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MGOBLUE2
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Ninkorn - Columbia and NYU are heavy, heavy feeders to Wall St. There is no question on that. Additionally, students come to those schools often wanting to work in NYC. If the job market on Wall St is bad, those people have to consider options elsewhere (for example, CPG). Where are CPG firms? Often, in many midwestern cities without the NYC glamor.

Trust me, if you ask Columbia's career center about some of their biggest problems, they will tell you its finding jobs for students who do not want to leave NYC.

ninkorn
MGOBLUE2
NYC based schools are in REAL trouble. Why? Not just bc the banks recruit less, but also because their students are less willing to leave the NYC area. It's hard to find work in NYC, period.

I don't know about this Booth vs Kellogg argument above but banks are not the only employers in NYC. I live and work in NYC. It really isn't that bad here. Whatever the news press is generating about NYC job market, they are over-doing it for ratings and to sell print copies of whatever they sell for ad revenue.

Some firms are on hiring freeze and banks aren't as hiring much, but people are not on the streets. Job market is not as good as previous yrs but companies are still hiring. People lose jobs and find new jobs. Even people with jobs are leaving for new jobs. Volume is down, but it's not worse than anywhere else in the country.
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MGOBLUE2
Ninkorn - Columbia and NYU are heavy, heavy feeders to Wall St. There is no question on that. Additionally, students come to those schools often wanting to work in NYC. If the job market on Wall St is bad, those people have to consider options elsewhere (for example, CPG). Where are CPG firms? Often, in many midwestern cities without the NYC glamor.

Trust me, if you ask Columbia's career center about some of their biggest problems, they will tell you its finding jobs for students who do not want to leave NYC.
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I never said anything about Columbia or NYU recruiting. I am just disputing your claim that "it's hard to find work in NYC period." Key points from my previous post:
1) Financial Services firms aren't the only employers in NYC
2) I recently had a job offer from rival firm to lead one of their advisory team. (Job market is still there. It's just not the same)
3) You are basing your claim based on MBA recruiting. MBA recruiting isn't NYC employment market.
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ninkorn
3) You are basing your claim based on MBA recruiting. MBA recruiting isn't NYC employment market.
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Ninkorn, we are talking about MBA recruiting here since that is what will be what you guys are looking at in the near future. I mean do you really want to go into a job you were qualified for before your MBA after investing 100k in getting that degree? Mgoblue2 is probably putting a better spin on it than the reality will look like for NYC jobs, since I would say almost all of the MBA grads heading to NYC are going to Wall Street type jobs.

I don't think this year will take the huge drop in IB hiring into account as much as the following years rankings will. I think some schools in the next ranking set will be the one where you notice some big changes due to the drastic reduction in banking jobs. If you look at the top hiring companies at the finance powerhouses its not going to be pretty. Outside of McKinsey, Bain, and BCG the top 10 to 15 hiring companies at these schools are major banks. Just go through the employers listed on BW for each school and you will see what I mean. You are talking 150-200+ students at places like Wharton, Chicago, and Columbia just heading to places like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Merrill, Lehman, Goldman, UBS, Barclays, etc...

Readjusting not only students goals to meet reality but also the set of companies and number of people those companies are going to take is not going to happen over night. Students at a top finance school probably went there with a dream and wont quickly give up on that. Companies have core schools and right now students at those schools will be easier to attract so there is less motivation to switch to other schools where they dont have long standing relationships. The schools that are able to do the fastest are going to be the best off...and the ones that were already the closest to todays reality are most likely the ones who will get their the fastest. It is going to be hard if you want something outside of IB but are at a school that has historical placement that is far from what today's job market is like. You will be facing a lot of people who are bailing on those IB jobs and your Plan A is their Plan B...which means far more competition for you.

Based on what we are seeing for finance jobs its going to be tough in the near future and who knows how its going to change going forward. So schools that send less than 25% into finance jobs (especially banking stuff) are going to be doing a lot better than schools that send closer to 50% of their students into finance jobs. Personally I would not be surprised next spring (2010) to see Stanford beat HBS for #1 and to see MIT and Kellogg actually jump over Wharton based purely on where these schools have been placing students over the years.
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I think you guys are discussing completely different things.

I think the confusion started when MGOBLUE implied that it's hard to find job in NYC period.

Reading his post, I also got the impression that he was talking about the entire NYC job market, not just MBA recruiting.

That being said, none of us are experts here. We are not economists nor are we supporting our claims with any concrete facts. It's just our prediction based on limited information we have. It should start and end at that.
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I apologize for not being clear. I am talking about MBA recruiting. The pool of entry-level MBA jobs in NYC is much smaller than years past. No surprise there. But the reason why Columbia and NYU are affected more than others schools is because more students that go to these schools want to be in NYC. Again, no surprise here. And nearly every major MBA employer in NYC is either a financial service company, or a firm that serves these companies. That is ALL I am saying.
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Wondering why California schools, lets keep aside Stanford, do much better in US News rankings than any other; or am I plain imagining?
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abhyudaya
Wondering why California schools, lets keep aside Stanford, do much better in US News rankings than any other; or am I plain imagining?
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It's just a matter of volume- between the UC and Cal State University systems and private schools like USC and Stanford, there must be at least 15-20 full-time MBA programs in California. Plus, the UC schools have always historically been some of the most reputable research Universities in the world. I don't think there is anything strange about it...
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MGOBLUE2
Did Michigan skyrocket after receiving the Ross donation? I doubt it.

Look, in the next two years, the finance heavy schools are going to take a hit. I actually think Chicago will be fine, but the NYC based schools are in REAL trouble. Why? Not just bc the banks recruit less, but also because their students are less willing to leave the NYC area. It's hard to find work in NYC, period.

terp26

It plays a factor for that same reason. Peoples perception of the $300M is important. Peer assessment and recruiter assessment are major factors. General consensus is that this will propel the school and continue chicagos momentum. I agree.
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Michigan's money was mostly used for its new building. Chicago's money will be used to lure superstar faculty to the school.
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terp26
Michigan's money was mostly used for its new building. Chicago's money will be used to lure superstar faculty to the school.
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That may be true, but it's not going to have any affect on this year's rankings. I doubt USNews is taking its considerations to that level of granularity. What probably registers to them is that Chicago got a major influx of cash, not how it specifically plans to spend the money.

I think his point was that upon announcing the Ross donation, Michigan didn't immediately shoot up the rankings. All of the top schools already have large amounts of money and superstar faculty. What matters most in the USNews rankings is peer assessment and acceptance rates.
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Exactly my point, thanks Atlmba
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terp26
Michigan's money was mostly used for its new building. Chicago's money will be used to lure superstar faculty to the school.

That may be true, but it's not going to have any affect on this year's rankings. I doubt USNews is taking its considerations to that level of granularity. What probably registers to them is that Chicago got a major influx of cash, not how it specifically plans to spend the money.

I think his point was that upon announcing the Ross donation, Michigan didn't immediately shoot up the rankings. All of the top schools already have large amounts of money and superstar faculty. What matters most in the USNews rankings is peer assessment and acceptance rates.
Show more



Acceptance rate matters most? Check the stats below. It is closer to 1%.

Quality Assessment is 40% which is where booth will rise.

Businessweek's survey of recruiters ranked chicago booth #1 in the most improved category. I can only imagine that will transfer over to the 15% recruiter assessment score. Kellogg is #24 on that list and MIT is #38.

Additionally the money is not factored in by US NEWS. So they are not looking at the rankings at a granular level. It is the perception of chicago's peers that make up this score and the endowment can have an impact.


I will imagine all the other factors will increase in the same percentage with the other peer schools so there will be minimal effect.


METHODOLOGY:
Quality Assessment (weighted by .40)

Peer Assessment Score (.25)In the fall of 2007, business school deans and directors of accredited master's programs in business were asked to rate programs on a scale from "marginal" (1) to "outstanding" (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 45 percent of those surveyed responded.

Recruiter Assessment Score (.15) In the fall of 2007, corporate recruiters and company contacts who hire from previously ranked programs were asked to rate programs on a scale from "marginal" (1) to "outstanding" (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 27 percent of those surveyed responded.

Placement Success (weighted by .35)
Mean Starting Salary and Bonus (.14) The average starting salary and bonus of 2007 graduates of a full-time master's program in business. Salary figures are based on the number of graduates that reported data. The mean signing bonus is weighted by the proportion of those graduates that reported a bonus, since not everyone who reported a base salary figure reported a signing bonus.

Employment Rates for Full-time Master's Program in Business Graduates The employment rate for 2007 graduates of a full-time master's program in business. Those not seeking jobs or for whom no job-seeking information is available are excluded. If the proportions of graduates for whom no job-seeking information is available and who are not seeking jobs are high, then the information is not used in calculating the rankings. Employment rates at graduation (.07) and three months after graduation (.14) are used in the ranking model.

Student Selectivity (weighted by .25)
Mean GMAT Scores (.1625) The average Graduate Management Admission Test score of students entering the full-time program in fall 2007. Scores on the test range from 200 to 800.

Mean Undergraduate GPA (.075) The average undergraduate grade-point average of those students entering the full-time program in fall 2007.

Acceptance Rate (.0125) The percent of applicants to the full-time program in fall 2007 who were accepted.
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terp26
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Michigan's money was mostly used for its new building. Chicago's money will be used to lure superstar faculty to the school.

That may be true, but it's not going to have any affect on this year's rankings. I doubt USNews is taking its considerations to that level of granularity. What probably registers to them is that Chicago got a major influx of cash, not how it specifically plans to spend the money.

I think his point was that upon announcing the Ross donation, Michigan didn't immediately shoot up the rankings. All of the top schools already have large amounts of money and superstar faculty. What matters most in the USNews rankings is peer assessment and acceptance rates.



Acceptance rate matters most? Check the stats below. It is closer to 1%.

Quality Assessment is 40% which is where booth will rise.

Businessweek's survey of recruiters ranked chicago booth #1 in the most improved category. I can only imagine that will transfer over to the 15% recruiter assessment score. Kellogg is #24 on that list and MIT is #38.

Additionally the money is not factored in by US NEWS. So they are not looking at the rankings at a granular level. It is the perception of chicago's peers that make up this score and the endowment can have an impact.


I will imagine all the other factors will increase in the same percentage with the other peer schools so there will be minimal effect.


METHODOLOGY:
Quality Assessment (weighted by .40)

Peer Assessment Score (.25)In the fall of 2007, business school deans and directors of accredited master's programs in business were asked to rate programs on a scale from "marginal" (1) to "outstanding" (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 45 percent of those surveyed responded.

Recruiter Assessment Score (.15) In the fall of 2007, corporate recruiters and company contacts who hire from previously ranked programs were asked to rate programs on a scale from "marginal" (1) to "outstanding" (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 27 percent of those surveyed responded.

Placement Success (weighted by .35)
Mean Starting Salary and Bonus (.14) The average starting salary and bonus of 2007 graduates of a full-time master's program in business. Salary figures are based on the number of graduates that reported data. The mean signing bonus is weighted by the proportion of those graduates that reported a bonus, since not everyone who reported a base salary figure reported a signing bonus.

Employment Rates for Full-time Master's Program in Business Graduates The employment rate for 2007 graduates of a full-time master's program in business. Those not seeking jobs or for whom no job-seeking information is available are excluded. If the proportions of graduates for whom no job-seeking information is available and who are not seeking jobs are high, then the information is not used in calculating the rankings. Employment rates at graduation (.07) and three months after graduation (.14) are used in the ranking model.

Student Selectivity (weighted by .25)
Mean GMAT Scores (.1625) The average Graduate Management Admission Test score of students entering the full-time program in fall 2007. Scores on the test range from 200 to 800.

Mean Undergraduate GPA (.075) The average undergraduate grade-point average of those students entering the full-time program in fall 2007.

Acceptance Rate (.0125) The percent of applicants to the full-time program in fall 2007 who were accepted.
Show more

Yeah, selectivity is what I meant. That, with peer assessment makes up half the score according to those stats. Look, I don't want to get into an argument over this, because I think it is a pointless discussion, but what I am saying is that Chicago is a top school, and so it competes with other top schools in those rankings. Is a $300M donation going to move it ahead of Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton based on that alone, when those schools already have enormous endowments? I'm not saying it won't move ahead of them, but if it does, it won't be because of a donation that was just given months ago. Peer and employer opinions are forged over a much longer time than that.
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Quote:

Yeah, selectivity is what I meant. That, with peer assessment makes up half the score according to those stats. Look, I don't want to get into an argument over this, because I think it is a pointless discussion, but what I am saying is that Chicago is a top school, and so it competes with other top schools in those rankings. Is a $300M donation going to move it ahead of Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton based on that alone, when those schools already have enormous endowments? I'm not saying it won't move ahead of them, but if it does, it won't be because of a donation that was just given months ago. Peer and employer opinions are forged over a much longer time than that.
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Well it won't move them past H/S/W.......but against Kellogg it may. We will just have to wait and find out then.
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Quote:

Yeah, selectivity is what I meant. That, with peer assessment makes up half the score according to those stats. Look, I don't want to get into an argument over this, because I think it is a pointless discussion, but what I am saying is that Chicago is a top school, and so it competes with other top schools in those rankings. Is a $300M donation going to move it ahead of Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton based on that alone, when those schools already have enormous endowments? I'm not saying it won't move ahead of them, but if it does, it won't be because of a donation that was just given months ago. Peer and employer opinions are forged over a much longer time than that.

Well it won't move them past H/S/W.......but against Kellogg it may. We will just have to wait and find out then.
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Booth's endowment is actually still smaller than Kellogg's so I dont think it will have much of an impact at all. Long term, Kellogg is building a new facility, will that have an impact yes probably but that and Booth's gift really aren't playing a role. Booth hasn't brought new professors in yet, maybe after this year they will and then that may be taken into account.

Honestly, in reality H/S, then Wharton, then B/K/MIT are pretty much locked into their spots and its not going to change. Its the whole cluster thing of the ultra ultra elites, the ultra elites, the elites, etc...
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Quote:

Honestly, in reality H/S, then Wharton, then B/K/MIT are pretty much locked into their spots and its not going to change. Its the whole cluster thing of the ultra ultra elites, the ultra elites, the elites, etc...
Show more

Waaiiiit a minute there river. What is this ultra ultra elite status that you refer too. This I have never seen before. I applied to Kellogg because it was a so called "ultra elite school" (and according to everything that I learned on this forum, ultra elite was a high as you could get). Now you are coming out and telling me there is something better, this mythical "ultra ultra" elite? Now what am I supposed to do :? :lol:
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Apply to H/S/W in R3 :)
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It's official - Mark your calendars for April 23.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090306 ... comingsoon

The Grad School Rankings Are Coming Soon

The upcoming 2010 edition of our America's Best Graduate Schools rankings will be published online on April 23, 2009, at usnews.com. We're currently redesigning our grad school rankings website in order to improve the usability for the business, law, engineering, medicine, education categories as well as the rest of the rankings.

The law school rankings will be getting an upgrade. We plan to publish our first-ever ranking of part-time J.D. law programs. This new ranking will evaluate the part-time law programs at 87 American Bar Association fully accredited law schools that are fully accredited by the American Bar Association. We defined a part-time J.D. program as a law school that has a separate admission process for part-time law students and has at least 20 part-time students enrolled. As we have annually since 1990, we'll also publish updated law school rankings, which will cover all law schools. We'll also have new rankings in clinical training, dispute resolution, environmental law, healthcare law, intellectual property law, international law, legal writing, tax law, and trial advocacy.

Also new in the 2010 edition will be updated peer-assessment-only rankings for Ph.D. programs in English, history, psychology, sociology, political science, economics, and criminology and criminal justice. In addition, we will be publishing new rankings for master's degree programs in library and information studies.

We will also have new rankings in four other large graduate school disciplines: business, education, engineering, and medicine (as well as the various specialties associated with those disciplines).
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domtri33
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My guess is that Booth will edge Kellogg on the heels of the 300 mil.

Curious why that would play a factor? I dont believe endowment is in their ranking methodology. That 300million is impressive but doesnt have immediate impact, thats a long term tool for them and wont play much of a factor this year.

Very true. I take back last statement. Kellogg above Booth!!
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Good man.

Two thoughts:
  • I'm also in the camp that believes the $300M gift to Booth won't have an impact, at least not in the short term. It may have an impact over the long term, but then again, they plan to use it toward their faculty, which is already amazing. Would another Nobel prize really make a difference in the rankings? Probably not.
  • I'm particularly curious to see how the rankings of the finance-heavy schools adjust over the next few years. Don't expect any change this year, but next year could get interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if we saw some shifting as the schools are evaluated for their ability to react to the crisis.
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OhThatMBA

Two thoughts:
  • I'm also in the camp that believes the $300M gift to Booth won't have an impact, at least not in the short term. It may have an impact over the long term, but then again, they plan to use it toward their faculty, which is already amazing. Would another Nobel prize really make a difference in the rankings? Probably not.
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I believe that the gift may have some impact. It's all about understanding how the rankings work.

https://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

Peer Assessment Score (.25)In the fall of 2007, business school deans and directors of accredited master's programs in business were asked to rate programs on a scale from "marginal" (1) to "outstanding" (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 45 percent of those surveyed responded.

25% of the entire ranking is "peer assessment" (in my mind this is utter garbage, but alas that's another conversation). Essentially, the perception of Booth could be lifted because of the prestige, publicity, name change, etc. that the school received along with the $300mm gift.

Since this peer assessment is qualitative/subjective, there could be deans at other schools that will now rank Chicago higher because of the gift. I mean does the dean of Pepperdine (I'm using them as an example and I don't mean to knock them specifically) really know if Chicago is better than Wharton or Kellogg? No! But he may rate Chicago a "5" now (because he heard/read about the gift) and perhaps he'll rate Kellogg and Wharton each a "4."

There were 383 schools that responded to the survey (although data was only valid from 127 schools for some reason)! That's A LOT of schools outside of the most competitive schools that we think of on g-club (let's say top 30ish). We can throw in name such as UC Irvine, Miami, Illinois, and on and on. Do they know which school is better??? Again, I'm not knocking on these programs, but I’m merely pointing out that a lot of these smaller schools could have some impact on Chicago’s rankings. Their deans could give Chicago a higher score than some of the peers in the top 5, helping Chicago stay at the number 4 spot, possibly bump it up one and/or push down MIT and Kellogg a notch or two.

Bottom line: Based on the US News methodology, in my opinion, the gift could impact the rankings.

OhThatMBA
  • I'm particularly curious to see how the rankings of the finance-heavy schools adjust over the next few years. Don't expect any change this year, but next year could get interesting.
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Agreed. Will be trouble for NYU, CBS, among others.
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Gil
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Concentration: General Management; High Tech; Entrepreneurship
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Finishing Up the New Grad School Rankings 15 Mar 2009, 02:00
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Here's my guess. It's just a guess based mostly on gut, so please do not take offense if you are rooting for a particular school:

1. Harvard - seems to be a concensus almost everyone would pick this school over the rest.
2. Stanford - hardest school to get into. Not very finance oriented.
3-5. Chicago Booth - yes. I get the feeling they are doing something right and I am waging that they climb another step in the ranking.
3-5. Wharton - Finance orientation may take a temporary toll
3-5. Kellogg - strong marketing program will help it close the gap from Wharton.
6. MIT.
7. Berkeley.
8. Columbia.
9. NYU.
10. Tuck
11. Duke
12. Ross
13. Yale
14. UCLA
15. Cornell.
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