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kidderek
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 09:13
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riverripper
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As many as 6,000 prospective MBA students may have used an illegitmate web site to view "live" questions before taking the GMAT test and now face POSSIBLE cancellation of their test scores. Applicants, current students, and graduates may have the tainted scores.


Ya how many of those votes let them off the hook are people who used ST.
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300% They voted multiple times.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 10:47
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bhatiagp
Had the amount been higher , one may have been suspicious, that someone paid that with an intention to cheat.
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I do agree with a lot of what you have stated on your post, but I have to disagree with this. I see no reason why the cost of something should increase or decrease the likelihood of its fraud. Yes, there are probably a bunch of people who registered for the VIP section without knowing what it actually was and trust me, I feel for them. But to say that people won't pay $30 to cheat because it is too cheap is a little extreme IMO.

bhatiagp

None of these could have gained any significant advantage from their membership. Also GMAC mentions that the advantage gained by any student is miniscule, as their databse has more than 70000 questions while only 440 questions have leaked. Again if the advantage is so miniscule, does it make sense to reprimand all site members , will have to be seen.
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Well, the actual advantage that test takers got from the VIP section could vary from nothing to a lot. Some people who accessed the VIP section did so with the intent to gain access to live questions. So whether or not that really paid off for them is in no way related to how guilty they are. They are guilty. Period.

bhatiagp
GMAC knew bout scoretop JJ since 2003 and got the JJ's off scoretop in 2006 , and they pursued a legal battle agianst scoretop. Now when you know that a site has a poor record, why couldnt GMAC have been proactive in their approach towards the VIP membership.
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I completely agree with you. The GMAC screwed up. Big time. They knew (and know) that even today there are tons of sites like Scoretop in operation. As you said, at the very least, they could put up a warning on their site with the names of the blacklisted sites. Rather than go after the sites themselves, warn the test taker of severe consequences if it is found that he/she accessed the sites listed here. I don't think this would have taken too much effort on the GMAC's part.

bhatiagp

In the Olympics , so many atheletes are disqualified due to cheating, does it mean that all their fellow particpants from the same country also used the same methods. Perhaps not..
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Absolutely not. There are a few bad apples and they need to be taken down.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 10:52
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I've just read this thread and I'm stunned! :shock: I've decided to post my thoughts about this situation.
As a person who has a lot of experience as a top-manager, I'd like to take a look at the problem from the other point of view.


GMAC is a business. It is a good business: monopoly with intellectual properties that are hard to control from antitrust laws. I suppose that CMAC, as a business, is based on
one general principle: GMAT score must be fair and truly reflect person's knowledge.
Any threats to this principle is a crucial! if GMAT score were unfair then B-schools would seek another criteria for applicants, applicants would not take GMAT and GMAC would be a bankrupt. So, GMAC, as any normal company, must keep its Achilles as save as possible. That is a true reason (ethical reason is rather second one) why GMAC reacts and must react on any attempt to challenge its main principle. The main action of GMAC: do real steps (lawsuits, reduction probability of repetitions) and a large PR campaign directed to make GMAT score as fair as possible in the eyes of its main customers: B-schools.

Expulsion form B-schools. I guess GMAC will carry out some lawsuits and some people, not many, will lost their positions. Preys is needed both GMAC, to clean its reputation, and B-schools, to show that their graduates is a high-quality persons. Why only some people will suffer? Just because effect/costs ratio will be decrease with increase in the number of involved people and lawsuits.

Copyrights. I would like to ask some intelligent people at this site: when a person posts question from bought OG, because he or she want to understand this question deeply, does he or she violate copyrights? I think he or she does... and why is GMAC so reluctant to fight with this situation? I guess the situation does not threaten profit and reputation of GMAC and, to some extent, even increase profit, because people learn more and retake exam. And do not forget about effect/costs ratio....
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 10:57
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Copyrights. I would like to ask some intelligent people at this site: when a person posts question from bought OG, because he or she want to understand this question deeply, does he or she violate copyrights? I think he or she does... and why is GMAC so reluctant to fight with this situation? I guess the situation does not threaten profit and reputation of GMAC and, to some extent, even increase profit, because people learn more and retake exam. And do not forget about effect/costs ratio....
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I too was curious about that...I would hate for this place and some of the other upstanding sites like beatthegmat to get bagged. The only reason people post OG questions is either they got them from someplace like the 1000 series and didnt realize they were OG questions or the solution in the book didnt make enough sense to them. I dont think anyone on here would actually study materials found only on here and expect to do well. Personally, I think as soon as you decide to take the GMAT the OG is something you MUST own.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:05
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My understanding is this: There exists no law that protects a company's rules that the company has created. For example, there's no law that says that you can't cheat on a test. Therefore, GMAC is using copyright as a means (written law) to an end (prosecution of scoretop).

Now, people have already begun to confuse the two. Some on this thread have equated using "live" questions with using copyrighted questions, such as OG or PR or Kraplan. The two are not only vastly different, but also the difference in the level of culpability is great.

It's one thing to ask someone to explain a problem on a retired question, and another thing to use a "live" question that someone who recently took the gmat posts on a paid forum. It's worlds apart.

Just because GMAC is seeking relief via copyright, doesn't make all copyrighted material equal.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:10
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So it seems like this has a lot of steam on BW now...I was contacted to give my opinions on it for another article. They are also recruiting two people, one on each side, to debate the subject. I actually sent a PM to Rhyme about that since I think he probably did the most research and definitely has a great side to argue.

One good thing about this scandal is the fact that it doesnt seem like it will be blown over. I think the more that is out there about this the less likely it is that schools and GMAC can let it go without some significant response. If GMAC cancels a bunch of scores then its on schools to take actions. I would say that there are going to be people affected at almost every top school.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:14
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I really don't understand the debate here. I guess the issue is the "intent" on the part of the people who signed up. But there are blogs out there that clearly state they new what JJs were.

The cheaters are starting to believe their own BS that they were witless nitwits who chanced upon a random website that they threw money at and are innocent victims in this entire sham.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:16
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riverripper
I dont think anyone on here would actually study materials found only on here and expect to do well. Personally, I think as soon as you decide to take the GMAT the OG is something you MUST own.
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I absolutely agree, OG should be inevitable part of every test-takers! But, let's return to copyrights: first page of OG - "No part of this book shall be reproduced.....".

I can go further, let's say I'm CEO Nokia and faces with the threat form Apple iPhone due to its touch-screen technology, that is patented. What should I do? Avoid copyrights lawsuits and lead company to a huge loses? Or encourage all my employees to 'invent' analog of touch-screen technology with low as possible but non-zero risks of copyrights lawsuits? It is critical reasoning from CEO table :-D
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:21
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walker

I absolutely agree, OG should be inevitable part of every test-takers! But, let's return to copyrights: first page of OG - "No part of this book shall be reproduced.....".
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If the GMAC decides to shut us down, they're even more stupid than I had originally thought. No forum advocates the usage + purchase of the OG more than the people here. NONE.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 11:34
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kidderek
If the GMAC decides to shut us down, they're even more stupid than I had originally thought. No forum advocates the usage + purchase of the OG more than the people here. NONE.
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Yeah, they are smart people and they prefer profit rather than satisfaction in protection of copyrights.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 13:12
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walker
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If the GMAC decides to shut us down, they're even more stupid than I had originally thought. No forum advocates the usage + purchase of the OG more than the people here. NONE.

Yeah, they are smart people and they prefer profit rather than satisfaction in protection of copyrights.
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well the whole point of copyrights is to protect profits (integrity of the test is vital to long term profit).
It wouldn't make much sense for them to go after legit sites like this for copyright reasons because that defeats the purpose of having the copyrights.
(I'm assuming profit gained from OG sales increases from usage of this site > profit lost from people using materials on this site instead of buying OG. A pretty reasonable assumption imo)


Sites like this are providing free customer service for the OG/GMAC through more thorough explanations of the answers.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 13:27
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found this on GMAT website :

Inappropriate Uses of
GMAT® Scores
1. AS A REQUIREMENT FOR AWARDING A
DEGREE.
The GMAT® test is designed for selection for
graduate management study, financial aid awards,
or counseling and guidance. Any other purpose
should be avoided.

2. AS A REQUIREMENT FOR EMPLOYMENT,
LICENSING OR CERTIFICATION TO PERFORM
A JOB, OR FOR JOB-RELATED REWARDS
(RAISES, PROMOTIONS, ETC.).
The use of the GMAT® scores for these purposes is
inappropriate. Further, programs using the GMAT®
exam may not supply score reports for any of these
purposes.

From a leading GMAT preparation company:

"a teacher must score at the 99th percentile (currently a 760+ overall) on an Official GMAT exam in order to be considered for our staff. "

This is on the website and no action is being taken. Is this because this company is corporate partner to some blue chip companies and charges a lot of money for providing training by instructors who appeared for real GMAT?
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 14:25
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After reading endless posts here and there about this whole affair, I am quite disturbed by a lot of people are so quick to rush to judgment regarding those who have used Scoretop.

In 100% honesty, can anyone here truly say what actually was happening at the Scoretop site over the course of the last 5+ years? Yes, we have seen SOME examples of questionable activity occur (based on the court documents), but that doesn't mean much of anything regarding everyone else associated in some way with Scoretop. Calling someone else a cheater is a serious accusation. In this situation, everyone's case needs to be examined individually. There should be no rush to judgment.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 17:28
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woot, river and rhyme are going to be famous now on BW. :)

I read through the entire BW posts, I'm just a bit disgusted by some of the defense people put up. I hope this doesn't blow over and the right amount of punishment gets dealt out (without turning into a witch hunt)
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 18:07
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kryzak
woot, river and rhyme are going to be famous now on BW. :)
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Cant say I really want the attention. People's opinions are heated on the subject and I don't really see any outcome other than me pissing off people by writing something official for BW. I'll leave them to their own devices. If they want to offer me a lead investigative journalist job they know where to find me. :)
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 21:29
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Wow - I gotta say I'm surprised by how prevalent cheating is ... I would have thought GMAC would have anticipated these events and put measures in place to prevent them.

For my own selfish purposes I would like GMAC to cancel the scores of everyone who used Scoretop (less competition for the rest of us!) but to be fair, I think there are a lot of honest guys out there who signed up unwittingly not knowing that there were "live" questions on the site. That said, I'm sure there are a lot of disingeneous ones too, but it's going to be tricky separating the two, and I do feel for the honest ones if their scores were cancelled.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 21:52
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Actually I just read from the BW article that Scoretop advertises having "live" questions. If this is indeed the case, then those guys should be accountable. Even if there was a 0.00000001% chance that they would get the same identical question on the GMAT, it's cheating.
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Another Cheating Scandal 30 Jun 2008, 23:21
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I've just thought that those people hit us twice. They unfairly increased their scores and eventually decreased our score, because in such situation GMAC rates a problem more easier than it is. For example, 700-level problem shifted to 650-level and we lost our points! I guess all cheaters reach 90% (20'000) and could essentially distort (6'000 of 20'000) GMAT scale at high level scores. :devil
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Another Cheating Scandal 01 Jul 2008, 05:53
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BSchoolorBust

For my own selfish purposes I would like GMAC to cancel the scores of everyone who used Scoretop (less competition for the rest of us!)
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There is absolutely nothing selfish about what you want.

walker
I've just thought that those people hit us twice. They unfairly increased their scores and eventually decreased our score, because in such situation GMAC rates a problem more easier than it is. For example, 700-level problem shifted to 650-level and we lost our points! I guess all cheaters reach 90% (20'000) and could essentially distort (6'000 of 20'000) GMAT scale at high level scores. :devil
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Well the stat is more in the 200,000 - 250,000. But with that said, I'm telling you this 6,000 domestic figure is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Another Cheating Scandal 01 Jul 2008, 06:03
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kidderek
BSchoolorBust

For my own selfish purposes I would like GMAC to cancel the scores of everyone who used Scoretop (less competition for the rest of us!)
There is absolutely nothing selfish about what you want.

walker
I've just thought that those people hit us twice. They unfairly increased their scores and eventually decreased our score, because in such situation GMAC rates a problem more easier than it is. For example, 700-level problem shifted to 650-level and we lost our points! I guess all cheaters reach 90% (20'000) and could essentially distort (6'000 of 20'000) GMAT scale at high level scores. :devil
Well the stat is more in the 200,000 - 250,000. But with that said, I'm telling you this 6,000 domestic figure is just the tip of the iceberg.
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I think Walker is referring to high scorers (GMAT 700+).
Keep in mind that these 6000 people were over 4 years and that not all VIP members cheated.
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