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GmatKnightTutor
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I have a doubt, in option A , including and among them seem redundant, could this also be a possible error in the sentence?

Probably fair to say INCLUDING is not required in that construction.
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dcummins
I know you tagged a few mods, but I'm going to try answer this as

Here's (a)
(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

"the threat" = a noun
"the declining sales" = complex gerund

I'll approach this based on rules, which state the following regarding complex gerunds:
Rule: Complex gerunds can be parallel to either another complex gerund or action nouns
For example:
The raising of the white flag is as important as the lowering of weapons. (Both complex gerund phrases)

Or

The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)

We always prefer action nouns to complex gerund phrases.
Incorrect: The raising of the white flag and the releasing of prisoners are signs of peace.
Correct: The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)


I'm no expert, but unless i'm mistaken about "the threat" merely being a noun then I'm correct about stating that these two items in (A) are not parallel.
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Hi dcummins - Why do you consider "the declining sales" as a complex gerund ?

Declining per my understanding is NOT a noun but Declining is an adjective

Sales is the noun in the phrase " the declining sales"

Thus i think we have 2 contcrete nouns
-- threat
and
-- sales

Thoughts ?
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VeritasKarishma
I usually ignore idioms too since they are often smokescreens.
(A) is incorrect. Use of both "including" and "among them" is incorrect.

Either you say "... numerous challenges ... including A and B"
or you say "numerous challenges ... among them A and B"

As for parallelism, the challenges are "threat ...from suit " and "decline in sales ...".
These are the ones in parallel.

"threat from declining sales" isn't very logical.
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Hi VeritasKarishma - In option A - the idiom sales for is definitely wrong

But, my question is on the parallelism in option A.

Are the X and Y markers (in underline below) in option A, really not parallel (either in terms of grammar or in terms of meaning, not parallel ?)

I read option A as

......threat from X and the declining sales of Y

Can we really eliminate option A by saying -- threat from X and declining sales of Y are NOT parallel ?

I think both of the sentences are parallel

......threat from X and the declining sales of Y
vs.
......threat from X and the decline in sales of Y
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VeritasKarishma
I usually ignore idioms too since they are often smokescreens.
(A) is incorrect. Use of both "including" and "among them" is incorrect.

Either you say "... numerous challenges ... including A and B"
or you say "numerous challenges ... among them A and B"

As for parallelism, the challenges are "threat ...from suit " and "decline in sales ...".
These are the ones in parallel.

"threat from declining sales" isn't very logical.

Hi VeritasKarishma - In option A - the idiom sales for is definitely wrong

But, my question is on the parallelism in option A.

Are the X and Y markers (in underline below) in option A, really not parallel (either in terms of grammar or in terms of meaning, not parallel ?)

I read option A as

......threat from X and the declining sales of Y

Can we really eliminate option A by saying -- threat from X and declining sales of Y are NOT parallel ?

I think both of the sentences are parallel

......threat from X and the declining sales of Y
vs.
......threat from X and the decline in sales of Y
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"threat" and "decline" are better matched as nouns. Hence, when you have an option which gives you those two, it will be preferable.
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VeritasKarishma

"threat" and "decline" are better matched as nouns. Hence, when you have an option which gives you those two, it will be preferable.
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Thanks VeritasKarishma - just so i understand

By itself - Would you consider option A NOT parallel or you would not be comfortable saying that ?

I think i have read action nouns can only be parallel to other action nouns
OR
action nouns can be parallel to complex gerunds.

In A : Threat is an action noun whereas sales of Y is a concrete noun. This mis-match is why A is not parallel ?

option B -- Threat and decline in sales are both action nouns

option A) ......threat from X and the declining sales of Y
vs.
option B) ......threat from X and the decline in sales of Y
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jabhatta2
VeritasKarishma

"threat" and "decline" are better matched as nouns. Hence, when you have an option which gives you those two, it will be preferable.

Thanks VeritasKarishma - just so i understand

By itself - Would you consider option A NOT parallel or you would not be comfortable saying that ?

I think i have read action nouns can only be parallel to other action nouns
OR
action nouns can be parallel to complex gerunds.

In A : Threat is an action noun whereas sales of Y is a concrete noun. This mis-match is why A is not parallel ?

option B -- Threat and decline in sales are both action nouns

option A) ......threat from X and the declining sales of Y
vs.
option B) ......threat from X and the decline in sales of Y
Show more

jabhatta2 - I will only consider comparisons, not stand alone cases because they are irrelevant. Even if I make 10 so called "errors" in one sentence, you might be able to understand it accurately and that is the sole purpose of language. Hence, with time and geography and as per context, what is an error and what is not keeps changing. So I will only look for the best option.

We begin with "threat", an abstract noun on one side and "declining", a modifier on the other. I am unhappy with it. A "decline" is also an abstract noun and it fits perfectly. Hence, I ignore declining sales.
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Hi,

Can someone explain the 'these' in C for me?

I know that demonstrative pronoun must be followed by a noun.
but 'these' can be referred to 'the challenges' no?

do you need 'challenges' following 'these'?

eg.
a. Included among (I know this is wrong) these...
vs
b. Included among these 'challenges'....

if we were to ignore the included among, is a wrong and b is correct?
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imksloh

The problem with "these" is not that it doesn't clearly refer to "challenges." It clearly does. If there were a question of the intended meaning, then sure, adding "challenges" would help, and we see that kind of split all the time in SC. But here, the problem is in the modifier structure. You can see this by cutting out "these" entirely: "There was a presentation on the challenges, included the threat." We can't use "included" here; we would need "including" if we wanted to write the modifier this way. In that case, though, we'd be saying that the challenges include the threat. If we said "including among these," we'd be saying "the challenges include among the challenges the threat," and that makes no sense.
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Hi DmitryFarber

Many thanks for the explanation.
Yeah I understand that the included among is weong. Hence I said if we ignore the included among and just look at the pronoun ‘these’.

My question here would be many people seem to cross off the answer just based on the incorrect use of ‘these’. and they mention ‘these’ needs to be followed by a noun.

Demonstrative adjective yes. but what about demonstrative pronoun. does it need to be followed by a noun? for example, this question.

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imksloh
Hi DmitryFarber

Many thanks for the explanation.
Yeah I understand that the included among is weong. Hence I said if we ignore the included among and just look at the pronoun ‘these’.

My question here would be many people seem to cross off the answer just based on the incorrect use of ‘these’. and they mention ‘these’ needs to be followed by a noun.

Demonstrative adjective yes. but what about demonstrative pronoun. does it need to be followed by a noun? for example, this question.

Posted from my mobile device
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Hello imksloh,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, demonstrative pronouns do not have to be followed by a noun; they can stand alone.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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imksloh

So yeah, we don't need "challenges" after "these," although we do sometimes need that kind of clarification. But it's wrong to use "these" at all in this context, so it's hard to say that either choice you offered would be correct.
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mymba99
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.


(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

(B) which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of

(C) included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for

(D) among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of

(E) among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
Show more

Don't we need verb in the ''among phrase'' such as ''among them were the threat.....''. I found that the lack of verb makes that sentence incomplete.

Also what does it mean ''facing the company'' in nonunderlined portions, shouldn't it be ''faced by company''?

Thank You
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VIGHNESHKAMATH
mymba99
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.


(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

(B) which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of

(C) included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for

(D) among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of

(E) among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Don't we need verb in the ''among phrase'' such as ''among them were the threat.....''. I found that the lack of verb makes that sentence incomplete.

Also what does it mean ''facing the company'' in nonunderlined portions, shouldn't it be ''faced by company''?

Thank You
Vighnesh
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Hello VIGHNESHKAMATH,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your queries, the use of an active verb or participle is not needed in the "among them" phrase; the use of a verb is implied in this case.

Further, ''facing the company'' broadly means the same thing as "faced by the company", except the use of the present participle ("verb+ing" - "facing" in this sentence) implies that the action took place over a period of time.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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How is among these and among them different from each other.

ExpertGlobal may kindly guide.
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(A) including among them the threat from a rival???s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

is there really a problem in the preposition used above. Meaning wise I find no ambiguity

Also, in choice D] '' among them the threat of......'' feels like an incomplete statement. As if a verb is missing i.e '' among them ARE the threat of..''

How do I explain myself that this is right choice!
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himanshu0123
(A) including among them the threat from a rival???s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

is there really a problem in the preposition used above. Meaning wise I find no ambiguity

Also, in choice D] '' among them the threat of......'' feels like an incomplete statement. As if a verb is missing i.e '' among them ARE the threat of..''

How do I explain myself that this is right choice!
Show more

Hello himanshu0123,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, ''among them the threat of......'' does not require a verb because it is a modifying phrase acting on "challenges facing the company".

Further, the use of "threat from" vs "threat of" introduces a subtle change in meaning; "threat from a...patent-infringement suit" refers to the potential harm that the suit may cause, and "threat of a...patent-infringement suit" refers to the possibility that the suit will occur.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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himanshu0123
(A) including among them the threat from a rival???s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

is there really a problem in the preposition used above. Meaning wise I find no ambiguity

Also, in choice D] '' among them the threat of......'' feels like an incomplete statement. As if a verb is missing i.e '' among them ARE the threat of..''

How do I explain myself that this is right choice!
Show more
The phrase "including among them" is redundant. If something is included, it's among the things it's included with, right?

And I feel your pain with (D).

I could write "Tim has many phobias, including a fear of rubber spiders and a fear of small children." And I could write "Tim has many phobias, among them a fear of rubber spiders and a fear of small children."

In both sentences, the part after the comma is modifying the "phobias," giving examples. This type of construction is fine -- you don't a need verb within the prepositional phrase.

Generally, if it feels like something is missing, but the logic of the sentence seems to work, hang on to the answer choice and see if you can find more definitive issues in other options.

I hope that clears things up!
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.

Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?


Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
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egmat
So are you trying to say including should be modifying the noun entity "numerous challenges" but here it modifies the noun entity "the company"?
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In answer choice C, contrary to the explanation, the use of (comma) + “included” does seem problematic. This kind of construction leads to an invalid “run on”-type of sentence structure.

ex: *“The winners received various prizes, included among these a gift certificate and free tickets to next year’s game.”

What follows this comma is not a proper modifier structure, even if we were to insert the referenced noun.

ex: *“The winners received various prizes, included among these prizes a gift certificate and free tickets to next year’s game.”

A fragment is attached to an independent clause with just a (comma).

What follows the comma would need to be given a finite verb and connected to the sentence as another independent clause. (With a semicolon or a comma + coordinating conjunction)

Otherwise, “included” would need to be changed to “includING”.

To say that “included properly modifies the preceding noun” and that this part is “correct” seems problematic.

Further, the use of a (comma) + “which” modifier in B does NOT convey the same meaning as a different version of B that includes (comma) + “including”.

B: Investors were told about challenges facing the company, which include X and Y.

Modified B: Investors were told about challenges facing the company, including X and Y.

In the 1st (B), the use of the (comma) + “which” implies that the challenges are just X and Y.

As a nonessential noun modifier, we are saying that the investors were told about challenges. And by the way, these challenges include X and Y (and that’s it).

However, in modified B, the use of (comma) + “including” does not convey this meaning.

The Preposition “including”, following a (comma), conveys the meaning that there is a group of things, and among these things are X and Y.

X and Y are two such examples that are part of this group of things, and there may or may not be more.

So unlike the other version, the conveyed meaning is that there could be more challenges than just X and Y.


egmat
kinjiGC
AbhiJ
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.

Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?


Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 02 Oct 2022, 00:36
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Stated much more eloquently by daagh

daagh
sarath
1. 'These' cannot stand as a stand-alone demonstrative pronoun in formal writing. Hence, example 2 is out.
One has to be clear about the status of the word 'included"; if it is a verb, we must make sure who included it. There is no answer for that. Alternately and absurdly, it may mean that the investors heard a presentation and included these challenges.
If 'included' was a past participle modifier, then because of the subject pronoun 'these'. We must follow it with a verb such as 'included' among these was x… as well as Y.
On the contrary, we know for certain that 'including' is a present participle and that 'them' is an object pronoun. As such we do not need a verb for the verb+ing modifier.
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