there, so why is it necessary to use present perfect tense here

Also what is the basic difference in using whether and if? When to use if and when to use whether?
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
I'm trying to understand significance and correctness of use of "one" in phrase "to see one after the animals' horns have been trimmed" in choice E. Sure the choice E don't sound as precise as option C. But what does "one" imply? It seems choice E says that tourists will continue to visit parks to see a rhinoceros (one of the many rhinoceroses) once the animals horns are trimmed. The phrase is generally used in spoken english. Is it correct?
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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dipsy001 wrote:
I'm trying to understand significance and correctness of use of "one" in phrase "to see one after the animals' horns have been trimmed" in choice E. Sure the choice E don't sound as precise as option C. But what does "one" imply? It seems choice E says that tourists will continue to visit parks to see a rhinoceros (one of the many rhinoceroses) once the animals horns are trimmed. The phrase is generally used in spoken english. Is it correct?


Dear @dipsy001,

Thank you for posting this question. I believe you can arrive at the answer on your own. Just pay close attention to the original sentence.

A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discourage poachers; the question is whether tourists will continue to visit game parks and see rhinoceroses after their horns are trimmed.

Is the original sentence saying that the tourists will see 1 rhino or many rhinos in general?

Now look at your understanding of choice E (which by the way is correct!!). Do you think the two match?

Thus without getting into the grammatical nuances, you can eliminate choice E on the account of meaning shift from the original sentence :)

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Payal
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
Is this grammatically correct ?

See those two girls. Helen is the one on the left.
here one should refer to girl.
but girl is not mentioned anywhere in the sentence.But girls is mentioned.

ravi's car broke down,so he walked back to the hotel.

here he has no referent.As ravi's car is mentioned but ravi is not mentioned.

please help.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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SidKaria wrote:
Is this grammatically correct ?

See those two girls. Helen is the one on the left.
here one should refer to girl.
but girl is not mentioned anywhere in the sentence.But girls is mentioned.

ravi's car broke down,so he walked back to the hotel.

here he has no referent.As ravi's car is mentioned but ravi is not mentioned.

please help.


Hi Sid,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

Although the example that you have provided is way too colloquial for GMAT, your understanding of the usage of pronoun in this one is correct. When used as a pronoun, "one" like any other pronoun must have a clear antecedent and must also agree in number with its antecedent. Hence, example one does not stand.

Your analysis of the second example is also correct. "he" must refer to "Ravi". But there is no mention of "Ravi" in the sentence. "Ravi's" acts as an adjective and hence pronoun "he" cannot refer to that entity.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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SidKaria wrote:
ravi's car broke down,so he walked back to the hotel.

here he has no referent.As ravi's car is mentioned but ravi is not mentioned.

On a separate note, it is interesting to note that there are at least a couple of examples in OG, where the pronoun in question does not have any direct referent, but still GMAT considers it acceptable. So, GMAT seems to be permissive in this regard.

#109, OG-13:

Among the objects found in the excavated temple were small terra-cotta effigies left by supplicants who were either asking the goddess Bona Dea's aid in healing physical and mental ills or thanking her for such help.

This is the correct answer, though there is no explicit referent of her. The silver lining is that all 5 answer choices use her, so you don't really have to choose an option based on this.
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
Can someone please explain, how come "their" is ambiguous in option B ?
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
Hi experts,

in this case, I totally got that perfect past "have been trimmed" reveals the earlier action than visit.
out of curiosity, Is the present tense "are" , which is earlier than future tense " will visit" , valid in A if focus on only tense ?( please point out which one is better , only tense or tense only :) )

I have another correct present - future sentence from MANHATTAN SC guide P129.
The scientist BELIEVES that the machine WILL BE wonderful.
here, BELIEVES is present tense, and WILL BE is future tense.

genuinely want your confirmation.

have a nice day
>_~
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
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zoezhuyan wrote:
Hi experts,

in this case, I totally got that perfect past "have been trimmed" reveals the earlier action than visit.
out of curiosity, Is the present tense "are" , which is earlier than future tense " will visit" , valid in A if focus on only tense ?( please point out which one is better , only tense or tense only :) )

I have another correct present - future sentence from MANHATTAN SC guide P129.
The scientist BELIEVES that the machine WILL BE wonderful.
here, BELIEVES is present tense, and WILL BE is future tense.

genuinely want your confirmation.

have a nice day
>_~

Dear zoezhuyan,

How are you my friend? This is a perceptive question, and I am happy to answer! :-)

Let's ignore (A), which is wrong, and just focus on changing (C), the OA.
original (C): whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see rhinoceroses once the animals' horns have been trimmed.
modified (C): whether tourists will continue to visit game parks to see rhinoceroses once the animals' horns are trimmed.
Both of these are 100% correct. It might be argued that the first is a little more elegant, a little more nuanced, but that's a stylistic concern. In terms of what would be correct on the GMAT SC, both of these are absolutely flawless.

Either the simple present tense or the present perfect tense or the present progressive tense can be used to indicate an event before the time of any future tense event.

Does all this make sense?

Have a lovely weekend! :-)

Mike :-)
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
+1 for option C. This question tests you on the use of "if vs whether" and tenses. Choose whether and use present perfect form ! Option C is the winner :)
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Re: A proposal has been made to trim the horns from rhinoceroses to discou [#permalink]
spetznaz wrote:
+1 for option C. This question tests you on the use of "if vs whether" and tenses. Choose whether and use present perfect form ! Option C is the winner :)


How do you know present perfect is needed here?
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