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Attention GMAT Takers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (very important)

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New post 29 Sep 2011, 22:08
Very good post. This will put end to all the rumours floating around. Thanks GMAT club for making it official
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New post 30 Sep 2011, 06:08
Interesting that they mention fairness to international test-takers.

The MGMAT says that scoring higher on verbal is rare on the GMAT and so it's "worth more" in terms of overall score to, for example, score 5pts higher on the verbal than to score 5pts higher on the quantitative.

However, don't business schools take this information into account when evaluating a student? For example, if they look at a student from India or China who has a 45 quant and 35 verbal and a student from the US who has a 45 quant and at 40 verbal....it would seem that they should view those two scores as roughly equivalent. The American student has the advantage of the verbal section being in his or her native language and so obviously the American student's score should be higher, right?
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New post 30 Sep 2011, 19:03
adamtn wrote:
Interesting that they mention fairness to international test-takers.

The MGMAT says that scoring higher on verbal is rare on the GMAT and so it's "worth more" in terms of overall score to, for example, score 5pts higher on the verbal than to score 5pts higher on the quantitative.

However, don't business schools take this information into account when evaluating a student? For example, if they look at a student from India or China who has a 45 quant and 35 verbal and a student from the US who has a 45 quant and at 40 verbal....it would seem that they should view those two scores as roughly equivalent. The American student has the advantage of the verbal section being in his or her native language and so obviously the American student's score should be higher, right?


What about the relative advantage for Indian and Chinese students in the Quantitative sections ?
Also, though some aspects of verbal section may be advantageous for native speakers, overall the verbal section is not a test of English language. It has more to do with intent, comprehension, understandability. (if it were not so , we would have vocabulary questions instead of CR's). I feel GMAT is as fair an exam as possible in the currently diverse world :) .

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New post 30 Sep 2011, 19:05
You can see how you compare within your pool of applicants here by the way:
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New post 04 Oct 2011, 09:06
Hey all,

Just wanted to follow up with the latest. Stacey wrote a second article about how to study with a focus on meaning in SC:

Quote:
I’m going to reiterate what I’ve been saying (and forgive me if you already heard this and got the message!): meaning issues have always existed, and there is plenty of existing material from which to study. We just didn’t concentrate as much on meaning before, because we were able to do more simply with grammar. They aren’t putting totally new kinds of SC questions out there – they’re just increasing the proportion of an already-existing issue.

Now, because in the “old” days, the proportion was skewed more towards “pure” grammar, we were often able to get away with just studying grammar and not worrying so much about meaning. We can’t get away with that now – we have to study the meaning as well. Luckily, the existing questions are already FULL of meaning issues, so we have plenty from which to study...


You can read the whole thing here: http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... on-part-2/

(And if you're looking for that list of questions, Stacey put it together here: http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... h-meaning/ )

Hope you find it helpful!
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New post 08 Oct 2011, 19:45
Thank you for the explanation; however, such changes, introduced without any preliminary information from GMAC, still seem not so fair, especially for non-native speakers. Several of my friends took their exam in September, and they also failed to find a reasonable explanation for their rather weak official results (650-670), although their GMAT Prep results were rather good (730-750). Now it's clear why it happened.
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New post 09 Oct 2011, 03:43
ventresca1975 wrote:
Thank you for the explanation; however, such changes, introduced without any preliminary information from GMAC, still seem not so fair, especially for non-native speakers. Several of my friends took their exam in September, and they also failed to find a reasonable explanation for their rather weak official results (650-670), although their GMAT Prep results were rather good (730-750). Now it's clear why it happened.


what you are saying is a speculation for me, is a conjecture.

a lot of factors come into the picture. time, pressure, disguise and so on.......

the first time a read this post I thought: but if logical predication is a contsnt throughout Sc , why people are so surprised about that ??

In kaplan book the first strategy suggested is the meaning, MGMAT is the same (ok first rule is the grammar but for me always are two elements that overlapping on themselves ......;)
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New post 16 Oct 2011, 19:22
I forget exactly what the Revolution Prep sentence correction strategy is from the book, but as a rule of thumb, I ALWAYS try to determine what message the original sentence tried to convey. If the underlined blurb is wrong or sounds awkward, I look for the grammatically correct choice that still conveys the intent of the original blurb. That only makes sense, and if this is the new thing that's on the GMAT, then I've done it already from the beginning of my prep.

There have been some posts about the fact that it's easier for native English speakers to do well on the verbal section. That's not necessarily true. the Critical Reasoning section involves critical thinking skills and analyzing arguments to their components and are just as hard for native speakers as non-native speakers, and reading comprehension isn't easy for many native speakers. However, for test takers who have a great grasp of English concepts, going great on verbal can pay dividends on the overall score.

I'm an American, and while verbal is my stronger section, (I got 37 on V, 45 on Q last prep test for a 670), it's not easy for many native speakers of English, since there are many native English speakers who will do great at quant and struggle in verbal, which explains why getting a great verbal score and an average or worse quant score means a better percentile than vice versa.
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New post 21 Oct 2011, 03:10
Hello all!

This was the reply I posted on the MGMAT web site. I think it bears emphasizing given people's reactions to this matter:

"There are more questions now in which two or more answers are grammatically correct, but only one maintains the meaning of the original question stem."

If these are like the examples that I have seen myself in the Official Guide, et c., I have to say that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the time, when two answer choices have grammatically correct syntax and idioms but different semantics, the incorrect one is incorrect not so much because it fails to match the meaning of the original as because the meaning is, when you think about it long enough, illogical. This makes the sentence grammatically incorrect, because language is about communication, and grammatical rules are there to govern the output of this communication. A sentence fails when it does not say what the speaker wanted to say.

For that matter, the stem in Choice A can be semantically incorrect as well. Try this one, from MGMAT's own Sentence Correction book:

"Unskilled in math, Bill's GMAT Quant score was poor."

That's a faulty, illogical opening modifier (Bill's GMAT Quant score cannot be unskilled in math)--and therefore it is a semantic error. If something like that appears in choice A, you definitely should NOT preserve that original meaning in your final answer choice.

'When we asked how common idioms still are right now and when they would be gone completely, he said that “ideally” he hopes they’re all gone already, but there may still be some in the pool – it takes time to scrub the questions completely.'

I doubt whether you can COMPLETELY delete idiomatic aspects of grammar from the pool; they are as grammatical as everything else. Sure, you can write fewer questions that place emphasis on which preposition goes where, but questions that emphasize various aspects of the meaning of a sentence inevitably touch on proper diction and there will be some idiom in there by default.

But MGMAT seems to have clarified that with this addendum to the original full article:

“Note: a few days after this was originally published, GMAC clarified that only American-centric idioms and expressions have been stripped out of the exam. We have edited the below accordingly so as not to leave any misinformation to confuse other students in the future. (30 Sep 2011)”

Cheers!
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New post 21 Oct 2011, 03:21
ventresca1975 wrote:
Thank you for the explanation; however, such changes, introduced without any preliminary information from GMAC, still seem not so fair, especially for non-native speakers. Several of my friends took their exam in September, and they also failed to find a reasonable explanation for their rather weak official results (650-670), although their GMAT Prep results were rather good (730-750). Now it's clear why it happened.


Hello,

I know it's frustrating, but unfair? That's a little harder. The GMAC tests the sample questions before putting them out there and they are weighed by difficulty in terms of the number of people who got them wrong.

Also, if they had coaches, perhaps it depended on who these coaches happened to be. I personally have been hearing for quite some time now that the GMAT is placing less and less emphasis on idioms and more and more on semantics and logic, because that is more within the psychometric spirit of the test. But a good GMAT coach ought to have already considered that idioms are not really in-line with this psychometric spirit, as they require an awful lot of memorization for a test that supposedly isn't about memorizing. I specialize in GMAT on Continental Europe (almost exclusively non-native English-speaking clientele) and my colleagues and I have been emphasizing semantics over idioms for well over a year, with sentence diagrams and the whole nine yards.
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New post 27 Oct 2011, 18:51
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Hi ,

Thanks for the post.

But i have one question.

When you say, there can be more than one answer, does GMAT clearly call it out in the exam.

I mean do they give in the instructios that there can be more than one answer.

Please confirm .

Regards,
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New post 28 Oct 2011, 13:57
Does it mean that the SC section will focus more on logical meaning? That is, the sentence itself would be more difficult in logic to understand and some answers would be grammatically correct but meaningfully wrong?

OOOOOOOh, logic and comprehension become more and more important now, and the "dead" grammar rules are becoming less important, I think.
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New post 06 Nov 2011, 22:07
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hoogly wrote:
WarLock ...?

" 1 GMAC indirectly saying that they are going to favor native speakers now as only native speakers can do this without any specific study "

Where did GMAC say this ??? The only thing it says is " they are moving towards completely phasing out idioms! They don’t want to penalize non-native speakers for things that don’t really interfere with comprehension and communication"

Do you understand what the above statement means ? It means Idioms have nothing to do with comprehension ( meaning or logical understanding ) and so Idioms have been in the process of phasing out ? I do not understand where it is mentioned that they are going to favor native speakers ! Meaning refers to logical meaning of a sentence. an option might be grammatically correct but depending on words chosen or placement of words sometimes can change the meaning of the sentence ! This is what is being emphasized ! Analyze a given fact even before you dwell out scaring thousands of minds preparing for the GMAT !

Dude WarLock , may be your test did not go well and you are frightening number of native speakers on the forum !!!

This is pessimistic attitude and if you are planing to re take I wish it does not come in the way and you reach your target !

I am emphasizing once again, As per the gmat blog from Mgmat , all we could decipher is :

1. Emphasis has been on questions with normal grammatical errors but after elimination we are always left with two grammatically correct answers now. So, eliminate the one that intends the meaning of original sentence .Seems like this is already in place. I do not understand how it will be a disadvantage to non native speakers like us. We are giving a international standardized test and whats the point if our standards of deciphering the meaning upon reading a sentence is low ? Are we that bad at understanding the logical meaning a sentence tries to convey ? These are just rumors or wrongly understood by warlock based on Mgmat blog.

2. Idioms will be completely eliminated soon. As of now there a few questions based on idioms in the pool. This is definitely good news to non native speakers, we need to cram several idioms as before !

As Mgmat blog mentions, let us wait till Monday to get more information on this. As of now I really do not think there is need to raise an outrage . At least most of the test takers here i guess are intelligent enough to not panic based on a biased view of a disappointed individual. We are Gmat takers and people with work experience. All these things should induce a sense of deeper analysis of the things. This is what most of the Gmat verbal section expect from us. We prepare for Gmat and yet fail to apply our reasoning skills to practical situations and panic on even every small change we hear of ! ;)

I already gave a reply to this ! check out my latest post. Dude no overlapping conflicts or neither I am after you. All i am asking is to wait till Monday and do not agitate people with completely deviated understanding of the blog Hope you take it in a good sense and we are here to prepare for GMAT ! - Our Common Goal !
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New post 04 Dec 2011, 22:44
Somebody who has already took GMAT recently pls confirm if idioms are used in GMAT exam
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New post 08 Dec 2011, 13:12
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As a native speaker, I think most idioms are stupid anyways. They're just sayings that have integrated into the English Language.

As for how to study for sentence corrections. . .READING! I've been reading all my life and that helps identify grammatical and meaning issues. So for those of you non-native speakers, grab a book and for once to do some reading for fun. Please note that it should be one from a reputable author (Twilight doesn't count). The more you read, the more you are able to familiarize yourself with excellent sentences, and specific meaning. It's also a goo way to increase your vocabulary. I look up every word I don't know.
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New post 08 Dec 2011, 21:46
Warlock007 wrote:
Aj85 wrote:
Warlock007 wrote:
Dear all


Firstly, I never asked the GMAT to make anything easier for anybody. As a STANDARDISED test, the GMAT HAS an obligation to make the test EQUAL for everyone. If thousands of b-schools are accepting the GMAT, then I believe it is subject to some integrity.


The GMAT was designed to predict your chances of success in business schools in the United States. The test is as unfair to non-native speakers as a pre-screening for health insurance coverage is to obese people. On average, they'll cost the company more to support. Its nothing personal, its just statistics. You're confusing "being unfair" with "accurately predicting a lesser chance of success". Being exceptional in English, not just adequate, is very important to doing well in US business schools. If you didn't realize how dominant and important English is in the business world, you wouldn't be trying to get a degree at an English speaking institution. Its just the way it is. Sure, it sucks for non-English speakers, but it's fair. To be clear, I'm not saying that an English speaker with a 750 GMAT is smarter or better apt than a non-native speaker with the same score. In fact, the opposite is probably true, as some of the non-native speaker's intelligence was likely lost in translation. An Indian with a 600 GMAT could be much smarter than an American with a 670, but that's not what business schools are testing. They're measuring...your chances...of being successful...in US...business schools....the end.
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New post 06 Feb 2013, 10:47
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Warlock007 wrote:
recently held 4th summit of GMAC officials declare the below major changes
1 No idioms will be Tested anymore

please check out this link
http://www.manhattangmat.com/blog/index ... orrection/

This is an old post, but I would like to comment on it.

Both the comments in this post and the MGMAT blog cited were written in 2011. Since then, GMAC has published the OG13, and this most recent official guide gives absolutely no indication that they are thinking of phasing out idioms. In my perspective, the idea that "no idioms will be tested anymore" is a deleterious rumor that induces poor folks preparing for the GMAT to neglect something vital that they ought to study.

See this post, which gives an analysis of the SC questions in the OG13.
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/how-import ... ment-13846

Mike :-)
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New post 06 Feb 2013, 20:14
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mikemcgarry wrote:
This is an old post, but I would like to comment on it.

Both the comments in this post and the MGMAT blog cited were written in 2011. Since then, GMAC has published the OG13, and this most recent official guide gives absolutely no indication that they are thinking of phasing out idioms. In my perspective, the idea that "no idioms will be tested anymore" is a deleterious rumor that induces poor folks preparing for the GMAT to neglect something vital that they ought to study.

See this post, which gives an analysis of the SC questions in the OG13.
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/how-import ... ment-13846

Mike :-)


OG13 is the latest offering from GMAC but the questions it gives are not latest. I really doubt that to put in the OG, GMAC painstaking picks out those questions which are closest to the current set of questions. OG only gives you a bunch of old questions to give you an idea of the kind of questions that were in their database a few yrs back. Too much value may not be gained by data mining those questions. I think it is more important to listen carefully to what GMAC representatives say: http://officialgmat.mba.com/2011/09/29/ ... gmat-exam/

As for 'how important are idioms', even in the old questions, it is apparent that very rarely would you be tested on an idiom alone. Since only language idioms (and not American) are being tested nowadays, any English speaking person would be aware of many of them. Every section of GMAT is based on higher order reasoning skills - so is the SC section. Hence, learning up long lists of idioms will be a waste of time and energy since there are 1000s of idioms and one does not know which one might appear. Instead, one needs to focus on reading more (to know the nuances of the language most commonly used) and build appropriate reasoning skills to help one identify the accurate meaning.

Quote from Larry Rudner's post: 'Some Sentence Correction items continue to pose reasoning tasks that incorporate English language, NOT American, idioms'
- which implies that the SC questions are primarily reasoning tasks. Some may incorporate language idioms too.
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New post 09 Feb 2013, 08:18
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Thank you for this, Karishma. Great post.

Quote:
I really doubt that to put in the OG, GMAC painstaking picks out those questions which are closest to the current set of questions. OG only gives you a bunch of old questions to give you an idea of the kind of questions that were in their database a few yrs back.


I couldn't agree more. Whenever GMAC updates the Official Guide, they swap out a handful of questions (83% of 13th edition questions also appeared in the 12th edition), and they seem to do so somewhat haphazardly. There are plenty of questions in the 13th edition that appeared in the 10th edition... which was published more than 10 years ago. We treat the OG like it's the Bible, and it's definitely the best thing out there if you're trying to get a grasp on the GMAT. But sometimes we forget that most of the questions in that book are pretty old and crusty.

Quote:
Hence, learning up long lists of idioms will be a waste of time and energy since there are 1000s of idioms and one does not know which one might appear. Instead, one needs to focus on reading more (to know the nuances of the language most commonly used) and build appropriate reasoning skills to help one identify the accurate meaning.


By some estimates, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 idioms in the English language. They're absolutely an unavoidable part of any language, and it would be pretty much impossible to completely remove them from a standardized test such as the GMAT. GMAC is doing its best to remove cultural bias from its idioms, but there are still tons and tons of standard English idioms on the GMAT. It's a hopeless errand to memorize thousands of idioms, and your prep time is always better spent developing other skills.

Thank you again for a great post, Karishma!
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