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Another Cheating Scandal

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New post 26 Jun 2008, 23:01
I agree with you about the legal system in macro terms. I think the structure of the Indian form of government is ideal. A merit based judiciary appointed by peers and more importantly an independent electoral system.I was dazzled at how imperfect the corresponding system is in the US. A Supreme Court appointed with political motives and an electoral system that relies on the likes of Katherine Harris.

However the reality on the ground in India is completely different. For the common man, justice is close to impossible. All forms of bureaucracy and law enforcement(police) are extremely corrupt and the judiciary is over burdened with cases that if/when a case goes through the legal system (most probably lasting decades),it hardly matters anymore.

With regards to the Enron argument that someone else made,venality and greed are universal traits and are not the monopoly of any one race. However the breadth of civil disobedience in day to day life (if I may) is more in some cultures than others.



ncprasad wrote:
I agree with you, except where you said legality is defined in India as what you can get away with. The legal system in India is very sophisticated and our judiciary is probably the only government service to still retain credibility in the face of widespread corruption. That said, I agree that morality is indeed loosely defined by our society, in light of the everyday struggles and economic disparity that is endured by much of the population. In India, we dont judge, we understand ; because we know how difficult it is achieve even the basic things in life. Still, the brazenness with which some of the desi applicants have cheated makes my blood boil. :evil:

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New post 27 Jun 2008, 06:38
GMAC has a responsibility not only to maintain the test be taken equitably, but also to protect the scores of those who took the test fairly.

They are failing to do so. From what I've read of the court documents, it appears that GMAC is only interested in shutting down the website. Rather than going after the culprits, GMAC is trying to put fear in future test takers and enlisted BW to release this article some one year after the proceedings began.

GMAC is being highly negligent in handling this situation. Thanks to rhyme's adventurous detective work, we already know the guy has started another website. Does GMAC even know this? Do they care?
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 07:04
I told GMAC about the other site, and I asked them when they would begin rescinding scores. They replied that they didn't know.

I'm disappointed because it seems clear to me, from my communications with them, that they probably don't intend to do anything. I hinted at the issue in twice and then just flat out asked them when I could expect to see revocations.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 07:15
If these people will go through such lengths to cheat on the GMAT, one can only imagine how falsified their essays and/or work experience would be.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 08:36
togafoot wrote:
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.

:-D
i agree. i think gmat should be pass/fail.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 08:49
togafoot wrote:
Ethics aside, and just to add another spin on the story....

Given that people have cheated on the GMAT, given that some of these people have graduated, given that some of these people have beaten other people at top schools to get some top jobs.....

What is the value of a GMAT score if someone who can`t get a top score without cheating can then go and be competitive with real top scorers? Surely the future question will be how important is the GMAT in measuring performance, academic capability and employability for top companies?

It puts the whole GMAT into question to a degree.


Well, they do say the hardest part of bschool is getting in.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 10:39
kidderek wrote:
GMAC has a responsibility not only to maintain the test be taken equitably, but also to protect the scores of those who took the test fairly.

They are failing to do so. From what I've read of the court documents, it appears that GMAC is only interested in shutting down the website. Rather than going after the culprits, GMAC is trying to put fear in future test takers and enlisted BW to release this article some one year after the proceedings began.

GMAC is being highly negligent in handling this situation. Thanks to rhyme's adventurous detective work, we already know the guy has started another website. Does GMAC even know this? Do they care?


Drawing comparison to illegal downloads of music or movies, the first thing RIAA/MPAA does is to request an injunction and bring down the file sharing site. With the information they had, why couldn't GMAC do the same? I would think that if the site operator doesn't respond to your suit, it becomes easier to legally shut down the host servers.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 11:49
svrider wrote:
kidderek wrote:
GMAC has a responsibility not only to maintain the test be taken equitably, but also to protect the scores of those who took the test fairly.

They are failing to do so. From what I've read of the court documents, it appears that GMAC is only interested in shutting down the website. Rather than going after the culprits, GMAC is trying to put fear in future test takers and enlisted BW to release this article some one year after the proceedings began.

GMAC is being highly negligent in handling this situation. Thanks to rhyme's adventurous detective work, we already know the guy has started another website. Does GMAC even know this? Do they care?


Drawing comparison to illegal downloads of music or movies, the first thing RIAA/MPAA does is to request an injunction and bring down the file sharing site. With the information they had, why couldn't GMAC do the same? I would think that if the site operator doesn't respond to your suit, it becomes easier to legally shut down the host servers.


They could have, they didn't at the request of the FBI. It hurt them a bit because thats exactly the argument the judge used to deny the claim that this had caused material ongoing damage to their business (his argument was, if it had, why didnt they file for a temporary order years ago??) - their response was that they didn't at the request of the FBI.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 14:16
Cross posting this from BW (I am stuck on that one at work since the club doesnt work)...I know a lot of you hate the site and dont read it anymore so here you go...I found the easiest thing for GMAC to use to cancel scores if they want. This is actually in the 2007.

GMAC is a company, it owns the GMAT...it also owns your score, which is why you have to pay to send it to schools, except for the 5 included with the test. So though its "your" score, they can cancel it and there really is nothing you can do about it. As for the scoretop VIPs, they could do it to every single person who ever bought access to that area, simply by saying that its possible VIPs had advanced access to live questions. Since in their opinion (they actually have examples in their lawsuit), live questions were made available on the scoretop VIP section...they dont even need to confirm users saw it, just the fact that it was there is reason enough.

"There are circumstances, however, in which examinees may have their scores canceled or withheld without prior notice or an opportunity to appeal. Those circumstances generally involve disruptions by an examinee during exam administration, advance disclosure of exam content (even if a specific examinee’s actual access to disclosed test content cannot be confirmed by GMAC® or Pearson VUE), "

Whats hard to figure out is if they do cancel scores will they allow people to retake the GMAT...and whether they will cancel all scores of everyone they can identify as VIPs or just some people. Without the servers and tons of time they probably wouldnt be able to find out specifically who posted, read, or downloaded what. They do have all the paypal information...now whether that identifies everyone or whether they will need paypals help is another story. Its possible that since they worked with the FBI on this, that they will be able to obtain anything they want from paypal if they already dont know (speculation of course).

HBS rejected 100+ out of 8000 or so applicants a few years ago for accessing their status early (probably far fewer applicants since it was only one round worth). Duke suspend/expelled over a dozen students out of one class for cheating (said to be cultural differences) So GMAC canceling a few thousandscores would not be extremely out of proprtion considering they give out 200k+ tests a year.
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New post 27 Jun 2008, 23:38
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 391632.htm

new article posted on businessweek. so not all vip members will be in trouble. i know everyone has been very worried or concerned about the scoretop issue. it's sad that some people will get the scores canceled by gmac. :shock:
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New post 28 Jun 2008, 05:18
This is an interestign take:

Stacey Kole, deputy dean for the full-time MBA program at the University of Chicago, says a lack of hard evidence implicating someone in actual cheating will make the decision-making process difficult. "Without hard evidence, it's very hard to say you're going to throw someone out," she says. "We don't have a problem taking action when we know someone has cheated. I have a tough time taking action when I don't know."


I wonder if this will be the predominant stance of the Deans, or it will be more hard line?
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New post 28 Jun 2008, 07:17
This is what Darden's Dean Bruner has to say.

Dean Bruner's Blog wrote:
Getting admitted to a competitive B-school is a life-changing event. The GMAT is a high-impact part of the admission process. Therefore it is tempting to cheat on the test. Darden and its peer schools will brook absolutely no cheating. The integrity of the GMAT is vital to the discovery and admission of real talent.


See the full post here: http://www.darden.virginia.edu/html/dea ... x?id=15014

But the million $$$ question has not been answered: What constitutes cheating?
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New post 28 Jun 2008, 08:34
I hope bschools put the full court press on GMAC to actually research the individuals who were at scoretop.com
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New post 28 Jun 2008, 09:49
its interesting to google MJJ and VJJ and see peoples blogs on them with all personal identifying information. It seems they saw nothing wrong with it.
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New post 30 Jun 2008, 02:38
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Heres my take on this cheating episode..

JJ's were live questions and sold as live questions.. All those who paid for these should be penalized.This was till 2006. Most ppl who used this would have graduated or will be graduating this year . I dont empathise with cheats and cheating and the punishment should be severe for those who knowingly cheated and promoted the same.

Now coming to VIP membership, the questions here were sold as questions created by Scoretop team. Now GMAC clains that some of these are live questions . Maybe a handful knew these are live ,they were probably the ones who were paid to post these questions, or answered these.. Many may have not known the same. Their evidence all points to the time when JJS were active and not VIP.

According to me Posting and participating in JJ was blatant cheating. Its also very easy to catch members who particpated in the same.

The VIP membership situation is tricky because VIP participation was cheating by those who knew that these are live questions or posted their exam questions on VIP forum. Now how do you deteremine that , who cheated and who didnt. If a flight is highjacked, its true that all passengers suffer , but its not that all of them become hijackers..

Now coming to the fact that students paid 30$ for VIP membership and they paid to cheat. Is 30$ a detterent, when the questions are sold as additional practice . I dont think many would blink an eyelid to pay 30$ for additional practice for a month, specialy when it is sold as additional practice. Its really not expensive for many to think what theyre getting into... Had the amount been higher , one may have been suspicious, that someone paid that with an intention to cheat.Also scoretop moderator wrote on its website, that sharing any content from OG, or the actual test was not allowed, and the concerned person can be reported to GMAC.Its a surprise they promoted one thing and practiced the other.. Atleast knowing this before hand would have saved so many who are now in a soup, many because they were ignorant. It would be sad that few would have to stay with that tag through out life for no fault of theirs. Now :- Who said "ignorance is bliss ".

Even many of those who took their test , while they were VIP members, may have had an advantage, but what about those who took their VIP membership, but didnt find it useful , or those who purchased the membership but never used it, or those who took the membership, but gave the test much later. None of these could have gained any significant advantage from their membership. Also GMAC mentions that the advantage gained by any student is miniscule, as their databse has more than 70000 questions while only 440 questions have leaked. Again if the advantage is so miniscule, does it make sense to reprimand all site members , will have to be seen.

Now I have a query for GMAC.

GMAC knew bout scoretop JJ since 2003 and got the JJ's off scoretop in 2006 , and they pursued a legal battle agianst scoretop. Now when you know that a site has a poor record, why couldnt GMAC have been proactive in their approach towards the VIP membership. Couldnt they have paid 30$ , had a staff member participate in the forum , shout it out the minute a live question was loaded and immediately catch culprits the very minute they posted live questions. It only needed to match questions with those in its test database . Why has it taken them 2 years to do this .Again GMAC should have announced on its site that scoretop was under scrutiny as it has shared live questions in the past, and particpation on this forum can lead to problems for site members... That would have been an eye opener for many, as the investigation is on since 2006....

This is for those who have labelled certain nationalities as cheats.
Cheating is a human trait, and its sad to label Cinese, Indians, Asians as cheats because they were a majority of the site members . Lets not forget that they are amongst the majority of the MBA applicants, and the site membership reflects the general application trend. In the Olympics , so many atheletes are disqualified due to cheating, does it mean that all their fellow particpants from the same country also used the same methods. Perhaps not..

Personally GMAC has a fight on its hands, the cheats are still active out there.. Perhaps, they need to officially monitor all GMAT sites, and material sold . It should have staff liase with site owners and moderators, and report any noncompliance to GMAC policies, and nip the problem in its bud..

I think a part of the trouble could also be the outsourced test centers . Many of us who have been through IT Certification are aware of cheating through Dumps which are available online, where live test questions are posted. GMAT is also tested in an IT testing environment, in the same testing centers. These centers are also centers for MCSE, CCNA , etc, certifications, that have today have lost their relevance as it is easy for someone to be certified, and have no clue of the technology practically. The defeat the purpose of having the certification in the first place.GMAT must go back to a stricter and perhaps better testing environment. Maybe have it like the SAT, held on certain days during a month. Maybe hold the test in schools / universities only, where they can better limit cheating, than hold a test in private institutions, where the affiliations on the test center employees can be questionable. I personally find it impossible to remember one question and its 4 options after the test . How can someone build a set of many such questions. It looks difficult, and unrealistic, that the site pay someone to pay per question. I doubt that someone can effectively remember an RC, LONG CR AND Sc especially for verbal questions. Maths may still be possible , unless they are carrying some aid like mobile cams , or digital cams etc to record these questions.

Also some testing centers are still using paper sheets for scratch work during the testing. Are the sheets being destroyed , after the test . Are the boards that the GMAC uses for scratch work , effectively erased post test .
Many questions are unanswered and can effectively eliminate some part of the problem.

Post investigation, maybe GMAC should perhaps move out of this outsourced testing environment to one that they monitor. Its not easy to monitor 3rd party testing centers.

BTW , I have a suggestion here . I think some of us can probabably work part time as GMAC reporters. Rhyme you have a great career as a Professional GMAC undercover detective, and some of us GMAtclubbers can participate with u in ur hunt for cheats ... It may add to our EC activites, and perhaps be a novel EC to mention in our MBA schools apps..
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post Updated on: 09 Jul 2008, 02:41
deleteddeleteddeleteddeleted

Originally posted by sumit1234 on 30 Jun 2008, 07:44.
Last edited by sumit1234 on 09 Jul 2008, 02:41, edited 1 time in total.
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New post 30 Jun 2008, 08:01
sumit1234 wrote:
please advise

PS: To avoid IP tracking, i asked my friend in USA to post this and all the gmat dates/scores were altered


You're probably better off asking GMAC.
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New post 30 Jun 2008, 08:03
As many as 6,000 prospective MBA students may have used an illegitmate web site to view "live" questions before taking the GMAT test and now face POSSIBLE cancellation of their test scores. Applicants, current students, and graduates may have the tainted scores.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal  [#permalink]

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New post Updated on: 09 Jul 2008, 02:41
deleteddeleteddeleteddeleted

Originally posted by sumit1234 on 30 Jun 2008, 08:09.
Last edited by sumit1234 on 09 Jul 2008, 02:41, edited 1 time in total.
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New post 30 Jun 2008, 08:46
kidderek wrote:
As many as 6,000 prospective MBA students may have used an illegitmate web site to view "live" questions before taking the GMAT test and now face POSSIBLE cancellation of their test scores. Applicants, current students, and graduates may have the tainted scores.



Ya how many of those votes let them off the hook are people who used ST.
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Re: Another Cheating Scandal &nbs [#permalink] 30 Jun 2008, 08:46

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