Admissions Advice (D in Calc)

Question

OK, so here's my deal. I was planning on attending Duke law school, but I've realized that my interests are much more in business. I studied Econ and English at a top 5 public undergrad, got a 172 on the LSAT but do not have a GMAT. I have 3 years work experience already and plan on getting at least one more year before applying.

Here is my worry. I had a 3.3 in my Econ courses and a B+ in my one accounting class, but, unfortunately, I decided to take Calc 2 after not having taken a math class since AP Cal three years before (I got a 5 and was feeling cocky). I was taking 18 hours of courses that semester and meant the class to be audited, as I was taking it Pass/D/Fail, but I was .1 away from getting the Pass, and instead got the D. If I get over a 700 on the GMAT, can I get into a top business school, or will that D be a barrier?

My work experience is in helping manage my family's business, which has almost 300 employees. It is not sexy or rigorously analytical like consulting. Is it still considered OK work experience?

I'm asking all this now because I'd rather go to Duke, a top law school, than get an MBA from a mediocre school. Given my type of work experience, my 3.5 GPA (which includes a D in my one real math class and 3.3 in my econ major and one accounting class), will I be able to get into a top MBA program? What GMAT will I need to get in?

These are the schools I'm particularly interested in: Harvard (obviously no chance here), Penn, Northwestern, Berkeley, Columbia, NYU, Yale, Duke, UVA, Michigan, Texas, UNC

Thanks so much for any advice you can offer.

K86 · Answer

Hey man,

I saw your post and I remember I was in a similar boat three years ago. I graduated from college and I had a 170 on my LSAT and was admitted into Gtown, UVA and Northwestern Law Schools (rejected from Duke Law though). I had a 3.44 GPA from a top 50ish private undergrad. My first year in college, I had a C- in a chemistry class and a C- in an engineering class.

I recently took my GMAT and did ok (compared to my LSAT score) 690.

I too believe that my interests are better aligned with business as opposed to Law School, even though, arguably, a top 14 law school is better than a top 20 MBA. I did not like the lifestyle of a lawyer and more entrepreneurial in nature, so I am thrilled with the idea of going for an MBA as opposed to a JD.

I do not think my low grades in a few classes hindered my ability to get into a top business schools. I think my GMAT is my main liability.

What seems more important is your leadership experience at work, rationale for an MBA at a particular school, GMAT qualifying score (arguably 700+, but 680+ is usually sufficient) and decent UG grades, which you have with a 3.5. You could also consider taking a calculus community college course to allay adcoms concerns about your quant skills.

Full disclosure, I am not an expert in the process so take my words with a grain of salt. I was admitted into Cornell, Stern and UCLA on fellowship, wait listed at Duke and waiting to hear back from LBS, Yale, Columbia and rejected from Tuck.

Let me know what decision you end up making!

Good Luck!

cheetarah1980 · Answer

I have an F on my transcript (as well as a D) and I'm in at Kellogg. Knock out the GMAT and maybe write the optional essay. That one D won't keep you out of any of the schools on your list.

MDF · Answer

Was the D during your Junior/Senior year? If it was that late in your undergrad, it may be a good idea to retake it at a community college.

But imo, it's probably not that big of a deal if you ace the GMAT. I got 3 Fs my freshman year of undergrad (one was even in a math course). I addressed the circumstances in my optional essays and still got into a couple top schools.

AllTheWine · Answer

Guys, thanks a lot for the input. That is VERY encouraging. To be honest, I always preferred business to law, but some people had me convinced it was a lost cause given my D. I think I will retake it just to show I can (and pray that I can in fact do well at it...). What kind of work experience did you guys have? Do you think working as a manager/officer for a small family business of ~300 employees is sufficient to get into the schools I listed? Man this is encouraging. I think I'll go start studying for the GMAT. Also, any suggestions on schools that are good for entrepreneurship and running a company, as opposed to consulting or I-banking?

MDF · Answer

Really? From what everyone tells me, law schools are way more obsessed with pristine academic performance than business schools.

AllTheWine · Answer

Yeah, but I thought business schools cared more about performance in math and would forgive a low overall GPA if quantitative skills were strong. Law wants a high GPA but doesn't care what the classes are. That's how I understood it anyways. Either way, I hope you guys are right.

novanative · Answer

Got a D in Physics 101 back in sophomore year of college now almost 9 years ago... i just let the GMAT, my B+ in Calc 1 from freshman year, quant analysis I had to do in my jobs, and an optional essay downplay that D and let everything else say that I know quant skills.

tfincham86 · Answer

I got a D in Calc 2 in Freshman year of UG. I did well on the GMAT and pointed to a few more quant classes I excelled in and addressed some special circumstances I had in the option essay.

I was worried it might hold me back, but I've got at least 1 admit so far so don't sweat it too much.

novanative · Answer

That is correct, law schools are more concerned with undergrad performance than business schools. One D probably wouldn't totally ding you at a reasonably well ranked school, but unless you have something really extraordinary, a D is the kiss of death from getting into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, and Columbia. If you're a non-trad to a law school, like at least 10 years out of college, then perhaps grades won't matter so much at that point because you have your professional experience matters more.

AllTheWine · Answer

Just to clarify, novanative, you mean that in regard to law schools, not b-schools, right? In regard to law schools, yeah, that's pretty accurate. I'd throw Chicago on that list as well. I got waitlsted at NYU and into everything ranked 7 - 15.

novanative · Answer

Yes, that's with law schools. If the median GPA after the LSAC credential standardization is applied is 3.7 or higher, really there's no room for a D, or even a C on a transcript. Obviously at the top law schools, most of them have median LSAT's at least at 170 if not higher, though it looks like Berkeley Law and Cornell have remained lower. 170 is about 98 percentile or so, and in GMAT terms, that's at around a 750.

I would think GPA is also higher for them because a larger proportion of incoming students are straight from college for the "T-14" except for Northwestern because of their strict preference for those with at least 2 yrs out of college , but even there the median GPA is 3.8.

AllTheWine · Answer

OK, so since people don't think the D matters that much for b-school, with 3 years work experience and a 3.5, what GMAT do you think I need to get into Virginia, Duke, Texas? If I want to primarily anage a small-mid sized family company and maybe start my own company, do you have any suggestions for schools? I'm not interested in finance, investment banking, or placement into a major corporation. How about Vanderbilt? Yale?

AllTheWine · Answer

I know it's been a long time since I started this initial discussion, but if anyone has any additional information or thoughts, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

prorsum · Answer

I would retake the course at a local university asap. Put that in your application as an education field. Highlight that in you took this course in the optional essay. Then i think you hedged your risk.

Thats what I'd do.

Chupacabra · Answer

I don't think it is that big of a deal. I got a C in Cal 2 (at a community college), but I still got a 3.8 overall at a top public university. I took the class and didn't realize it would be on my transcript so I just made sure I passed it. As long as you've done good in your other quant classes and do well on the GMAT you should be fine.

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