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Another Cheating Scandal

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 14:12
kevincan wrote:
Which scores do you think they will/should revoke?
Those who posted live questions after their exams?


kevincan wrote:
Those who attributed VIP membership/MJJ for their success?

Should

kevincan wrote:
Those who requested that live questions be posted?

Shouldn't

kevincan wrote:
Those who bought VIP membership?

Should

kevincan wrote:
Those who registered in scoretop?

Not enough.

However, I'm sure nothing will happen.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 14:23
Those who posted live questions after their exams? should have scores revoked, barred from future exams.
Those who attributed VIP membership/MJJ for their success? Revoke.
Those who requested that live questions be posted? maybe.
Those who bought VIP membership? maybe, but offer an opportunity to retake the exam.
Those who registered in scoretop? no
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 14:26
rhyme wrote:
I've been in touch with GMAC to request their score revocation timeline. Sadly, they've replied that they don't yet have one in place. I want them to start tomorrow.


Either they are diligently working on this, or this whole media campaign is just a bunch of hot air.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 14:46
http://www.mba.com/mba/TaketheGMAT/Regi ... lities.htm
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 14:53
People who post questions should have their scores revoked and should be barred from retaking for a couple of years at least.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 15:28
Some people on BW seem to think that there is nothing in the rules about reading materials just posting them. I quote from page 8 of the information bulletin...that we all agree to when we take the test just because people dont read it doesnt mean they dont have to comply.

"In addition, when preparing to take the GMaT® exam, it is unethical, improper, and potentially illegal for prospective test takers to access, discuss, or otherwise use any GMaT® questions or answers that have not been released to the general public. if you enroll or participate in any test-preparation coursework that distributes, provides access to, or uses such GMaT® questions or answers, or provides a forum for others to share such information, your scores on the GMaT® exam may be canceled, and GMaC® may pursue other remedies. "

http://www.mba.com/NR/rdonlyres/18971069-E442-442D-9A62-B9DC00E64825/0/Bulletin_2008_WEB_PVR061108.pdf

Reading this it pretty much means anyone with a VIP membership could have their GMAT scores canceled because scoretop provided a forum for people to share this information.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 15:39
Thanks river that's what I was trying to find.

Something is telling me that GMAC will revoke some scores to make it as an example, if they don't do so, people will keep on cheating.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:00
i sure hope they revoke some scores... pretty much agree with what rhyme and kidderek voted.

I can't believe how unethical some people are on BW forums... :(
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:08
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:11
Great find River! It looks like the 2007 bulletin seems to have slightly different wording (pg 23) but the same intent

"Removing or attempting to remove test
content from the test center is strictly prohibited.
Under no circumstances may any part of
the test content viewed during a test administration
be removed, reproduced, and/or disclosed
in any form by any means (for
example, verbally, in writing, or electronically)
to any person or entity at any time. This
includes, but is not limited to, discussing or
disclosing such test content via e-mail; in any
Internet “chat room,” message board, or
other forum; or otherwise. This disclosure prohibition
applies before, during, and after any
administration of the GMAT® exam."

http://riyadh.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/g ... n-2007.pdf


I d
riverripper wrote:
Some people on BW seem to think that there is nothing in the rules about reading materials just posting them. I quote from page 8 of the information bulletin...that we all agree to when we take the test just because people dont read it doesnt mean they dont have to comply.

"In addition, when preparing to take the GMaT® exam, it is unethical, improper, and potentially illegal for prospective test takers to access, discuss, or otherwise use any GMaT® questions or answers that have not been released to the general public. if you enroll or participate in any test-preparation coursework that distributes, provides access to, or uses such GMaT® questions or answers, or provides a forum for others to share such information, your scores on the GMaT® exam may be canceled, and GMaC® may pursue other remedies. "

http://www.mba.com/NR/rdonlyres/18971069-E442-442D-9A62-B9DC00E64825/0/Bulletin_2008_WEB_PVR061108.pdf

Reading this it pretty much means anyone with a VIP membership could have their GMAT scores canceled because scoretop provided a forum for people to share this information.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:11
toga, not everyone who cheated is dumb. Just by reading few blog posts, its pretty apparent that there were a good number of cheaters who are articulate, intelligent and also dis-honest. These folks cheated because they wanted to use every possible method to gain an advantage, not because they arent capable.

togafoot wrote:
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:18
ncprasad wrote:
toga, not everyone who cheated is dumb. Just by reading few blog posts, its pretty apparent that there were a good number of cheaters who are articulate, intelligent and also dis-honest. These folks cheated because they wanted to use every possible method to gain an advantage, not because they arent capable.

togafoot wrote:
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.


I doubt anyone who got high scores was dumb. cheating or not. However some of them wouldn`t have got into top schools without cheating. The point still stands, the GMAT can still be called into question as an effective tool for judging b-school acceptance. If we put this into a broader context :-
1) It appears easy to cheat due to the current system
2) The score itself has not been testing true b-school applicant capability because cheaters have not been found out as sub-standard during their studies. Therefore questioning the validity of the GMAT as an entrance requirement.

i.e If its not possible to tell who has cheated at the GMAT post matriculation and graduation, how is it possible to verify the GMAT as a valid test of b-school capability.
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New post Updated on: 26 Jun 2008, 16:36
Somehow I can draw the analogy of athletes using steroids here. Except, unlike GMAC, the Athletic body will bust you, name you, shame you and bar you. The real sophisticated cheat would move on to some other method that would provide him an advantage and be undetectable to the governing body. All these examples of people who can't speak a word of english are not the sort that will ever gain much out of cheating anyway, its the other smart ones, who would normally hit 680 and now move up to 750 that would hurt genuine blokes with 720s (twice now arrgghh).

Anyway, GMAC, like all monopolies is stupidly complacent and, because it is a monopoly, it could choose to do nothing and get away with it. For example, an AWA is scored by a computer. Result ? People dont care about the substance of their essays, but focus on structure and on ways to fool the computer; Veritas templates come to mind and its perfectly legal to use these templates. So those who can't write, will use templates and score high. Result, a 6 on AWA is not even 90th percentile.

Same thing is happening with jjs and actual GMAT percentiles. Scoretop will get banned, something else will come up. The only thing GMAT can do to make it fair for all is to limit GMAT to once or twice a year - similar to the LSAT and the MCAT. Is it going to happen ? Buckley's chance, why shut down this cash cow ? Reality is a b*tch :(

Originally posted by bsd_lover on 26 Jun 2008, 16:27.
Last edited by bsd_lover on 26 Jun 2008, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:34
I have a feeling that GMAC wll pursue this. We dont know whats happening behind the scenes. We didnt know anything until the BW story broke, did we? So, there is really no reason to assume that GMAC will do (or) is doing nothing to expose the cheaters to the school.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:35
bsd_lover wrote:
Same thing is happening with jjs and actual GMAT percentiles. Scoretop will get banned, something else will come up. The only thing GMAT can do to make it fair for all is to limit GMAT to once or twice a year - similar to the LSAT and the MCAT. Is it going to happen ? Buckley's chance, why shut down this cash cow ? Reality is a b*tch :(


Unless the b-schools do something about it. If they can`t trust the validity of GMAT, then GMAC have to do something about it. the reputations of all b-schools could be tainted.... whether the schools will do anything is dependent on employers attitudes towards the scandal. However, companies generally don`t care as long as they believe they are getting someone who can perform well.. imo. Ethics aside, of course.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:38
But then "GMAT is only one part of the entire application process, our applications are viewed holistically" *sneers* (I shouldn't have taken two cranky pills today)

togafoot wrote:
bsd_lover wrote:
Same thing is happening with jjs and actual GMAT percentiles. Scoretop will get banned, something else will come up. The only thing GMAT can do to make it fair for all is to limit GMAT to once or twice a year - similar to the LSAT and the MCAT. Is it going to happen ? Buckley's chance, why shut down this cash cow ? Reality is a b*tch :(


Unless the b-schools do something about it. If they can`t trust the validity of GMAT, then GMAC have to do something about it. the reputations of all b-schools could be tainted.... whether the schools will do anything is dependent on employers attitudes towards the scandal. However, companies generally don`t care as long as they believe they are getting someone who can perform well.. imo. Ethics aside, of course.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 16:45
Quote:
In some ways, I blame the culture in those countries where the pressure to succeed is so great that even your every day ethical person breaks down to gain an advantage. I don't think people here in the US will ever understand, but when only the top few people of each province (20 something provices) in China get into the top local schools, and then the very top few of those schools get into a US top MBA program, can any of us Americans imagine the competition involved? This is out of almost 1.5 B people. I'm not saying it's right for them to cheat like this, but I can definitely empathize with their reasoning for taking this illegal path




As an Indian immigrant it pains me to admit it but I have seen that the importance placed towards ethical behaviour is much lower among Indians and Chinese. In addition to the peer pressure that you mentioned I think a lot has to do with respect for the rule of law. I think in the developing world, life and laws are often unfair and corruption in society is rampant. In such a scenario , I think legality is often defined as what you can get away with rather than what is right/wrong. I think a lot of Americans would be appalled at some of the practices that happen in the outsourcing industry for instance.

I still remember talking to one of my Chinese colleagues who was very intelligent but had poor English skills. I was surprised to learn that she had a 2150+ GRE score. It was baffling to think that someone who presumably know what consanguinity meant cannot put together a few basic sentences in English.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 19:50
If i recall Enron wasnt the brainchild of indian or chinese ... it was the product of Harvad B-school shmucks.. so lets face it..this is reality..this has been going on for quite sometime and as long as the majority of people work hard ..the system works..

I totally agree wit BSD..lately we have seen a spike in V-scores..he got a 720..when i am positive that score would have gotten him 750+ a year ago..grade inflation or grade corruption its going to happen..

rsrinivasan wrote:
Quote:
In some ways, I blame the culture in those countries where the pressure to succeed is so great that even your every day ethical person breaks down to gain an advantage. I don't think people here in the US will ever understand, but when only the top few people of each province (20 something provices) in China get into the top local schools, and then the very top few of those schools get into a US top MBA program, can any of us Americans imagine the competition involved? This is out of almost 1.5 B people. I'm not saying it's right for them to cheat like this, but I can definitely empathize with their reasoning for taking this illegal path




As an Indian immigrant it pains me to admit it but I have seen that the importance placed towards ethical behaviour is much lower among Indians and Chinese. In addition to the peer pressure that you mentioned I think a lot has to do with respect for the rule of law. I think in the developing world, life and laws are often unfair and corruption in society is rampant. In such a scenario , I think legality is often defined as what you can get away with rather than what is right/wrong. I think a lot of Americans would be appalled at some of the practices that happen in the outsourcing industry for instance.

I still remember talking to one of my Chinese colleagues who was very intelligent but had poor English skills. I was surprised to learn that she had a 2150+ GRE score. It was baffling to think that someone who presumably know what consanguinity meant cannot put together a few basic sentences in English.
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New post 26 Jun 2008, 19:58
I agree with you, except where you said legality is defined in India as what you can get away with. The legal system in India is very sophisticated and our judiciary is probably the only government service to still retain credibility in the face of widespread corruption. That said, I agree that morality is indeed loosely defined by our society, in light of the everyday struggles and economic disparity that is endured by much of the population. In India, we dont judge, we understand ; because we know how difficult it is achieve even the basic things in life. Still, the brazenness with which some of the desi applicants have cheated makes my blood boil. :evil:

rsrinivasan wrote:
Quote:
In some ways, I blame the culture in those countries where the pressure to succeed is so great that even your every day ethical person breaks down to gain an advantage. I don't think people here in the US will ever understand, but when only the top few people of each province (20 something provices) in China get into the top local schools, and then the very top few of those schools get into a US top MBA program, can any of us Americans imagine the competition involved? This is out of almost 1.5 B people. I'm not saying it's right for them to cheat like this, but I can definitely empathize with their reasoning for taking this illegal path




As an Indian immigrant it pains me to admit it but I have seen that the importance placed towards ethical behaviour is much lower among Indians and Chinese. In addition to the peer pressure that you mentioned I think a lot has to do with respect for the rule of law. I think in the developing world, life and laws are often unfair and corruption in society is rampant. In such a scenario , I think legality is often defined as what you can get away with rather than what is right/wrong. I think a lot of Americans would be appalled at some of the practices that happen in the outsourcing industry for instance.

I still remember talking to one of my Chinese colleagues who was very intelligent but had poor English skills. I was surprised to learn that she had a 2150+ GRE score. It was baffling to think that someone who presumably know what consanguinity meant cannot put together a few basic sentences in English.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 21:26
togafoot wrote:
ncprasad wrote:
toga, not everyone who cheated is dumb. Just by reading few blog posts, its pretty apparent that there were a good number of cheaters who are articulate, intelligent and also dis-honest. These folks cheated because they wanted to use every possible method to gain an advantage, not because they arent capable.

togafoot wrote:
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.


I doubt anyone who got high scores was dumb. cheating or not. However some of them wouldn`t have got into top schools without cheating. The point still stands, the GMAT can still be called into question as an effective tool for judging b-school acceptance. If we put this into a broader context :-
1) It appears easy to cheat due to the current system
2) The score itself has not been testing true b-school applicant capability because cheaters have not been found out as sub-standard during their studies. Therefore questioning the validity of the GMAT as an entrance requirement.

i.e If its not possible to tell who has cheated at the GMAT post matriculation and graduation, how is it possible to verify the GMAT as a valid test of b-school capability.


No one has tested the competency of cheaters in MBA programs - there isn't a large known sample of cheaters out there to say that whether they have performed below the average or not. Ergo, cheating has no relation to the validity of the GMAT as a predictor of success.

Honestly, I like the law school academic model. GMAT should go back to paper, just as the LSAT currently is. Also, it would be nice to have an equivalent of a "bar exam" for any b-schooler that wants to work in areas where ethics and competency are sensitive issues and have wide-ranging economic impact (e.g., investment banking, corporate consulting, non-profit...).
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal &nbs [#permalink] 26 Jun 2008, 21:26

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