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There was great debate among Greek historians whether the

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There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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There was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

(A) was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated

(B) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated

C) was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated

(D) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

(E) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validates
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Last edited by daagh on 21 Oct 2010, 19:49, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The city of Troy [#permalink]

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New post 21 Oct 2010, 03:47
Here the choices B,D and E are taken into account because of the apt usage of 'had been'...

Had been is to be used to describe a timeline that preceeds the general/overall timeline of the sentence
(Pardon me for the gramatically incorrect sentence above :? :? could'nt express it any better)

Here E can be ruled as the last part of the sentence uses present tense ('validates').

Left out with B and D.

IMO B is better than D because of the usage of 'had been' before 'figment of fiction'. Here this usage is wrong because this unnecessarily/incorrectly introduces a third timeline.

Can the Verbal experts here point out the exact reason D is wrong if it indeed is so?

OA??

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Re: The city of Troy [#permalink]

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Debate among Greek historians was before the discovery -> past perfect must be used. A and C are out.
whether A or B -> A||B . B and D are out.
I will highlight mistakes below.

My pick is E.

There was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

(A) was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated

(B) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated

C) was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated

(D) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

(E) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validates
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Let us think of the rationale behind this exercise of tense usage. There are some events and let us put them in the order of chronology

1. The existence of troy –is the earliest event
2. The figment of imagination- same time as of its existence
3. The subsequent debate among the Greek- later than the previous two factors
4. The discovery of the architect – event after the debate
5. The discovery’s impact until date marked by the word - hitherto -

The first four events happened in the past and ended in the past. As per grammar and custom, the last of these four events i.e. the discovery by the architect entails a simple past while all the three earlier ones entail past perfects.

The last event of validation originated in the past and continues until date and hence needs a present perfect.

The one choice that stands all these parameters is- D

An alternate thinking is to assert that the debate by the Greeks, The city’s real existence or it being a figment of imagination were all events that happened at the same time. Even granting such a thought, those events clearly occurred before the Architect’s finding. So they will still need to be marked by past perfects.


We can not use a universal simple present for validation because we do not know whether this discovery is the final chapter in this episode. Tomorrow there may be another discovery that might damn this one. So – validates - is not appropriate

There is some doubt in the usage of -Troy ever existed or it was a figment- whether the pronoun, - it - should be mentioned. Since the subject is -the city of Troy –for both the verbs- existed or was a figment, using – it – again turns redundant.

The OA is D. I am editing the passage to mark the OA under spoiler
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Re: The city of Troy [#permalink]

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@Pkit: Thank you for your kind words. As I have already pointed out, all my exercises are my personal creations, taking some common passages and building a relevant GMAT error into it for the sake of training my students.

To answer you query reg: maintenance of parallelism, I do agree that they must be parallel in essence, not necessarily verbatim, provided what is missing is elliptically understood. Say for instance,

I do not know whether I should sing or dance.

Here the phrase -I should - in the second part is understood and therefore the sentence is correct, even though the phrase is not mentioned in the passage.
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Re: There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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New post 26 Sep 2015, 08:38
There are two actions here
1. great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction for some time
2. noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy,
a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

Great debate happened before and until the discovery.
so past perfect tense is needed here.


Given sentence uses simple past tense and therefore is an incorrect choice.
A, and C contain the same error.


Options also contain whether X or Y, where X and Y are parallel.
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction,
    or
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction

C. was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
past perfect tense is used wrongly to depict that discovery is the earlier one of the two past events.

E. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validates
present tense verb validates gives a wrong meaning as the action took place in the past.

left with B and D.

B. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated .

D. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

I chose B over D.
Can someone explain how can we use
  • present perfect tense has validated for discovery and
  • past perfect tense for whether x or y idiom.

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New post 26 Sep 2015, 09:43
Great debate happened before and until the discovery.
so past perfect tense is needed here.


Given sentence uses simple past tense and therefore is an incorrect choice.
A, and C contain the same error.


Options also contain whether X or Y, where X and Y are parallel.
which of these two is correct and why?
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction,
    or
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction


C is wrong since past perfect tense is used wrongly to depict that discovery is the earlier one of the two past events.

E is incorrect since present tense verb validates gives a wrong meaning as the action took place in the past.

left with B and D.

I chose B over D.
Can you explain how can we use
  • present perfect tense has validated for discovery and
  • past perfect tense for whether x or y idiom.

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#Top150 SC: There was great debate among Greek historians [#permalink]

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New post 20 Oct 2015, 11:19
Mechmeera wrote:
There are two actions here
1. great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction for some time
2. noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy,
a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

Great debate happened before and until the discovery.
so past perfect tense is needed here.


Given sentence uses simple past tense and therefore is an incorrect choice.
A, and C contain the same error.


Options also contain whether X or Y, where X and Y are parallel.
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction,
    or
    Whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction

C. was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
past perfect tense is used wrongly to depict that discovery is the earlier one of the two past events.

E. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validates
present tense verb validates gives a wrong meaning as the action took place in the past.

left with B and D.

B. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated .

D. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

I chose B over D.
Can someone explain how can we use
  • present perfect tense has validated for discovery and
  • past perfect tense for whether x or y idiom.



Even though initially even I picked option B over D

But if checking the sequence of events

D makes more sense

Event1: great debate
Event 2:whether the city of Troy ever existed
Event 3: it was a figment of fiction

Event 4:until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site

IMO event 4 happened after Event 1,2,3 so usage of had is justified
further effects of this discovery are still present so has is used.

Experts please pitch in , If there is some flaw in my reasoning

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#Top150 SC: There was great debate among Greek historians [#permalink]

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Here it is very important to understand the timeline of the happenings. If I understand this rigth, then first there was the great debate untile some Schliemann discovered a site and this discovery has validatet (until today) ... so at the end, we need present perfect. At the beginning we need past perfect and in the middle the simple past. Only D fulfils this. Do not really have to look after the other errors. However, the constructions I do not like in the other sentences are marked yellow.


There was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

A. was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated (wrong tenses, we need a present perfect at the end, it is still valid today)

B. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated (wrong tenses, we need a present perfect at the end, it is still valid today)

C. was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated (wrong tenses, we need a present perfect at the end, it is still valid today)

D. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated, correct tenses

E. had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validates (wrong tenses, we need a present perfect at the end)
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(D) had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

I can't make myself agree with the OA choice "D"as the sentence, discovery that has validated is in present participle form whereas the sentence following past participle form...

can anyone please explain how the sentence showing correct use of tense...
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Re: There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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"That has validated" is absolutely correct in "D" because at the end of the sentence "hitherto" is mentioned which implies "till date". Hence although the discovery was made in the past it is applicable even now. This is an example of past action coming into present. Hence, "has" is perfect out here.

Hope this helps.
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Re: There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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New post 29 Dec 2015, 03:31
The use of past perfect in D isn't actually justified. There's no need to identify that Troy had been a fiction before something else happened. Either it was a fiction or it wasn't. It didn't stop being a fiction at some point. In fact, even "had been great debate" is only correct if the intended meaning is that the debate ended with Schliemann's discovery. If only "many people" (not most or all experts) believe that this is Troy, it seems the debate continues.
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New post 31 Dec 2015, 01:43
Hi Shiridip,

"Had" is not just used for double past. If there are multiple actions in the past each preceding the other all the actions would use had except the last one. Hence in this case "A" cannot be the answer. Also, remember that “had” is the past tense of “have/has” – when “have/has” mean possession (eg. I have 2 books.) or eating/drinking (eg., I have a glass of milk every day.). So, in "had had", the second “had” is not related to double past, it is the past tense of “have/has”. Example: We had had that car for 10 years before it broke down.
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New post 05 Sep 2016, 01:32
if D has been given like this- 'had been great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction,until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated,

is it still correct to chose D?

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Re: There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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Merged topics. Please, search before posting questions!
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Re: There was great debate among Greek historians whether the [#permalink]

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There was great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance along with its literary eminence hitherto

Timeline :
a) Existence of the city of troy and whether it was a figment of fiction.
b) Great debate.
c) Archaeologist discovery.

I have learned (pl correct me if I???m wrong) that whenever we use words like before, after, from, until etc, to relate 2 events in past then we can omit past perfect form.
So why in this particular Q we need to use past perfect form ???had been great debate??? as in Option D.

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