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555-605 Level|   Conjunctions (FANBOYS)|   Grammatical/Rhetorical Construction|   Idioms/Diction/Redundancy|                           
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 25 Mar 2020, 13:12
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Hi GMATNinjaTwo GMATNinja generis hazelnut mikemcgarry TheEconomistGMAT GMATGuruNY , VeritasKarishma, ChiranjeevSingh, Skywalker18, egmat

In the above question, Isn't the "or" in option E Illogical? Shouldn't "And" come instead of "or" because "driving automobiles and sleeping in tents " is eliminating both the bottlenecks?

In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found that driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.


E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the
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If we replace the "or" with an "and" in option (E), we have: "... many vacationers found that driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables and the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels."

Does that mean that we lump "the formalities..." into a parallel list with "passenger trains and railroad timetables"? In other words, are we talking about 1) the restrictions of passenger trains, 2) the restrictions of railroad timetables, and 3) the restrictions of the formalities/expenses/impersonality of hotels? Sure, that interpretation doesn't make much sense, but the meaning is clearer if we use "or".

The use of "or" clearly separates the two lists:

  • (1) the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables
  • (2) the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.

Also, the idiomatic structure "without X or Y" is perfectly acceptable ("The pirate couldn't survive on the island without food or water.").

I hope that helps!
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 12 Feb 2021, 13:50
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found that driving automobiles and sleeping in tents allowed them to enjoy nature close at hand and tour at their own pace, with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the formalities, expenses, and impersonality of hotels.


A. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the

-“with none of” is wordier than “without”
-the “or” signals that vacationers have an option of “none of the restrictions…” OR “the formalities expenses, and impersonality of hotels”…that’s totally awkward

B. with none of the restrictions of passenger trains, railroad timetables, nor the

-“with none of” is wordier than “without”
-an article ‘the’ is needed before “formalities”

C. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables nor the

-‘nor’ is incorrect
-an article ‘the’ is needed before “formalities”

D. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or with the

-the “or” signals that vacationers have an option of “none of the restrictions…” OR “the formalities expenses, and impersonality of hotels”…that’s totally awkward

E. without the restrictions of passenger trains and railroad timetables or the
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 15 Jul 2021, 23:27
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Is the "neither ...nor" word pairing set in the GMAT stone? I mean can there be correct sentences in which ONLY 'nor' is used? If 'nor' can be used independently, should we consider it as a parallelism trigger?

Also, could you explain what is the red flag in option C? I crossed out C because of a missing 'the' after 'nor'. But what if there was a 'the' after 'nor'?

Also 'or' is a parallelism trigger, so in option E is 'without' the common stem for both the "the..." phrases?
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 13 Aug 2021, 07:22
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mikemcgarry
Is the "neither ...nor" word pairing set in the GMAT stone? I mean can there be correct sentences in which ONLY 'nor' is used? If 'nor' can be used independently, should we consider it as a parallelism trigger?

Also, could you explain what is the red flag in option C? I crossed out C because of a missing 'the' after 'nor'. But what if there was a 'the' after 'nor'?

...
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Here's an example of an official answer that uses "nor" without "neither":

    "One report concludes that many schools do not have, nor are they likely to have, enough computers to use them effectively."

This example demonstrates (1) that "nor" CAN in fact be used without "neither" and (2) that "nor" is not necessarily a parallelism trigger:

  • Here "nor" is used to introduce an additional negative statement (i.e. "The band's new album was not popular, nor was it well-received by critics.")
  • Yes, the word order is a bit funky here. Luckily, this construction is rarely used on the GMAT, so it's not worth worrying about too much.
  • The takeaway: (1) if you see a "neither... nor" construction, you definitely want to check for parallelism; (2) if you see "nor" by itself, look for other decision points.

In choice (C), however, "nor" is not used to introduce an additional negative statement. Instead, it is incorrectly used in the construction "without X nor Y." Depending on the context, it should be "without X OR Y" or "without X AND Y" -- there is no reason to use a "nor" here.

Jue

...

Also 'or' is a parallelism trigger, so in option E is 'without' the common stem for both the "the..." phrases?
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Yes, exactly! For more on the parallelism in choice (E), check out this post.
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 16 Oct 2022, 04:20
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mikemcgarry
Is the "neither ...nor" word pairing set in the GMAT stone? I mean can there be correct sentences in which ONLY 'nor' is used? If 'nor' can be used independently, should we consider it as a parallelism trigger?

Also, could you explain what is the red flag in option C? I crossed out C because of a missing 'the' after 'nor'. But what if there was a 'the' after 'nor'?

...
Here's an example of an official answer that uses "nor" without "neither":

    "One report concludes that many schools do not have, nor are they likely to have, enough computers to use them effectively."

This example demonstrates (1) that "nor" CAN in fact be used without "neither" and (2) that "nor" is not necessarily a parallelism trigger:

  • Here "nor" is used to introduce an additional negative statement (i.e. "The band's new album was not popular, nor was it well-received by critics.")
  • Yes, the word order is a bit funky here. Luckily, this construction is rarely used on the GMAT, so it's not worth worrying about too much.
  • The takeaway: (1) if you see a "neither... nor" construction, you definitely want to check for parallelism; (2) if you see "nor" by itself, look for other decision points.

In choice (C), however, "nor" is not used to introduce an additional negative statement. Instead, it is incorrectly used in the construction "without X nor Y." Depending on the context, it should be "without X OR Y" or "without X AND Y" -- there is no reason to use a "nor" here.

Jue

...

Also 'or' is a parallelism trigger, so in option E is 'without' the common stem for both the "the..." phrases?
Yes, exactly! For more on the parallelism in choice (E), check out this post.
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Hi GMATNinja sir,

I agree with your explanation that neither can be used without nor but I have one doubt regarding this.

If we are using "nor" without "neither" then is it necessary that "NOR SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED BY INDEPENDENT CLAUSE" ?

Also in your example "are they likely to have" is an independent clause or not? As per my understanding, it is not because it is in question form.

sayantanc2k GMATNinjaTwo ChiranjeevSingh AjiteshArun : Experts please help

Thank you
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 17 Oct 2022, 00:08
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If we are using "nor" without "neither" then is it necessary that "NOR SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED BY INDEPENDENT CLAUSE" ?
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Hi a123bansal,

No, we don't have to use only independent clauses after nor. For example, if we're introducing a negative with a not, we have many options after nor. Just keep in mind that nor + {noun, adjective, verb form, prepositional phrase...} is not very common, and may even be considered too formal.

1. He did not take the GMAT, nor the GRE. ← Some people would consider the comma necessary, but I don't recommend looking at this as an absolute in all situations involving nor.

Here are more examples, from other sources. (2) is from an article linked to by another expert, and (3) and (4) are from dictionaries:

2. Santa will not permit naughty behavior nor even consider bringing presents. [source]

3. She did not return that night, nor the night after. [source]

4. I can't make head nor tail of these instructions on the packet. [source]
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 17 Oct 2022, 04:35
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a123bansal
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Jue
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mikemcgarry
Is the "neither ...nor" word pairing set in the GMAT stone? I mean can there be correct sentences in which ONLY 'nor' is used? If 'nor' can be used independently, should we consider it as a parallelism trigger?

Also, could you explain what is the red flag in option C? I crossed out C because of a missing 'the' after 'nor'. But what if there was a 'the' after 'nor'?

...
Here's an example of an official answer that uses "nor" without "neither":

    "One report concludes that many schools do not have, nor are they likely to have, enough computers to use them effectively."

This example demonstrates (1) that "nor" CAN in fact be used without "neither" and (2) that "nor" is not necessarily a parallelism trigger:

  • Here "nor" is used to introduce an additional negative statement (i.e. "The band's new album was not popular, nor was it well-received by critics.")
  • Yes, the word order is a bit funky here. Luckily, this construction is rarely used on the GMAT, so it's not worth worrying about too much.
  • The takeaway: (1) if you see a "neither... nor" construction, you definitely want to check for parallelism; (2) if you see "nor" by itself, look for other decision points.

In choice (C), however, "nor" is not used to introduce an additional negative statement. Instead, it is incorrectly used in the construction "without X nor Y." Depending on the context, it should be "without X OR Y" or "without X AND Y" -- there is no reason to use a "nor" here.

Jue

...

Also 'or' is a parallelism trigger, so in option E is 'without' the common stem for both the "the..." phrases?
Yes, exactly! For more on the parallelism in choice (E), check out this post.

Hi GMATNinja sir,

I agree with your explanation that neither can be used without nor but I have one doubt regarding this.

If we are using "nor" without "neither" then is it necessary that "NOR SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED BY INDEPENDENT CLAUSE" ?

Also in your example "are they likely to have" is an independent clause or not? As per my understanding, it is not because it is in question form.

sayantanc2k GMATNinjaTwo ChiranjeevSingh AjiteshArun : Experts please help

Thank you
Show more

Hello a123bansal,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, no; so long as parallelism is maintained, "nor" does not need to be followed by an independent clause.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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In the early part of the twentieth century, many vacationers found tha 27 Nov 2024, 06:03
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