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vishaldec4
AjiteshArun

Thanks, I guess you are right.
I would like to know how to reach the next level of answering questions? say from 600 to 700 lvl.
At this point i have a very good accuracy 500 level (100%) 600 level (+85%), but only 25% in 700 lvl.

I want to reach at least above 65% accuracy in this 700 level.
Some 700 lvl questions in SC i am able to answer if given 3 or 4 minutes, but it is not the same case with CR & RC.
Do I revisit concepts ? or Do more 700 lvl Questions? Deeper Error Logs?

Because I feel that each 700 Lvl has its own different method or concept that it tests and is unique, be it SC / CR ? RC.
Any tips please.
Hi vishaldec4,

I don't know enough about you to identify what you need to work on, but here are some relevant observations (opinions, nothing more):
1. I don't think that it's the concepts that change when the difficulty level changes. The GMAT seems to test the same set of things, just in different ways.
2. I feel that basic error logs can help, but very detailed error logs are a waste of time. Apart from taking a lot of time to set up and maintain, very detailed logs create a lot of unreliable data.
3. Patience and perseverance are underrated.
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AjiteshArun

Please help.

Initially going through the answer choices, I narrowed it down to C, although I was not really sure about answer choice A. I read A again and it got me thinking, I mean the farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs which *when fully grown* are generally not attacked by the mountain lions, but what about when these cattle and hogs are young, maybe they are an easy target for the mountain lions. So if this is the case, then maybe the farmers do have a reason to make false claims. The farmer has claimed that because the people don’t have any reason to make false claims, then the people must be telling the truth, but what if the farmers did have a reason— I was thinking on these lines. Hence the confusion.

Please help

The weird part about this option is that even if people do have a reason to make false claims, the conclusion still remains very much valid. Also, we don’t know if the people whom the farmer is referring to are themselves farmers.

Maybe I am thinking too much

Regards,

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INSEADIESE
AjiteshArun

Please help.

Initially going through the answer choices, I narrowed it down to C, although I was not really sure about answer choice A. I read A again and it got me thinking, I mean the farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs which *when fully grown* are generally not attacked by the mountain lions, but what about when these cattle and hogs are young, maybe they are an easy target for the mountain lions. So if this is the case, then maybe the farmers do have a reason to make false claims. The farmer has claimed that because the people don’t have any reason to make false claims, then the people must be telling the truth, but what if the farmers did have a reason— I was thinking on these lines. Hence the confusion.

Please help

The weird part about this option is that even if people do have a reason to make false claims, the conclusion still remains very much valid. Also, we don’t know if the people whom the farmer is referring to are themselves farmers.

Maybe I am thinking too much

Regards,
Hi INSEADIESE,

You've diagnosed this correctly: too much thinking. :)

When we look at option A, which says that ~mountain lions don't generally attack fully-grown animals, what we should check is whether that is a good reason to say that ~local wildlife managers should not begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence. On its own, option A is not enough, because we have no reason to think that the threat (the reason that local wildlife managers should act) is limited to fully-grown animals raised by farmers.
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Bunuel
Farmer: Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts—the latest just last month—and, while mountain lions were thought to have been driven from this entire region about twenty years ago, there is no reason for the people who reported seeing a mountain lion to have deliberately concocted a false report. Therefore, local wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence.

Which of the following would, if true, most seriously weaken the farmer's argument?

(A) Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.
(B) Mountain lions are dissimilar in size and color to other wild animals found near the suburban outskirts.
(C) No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
(D) There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.
(E) Recent surveys show that more than half of the people in the region report that they have never seen a mountain lion before.

Premise:
There is no reason for the people who reported seeing a mountain lion to have deliberately concocted a false report.
Conclusion:
Local wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence.

The following link is assumed:
no reason to lie = mountain lion's presence
One way to weaken the conclusion is to attack this link.
C: No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
Here, NOT ONE of the reported sightings can be corroborated.
Given that ONLY SEVERAL PEOPLE have reporting a sighting -- and that NOT ONE of these sightings can be corroborated -- the conclusion that wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence is WEAKENED.


For those skeptical of the OA, imagine a politician making the following statement:
Several people claim to have seen a mountain lion.
We have been unable to corroborate any of these claims.
We must take swift action to combat the mountain lion.

Clearly, the green statement above -- a paraphrase of the OA -- weakens the conclusion in red.
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Bunuel
Farmer: Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts—the latest just last month—and, while mountain lions were thought to have been driven from this entire region about twenty years ago, there is no reason for the people who reported seeing a mountain lion to have deliberately concocted a false report. Therefore, local wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence.

Which of the following would, if true, most seriously weaken the farmer's argument?

(A) Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.
(B) Mountain lions are dissimilar in size and color to other wild animals found near the suburban outskirts.
(C) No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
(D) There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.
(E) Recent surveys show that more than half of the people in the region report that they have never seen a mountain lion before.


CR90061.01
OG2020 NEW QUESTION

Argument Evaluation

Situation
A farmer argues that, because several people in recent years, including someone just last month, have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts, local wildlife managers need to address the mountain lion's presence. The farmer claims that people would not intentionally create a false story about seeing a mountain lion.

Reasoning
What would most seriously call into question the farmer's argument that because there have been reports of mountain lion sightings, wildlife managers should address the issue? Even if it is true that people would not intentionally create a false report of having seen a mountain lion, it is possible that people have mistakenly believed they have seen a mountain lion when in fact what they saw was something else. If some fact called into question the accuracy of the reports of mountain lion sightings, then the farmer's conclusion would have weaker support.

(A) Even if most fully grown animals raised by farmers would not be attacked by mountain lions, there could still be good reason to be concerned about the presence of mountain lions in the suburban outskirts. The mountain lion might attack animals before they are fully grown.

(B) A dissimilarity in size and color between mountain lions and other wild animals in the area where the mountain lions were purportedly sighted would make it less likely that people mistakenly believed that an animal they spotted was a mountain lion. So, this would strengthen the farmer's argument, not weaken it.

(C) Correct. If there actually were at least one mountain lion in the area, and several people over a period of a few years accurately claim to have seen one, then it seems likely that on at least some occasions a person would have been in the presence of someone else at the time, given the frequency with which people are in the company of others. So, if there have been no instances of a person reporting seeing a mountain lion when in the company of another, perhaps that is because when someone has mistakenly believed that an animal is a mountain lion, the other person helps correct the mistaken belief. With no one else present, an illusory sighting would be less likely to be corrected.

(D) There have been purported sightings of a mountain lion in the area for several years, so presumably, if the sightings are accurate, there has been at least one mountain lion for several years, so the sightings could be accurate even if no mountain lion has migrated to the area in the past year.

(E) It might be likely that most people living in the area would not have seen a mountain lion even if one lived in the area. For instance, the mountain lion might intentionally try to avoid people.


Nobody seems to be talking about D.

I definitely think it’s a weakener.

But I want to ask the experts, is it because, the option mentions “regional reports” and since that particular report could be wrong or inaccurate or even local reports (or any other) report would be more trustworthy?

Is this the reason to reject option D.

And moreover, I studied that in verbal, every wrong option could be eliminated. So, how can we eliminate D.?

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gmatter923
Bunuel
Farmer: Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts—the latest just last month—and, while mountain lions were thought to have been driven from this entire region about twenty years ago, there is no reason for the people who reported seeing a mountain lion to have deliberately concocted a false report. Therefore, local wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence.

Which of the following would, if true, most seriously weaken the farmer's argument?

(A) Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.
(B) Mountain lions are dissimilar in size and color to other wild animals found near the suburban outskirts.
(C) No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
(D) There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.
(E) Recent surveys show that more than half of the people in the region report that they have never seen a mountain lion before.


CR90061.01
OG2020 NEW QUESTION

Argument Evaluation

Situation
A farmer argues that, because several people in recent years, including someone just last month, have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts, local wildlife managers need to address the mountain lion's presence. The farmer claims that people would not intentionally create a false story about seeing a mountain lion.

Reasoning
What would most seriously call into question the farmer's argument that because there have been reports of mountain lion sightings, wildlife managers should address the issue? Even if it is true that people would not intentionally create a false report of having seen a mountain lion, it is possible that people have mistakenly believed they have seen a mountain lion when in fact what they saw was something else. If some fact called into question the accuracy of the reports of mountain lion sightings, then the farmer's conclusion would have weaker support.

(A) Even if most fully grown animals raised by farmers would not be attacked by mountain lions, there could still be good reason to be concerned about the presence of mountain lions in the suburban outskirts. The mountain lion might attack animals before they are fully grown.

(B) A dissimilarity in size and color between mountain lions and other wild animals in the area where the mountain lions were purportedly sighted would make it less likely that people mistakenly believed that an animal they spotted was a mountain lion. So, this would strengthen the farmer's argument, not weaken it.

(C) Correct. If there actually were at least one mountain lion in the area, and several people over a period of a few years accurately claim to have seen one, then it seems likely that on at least some occasions a person would have been in the presence of someone else at the time, given the frequency with which people are in the company of others. So, if there have been no instances of a person reporting seeing a mountain lion when in the company of another, perhaps that is because when someone has mistakenly believed that an animal is a mountain lion, the other person helps correct the mistaken belief. With no one else present, an illusory sighting would be less likely to be corrected.

(D) There have been purported sightings of a mountain lion in the area for several years, so presumably, if the sightings are accurate, there has been at least one mountain lion for several years, so the sightings could be accurate even if no mountain lion has migrated to the area in the past year.

(E) It might be likely that most people living in the area would not have seen a mountain lion even if one lived in the area. For instance, the mountain lion might intentionally try to avoid people.


Nobody seems to be talking about D.

I definitely think it’s a weakener.

But I want to ask the experts, is it because, the option mentions “regional reports” and since that particular report could be wrong or inaccurate or even local reports (or any other) report would be more trustworthy?

Is this the reason to reject option D.

And moreover, I studied that in verbal, every wrong option could be eliminated. So, how can we eliminate D.?

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Option (D) talks about last year but the argument talks about the past few years:

"Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen a mountain lion"

Hence even if there has been no report of lions migrating in the past year, it doesn't mean they did not migrate say a few years ago.
Even if option (D) said "past few years", it would not weaken because no regional report does not mean the lions did not migrate. Perhaps the officials did not come to know that they have migrated to this region.
Think of it this way:
A - A crime happened last night.
B - But there is crime report from last night.

Does this mean no crime happened?
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AjiteshArun :

I am not convinced with the answer. I even can't say this choice is better than others. No proof does not mean people are telling lie.
This is not a good official question I believe.
I agree that this is a weak weakener.

Let's try replacing "mountain lion" with "aliens".

1. Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen aliens.
2. There is no reason for the people who reported seeing an alien to have deliberately concocted a false report.
3. Therefore, the government should begin to urgently address the presence of aliens.

If it turns out that every single person who reported seeing aliens was alone at the time, we'd probably be less likely to believe them. And this is not to say that we'd think that all of them were lying. It's just that having more "eyes" on something is generally better.

Most importantly, we must remember what our task is. We are not looking to find an option that is (on its own) convincing. Instead, we are looking for the best of the 5 options presented to us. The correct option, therefore, just needs to be better than the other 4 options.

But in (A) if the sheeps which are expected to be killed by lions have not been killed recently gives us the proof of absence of lion. Or am I missing the language that it is telling the general truth which was true even in the presence of lions?
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lakshya14
But in (A) if the sheeps which are expected to be killed by lions have not been killed recently gives us the proof of absence of lion. Or am I missing the language that it is telling the general truth which was true even in the presence of lions?
Hi lakshya14,

Option A doesn't include any reason to think that the "several people" are wrong. It says only that fully-grown animals are generally not attacked by mountain lions.

Bunuel
Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.
Think about it this way: if we know that there are mountain lions around, would we not want action to be taken just because fully-grown animals are generally not attacked by mountain lions? There could be so many other things that we could be concerned about.
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VeritasKarishma
Bunuel
Farmer: Several people in the past few years have claimed to have seen a mountain lion in the suburban outskirts—the latest just last month—and, while mountain lions were thought to have been driven from this entire region about twenty years ago, there is no reason for the people who reported seeing a mountain lion to have deliberately concocted a false report. Therefore, local wildlife managers should begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence.

Which of the following would, if true, most seriously weaken the farmer's argument?

A. Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.
B. Mountain lions are dissimilar in size and color to other wild animals found near the suburban outskirts.
C. No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
D. There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.
E. Recent surveys show that more than half of the people in the region report that they have never seen a mountain lion before.


CR90061.01
OG2020 NEW QUESTION

Argument:

- Several people claimed to have seen a mountain lion in this region.
- These people have no reason to lie.

Conclusion: Hence, we should start addressing this problem (implying mountain lions are present in this region)

To weaken this, we need to doubt the claim of "several people".

C. No person who claimed to have seen a mountain lion had anyone else with them at the purported sighting.
Whenever a person claimed to have seen a mountain lion, there was no one with him who could corroborate. Certainly seems to make the claim weak. Could it be that these people were under the influence of some drug and hence mistook another animal for a lion etc? It does seem to make us question the validity of the claim if in every instant, there was no second person around. It is a weak weakener, I agree, but it is relevant.

E. Recent surveys show that more than half of the people in the region report that they have never seen a mountain lion before.
More than half of the people reported that they have never seen a mountain lion before. But are these the people who reported to have seen the mountain lion? If the people who claimed to have spotted the lion had not seen a mountain lion before, then it makes their claim weak. But who these "more than half of the people" are, we don't know.

Answer (C)

But one of the premises itself is - "people have no reason to lie"

Weakening an argument should not need us to invalidate the premise itself right?
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vatsal323
But one of the premises itself is - "people have no reason to lie"

Weakening an argument should not need us to invalidate the premise itself right?
I guess the idea is that a person could be mistaken, rather than deliberately concocting a false report.
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AjiteshArun
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AjiteshArun

Please help.

Initially going through the answer choices, I narrowed it down to C, although I was not really sure about answer choice A. I read A again and it got me thinking, I mean the farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs which *when fully grown* are generally not attacked by the mountain lions, but what about when these cattle and hogs are young, maybe they are an easy target for the mountain lions. So if this is the case, then maybe the farmers do have a reason to make false claims. The farmer has claimed that because the people don’t have any reason to make false claims, then the people must be telling the truth, but what if the farmers did have a reason— I was thinking on these lines. Hence the confusion.

Regards,
Hi INSEADIESE,

You've diagnosed this correctly: too much thinking. :)

When we look at option A, which says that ~mountain lions don't generally attack fully-grown animals, what we should check is whether that is a good reason to say that ~local wildlife managers should not begin to urgently address the mountain lion's presence. On its own, option A is not enough, because we have no reason to think that the threat (the reason that local wildlife managers should act) is limited to fully-grown animals raised by farmers.

Hi MartyTargetTestPrep, AjiteshArun, GMATNinja and other experts,

First, thank your for your previous posts! I have one follow-up question and hope you could share some ideas when you are available.

When I practiced this question for the first time, I got (C) correctly. But, after practicing the "alligator sightings" question which I touched on in Marty's YouTube video and answered incorrectly, I came back to this question and felt doubtful about (A).

The conclusion of this argument is: several claims of sightings of mountain lions->(mountain lions should exist) ->the government should urgently address this issue.

The option (A) says: Farmers in the suburban outskirts mostly raise cattle and hogs, which when fully grown are generally not attacked by mountain lions.

I got one message from (A): the cattle and hogs might be attacked by mountain lions when they are calves or cubs. Have they been attacked over the past few years? They might have not been, or the farmer who urges the government to address the issue should directly complain that his livestock, or the livestock of other farmers, were attacked by mountain lions.

Does not the information that "farmers' livestock could be attacked by mountain lions" give us some reason to think that this farmer perhaps made the argument for his own benefits? And, to get the attention from the government, he might have exaggerated the urgency of the matter? The parts in green color are my thinking lines....am I making my own assumptions now? Should I not doubt the farmer's credibility even though I think he made this claim for his benefits?

Sometimes, I find it hard to identify the "key point" in CR questions--in this question, is the key point the presence of the mountain lions? is it the urgency of the matter? or is it the credibility of the farmer? They all seem "relevant" to me. If there were no option (C) but were another option suggesting that the farmer is known for giving unrealistic advice or that the mountain lions are herbivores, the option should also be able to weaken the conclusion, right?

Please point out my logic bug and I would be really grateful. Thanks.
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When I practiced this question for the first time, I got (C) correctly. But, after practicing the "alligator sightings" question which I touched in Marty's YouTube video and answered incorrectly, I came back to this question and felt somewhat doubtful about (A). I am not completely sure why (A) is incorrect.
Hi GraceSCKao,

I think MartyTargetTestPrep is in the best position to help you with the other question and how it links to this one, so I'll focus on this question and option A. I think it's important to keep in mind that even the correct answer here is a weak weakener, as first pointed out by KarishmaB here. This is not entirely unexpected (either in CR or in verbal generally).

You are absolutely right when you say "several claims of sightings of mountain lions->(mountain lions should exist) ->the government should urgently address this issue". But if we tried using option A to try to weaken the farmer's argument, it'd look a little like this:

Farmer: Several sightings of a mountain lion have been reported, including recently. I don't think people have a reason to lie, so local wildlife managers need to do something about the mountain lion.
Response: No they don't. It's not a problem, because mountain lions don't generally attack fully-grown cattle and hogs raised by farmers in the area.

Option A definitely takes one possible problem out, but the farmer didn't link his or her response to farmers (maybe other people are the ones he or she is worried about), or maybe the farmer is concerned about attacks on animals other than cattle and hogs, or about attacks on young animals.

Option C, on the other hand, brings into question the evidence itself. It's a little hard to believe that over the years, the mountain lion has never been sighted by more than one person at least once. Is the lack of corroboration just coincidence? How likely is it that no group of more than one has ever reported seeing a mountain lion? That's what the GMAT is asking us to take a call on here.
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AjiteshArun

But if we tried using option A to try to weaken the farmer's argument, it'd look a little like this:

Farmer: Several sightings of a mountain lion have been reported, including recently. I don't think people have a reason to lie, so local wildlife managers need to do something about the mountain lion.
Response: No they don't. It's not a problem, because mountain lions don't generally attack fully-grown cattle and hogs raised by farmers in the area.

Option A definitely takes one possible problem out, but the farmer didn't link his or her response to farmers (maybe other people are the ones he or she is worried about), or maybe the farmer is concerned about attacks on animals other than cattle and hogs, or about attacks on young animals.
Hi AjiteshArun,

Thank you for your detailed and clear explanation as always. :)
I could see the picture better now.

It seems that the bug of my logic was that I did not properly use the information in the option (A) to evaluate the conclusion ( (A) -->mountain lions could still attack young animals or people -->the urgency of the matter is not lowered.) On the other hand, I made some inference that does not necessarily follow from the option (A) ( (A) --> the farmer might argue for his own benefits --> the farmer might have exaggerated the matter to get attention from the government --> the accuracy of the farmer's argument is doubtful.) Now I can see that I made too many my own assumptions....

Although sometimes we do need to make inference from the answer choices in CR questions, there is a line between reasonable inference and unwarranted assumptions. I just need to work more on identifying the line.

Thank you again for your explanation!!
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Hi IanStewart avigutman - when it comes to (D) - what are your thoughts on the word migrating to the area specifically ? i eliminated (D) because of that phrase migrating to the area specifically

Reason - i thought just because you migrating to the area, does that really mean == lions are present in the area ?

Maybe i got lucky and my logic wasnt 100 % sound.

I personally did not find the phrase in the past year such a problem, because in the paragraph - peple have been claiming to see lions over the past 'few years'

So in the past year is a SUBSET to the phrase 'few years'

in the past year is a SUBSET to the larger timeline mentioned in the paragraph of the argument, hence a valid weakener because one year out of the 'many years' -- option (D) does weaken the argument

I chose (C) because it was a stronger contender but i found (D) a legitimate weakener as well and not something you cant just eliminate easily


Quote:

(D) There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.
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jabhatta2
found (D) a legitimate weakener as well and not something you cant just eliminate easily
Quote:

(D) There have been no regional reports in the past year of mountain lions migrating to the area.

Does the lack of regional reports of lion migration in the past year cast any doubt on the farmer's argument? Please try to articulate why, jabhatta2.
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avigutman

Does the lack of regional reports of lion migration in the past year cast any doubt on the farmer's argument? Please try to articulate why, jabhatta2.

Hey avigutman , prior to articulating, just a point of clarification -- Per (D) --there are NO regional reports.

But Who is writing these reports ? Are the farmers themselves writing the reports OR are these reports being written by third party govt officials ?

I thought it was the latter when I read option (D)

I think this difference matters because
-- If farmers themselves are writting the reports : i guess then, option (D) doesnt really matter.
-- If third party, govt officials are writting the reports --- then option (D) becomes a weakener.
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jabhatta2
Just a point of clarification -- Per (D) --there are NO regional reports.

But Who is writing these reports ? Are the farmers themselves writing the reports OR are these reports being written by third party govt officials ?

Yes, jabhatta2, there are NO regional reports (note the word "lack" in my initial response).
And, I agree with your interpretation of who's writing the reports (some kind of government agency).
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