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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on

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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 20 May 2019, 04:32
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adkikani wrote:
generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.
I don't like idioms either! They don't test what the GMAT should test. :)

As for your question, in that option, two nouns are parallel to each other:

... the numerous challenges facing the company... among them (a) the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and (b) the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip

So the two challenges they've mentioned are the threat from a lawsuit and the declining sales (declining is an adjective for sales).
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 20 May 2019, 23:42
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adkikani wrote:
Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.


generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.


I usually ignore idioms too since they are often smokescreens.
(A) is incorrect. Use of both "including" and "among them" is incorrect.

Either you say "... numerous challenges ... including A and B"
or you say "numerous challenges ... among them A and B"

As for parallelism, the challenges are "threat ...from suit " and "decline in sales ...".
These are the ones in parallel.

"threat from declining sales" isn't very logical.
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 15 Aug 2019, 08:31
dcummins wrote:
adkikani wrote:
Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.


generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.



I know you tagged a few mods, but I'm going to try answer this as

Here's (a)
(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

"the threat" = a noun
"the declining sales" = complex gerund

I'll approach this based on rules, which state the following regarding complex gerunds:
Rule: Complex gerunds can be parallel to either another complex gerund or action nouns
For example:
The raising of the white flag is as important as the lowering of weapons. (Both complex gerund phrases)

Or

The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)

We always prefer action nouns to complex gerund phrases.
Incorrect: The raising of the white flag and the releasing of prisoners are signs of peace.
Correct: The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)


I'm no expert, but unless i'm mistaken about "the threat" merely being a noun then I'm correct about stating that these two items in (A) are not parallel.


Hi experts , i think

1) threat (abstract noun) can be parallel to the decline in sales ( which is action noun) ( but not to declining sales )... am i right?

2.) only if concrete noun is present, then we cannot make these a parallel.. as that is always parallels with concrete noun .. am i right?

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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 26 Nov 2019, 04:41
mymba99 wrote:
In that case, 'numerous challenges' is plural. So we need 'include' and not 'includes'.

I even thought what if the 'which' is pointing to 'presentation' and then 'includes' will be right...but later thought I was thinking too much.


egmat, Can you please explain on the above?

"facing the company" modifies "on the numerous challenges", which is prepositional phrase that modifies "Presentation".

Thus, can't "which" refer to presentation?
If I place the which next to presentation, I have to move a short phrase "facing the company" to the end. So, One of the exceptions is that a short phrase can come in between a modifier requiring TOUCH rule.

The below construction is quite awkward. 2 spots for which. both are awkward.

At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation[1. WHICH....] on the numerous challenges [2. WHICH...] facing the company

If i slash and burn, the essence of the WHICH Clause is this.
Presentation on the challenges includes the threat and declining sales.

Sounds good.
Would love to know where am i wrong in my logic
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 22 Dec 2019, 19:20
egmat wrote:
kinjiGC wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.


Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?



Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ


Hi, is include or including always exception or is it this case that makes it exception only for this question?
Thank you in advance1
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 15 Feb 2020, 00:18
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.


(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for – Either use including or use among them. Using both is incorrect. Threat from.. almost seems like the company is receiving threat from the suit itself. ‘sales of’ is better than ‘sales for’

(B) which includes the threat of a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of – more important than deciding whether ‘which’ modifies company or numerous challenges is deciding whether the verb ‘includes’ agrees in number with the subject. Challenges is the subject. SV error.

(C) included among these the threat from a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for – these cannot stand alone in a correct GMAT sentence. It needs to be followed by the word it is referring to.

(D) among them the threat of a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of – ‘among them’ acts as noun modifier. Numerous challenges – among them (numerous challenges) the threat … and the decline… Correct answer.

(E) among these the threat from a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for – ‘These’ again is a problem as mentioned in C. ‘sales of’ is better than ‘sales for’
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on  [#permalink]

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New post 16 Feb 2020, 19:12
egmat wrote:
kinjiGC wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.


Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?



Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ


thank you
"including" can modify the preceding clause or preceding noun grammatically. we use logic to find it is modifying a noun or a clause.
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Re: At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on   [#permalink] 16 Feb 2020, 19:12

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