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605-655 Level|   Modifiers|      
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 02 Feb 2017, 04:01
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VKat
Can we use "among them" to connect independent clause .. is it some kind of modifier?
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First, "among them" is NOT connecting an independent clause - there is NO clause after " among them", just two things: X (the threat) and Y (the decline) - without any verb.

"Among them X and Y" is a (special) noun modifier referring to "challenges".

One way to remember this construction is to identify the similarity of its structure with a subgroup modifier's (though they are not structurally identical, this connection may help in remembering the construction):

I have many games in my stock, many of them absolutely rubbish. ( If the latter part were an IC, the construction would be: Many of them ARE absolutely rubbish).

They heard of numerous challenges facing the company, among them X and Y. ( If the latter part were an IC, the construction would be: Among them ARE X and Y).

Now one step further:
If you can think a bit deeper, you would realise that this modifier is in fact a subgroup modifier:

many of them ( a subgroup of games) == X and Y ( a subgroup of challenges)
absolutely rubbish ( referring to "many of them") == among them (referring to " X and Y").

The only difference is that the subgroup and the part referring to it are flipped in the latter case.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 23 Feb 2017, 08:41
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
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A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
"sale for" is wrong grammatically

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
"which" here wrongly refers to the company

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
"these" is ambiguous

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
Correct

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"these" is ambiguous
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 26 Aug 2017, 10:51
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. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales of


included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit as well as a decline in sales of

Suppose these 2 options were available. Which one would be apt usage here?
Please provide some thoughts.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 26 Aug 2017, 11:34
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1. 'These' cannot stand as a stand-alone demonstrative pronoun in formal writing. Hence, example 2 is out.
One has to be clear about the status of the word 'included"; if it is a verb, we must make sure who included it. There is no answer for that. Alternately and absurdly, it may mean that the investors heard a presentation and included these challenges.
If 'included' was a past participle modifier, then because of the subject pronoun 'these'. We must follow it with a verb such as 'included' among these was x… as well as Y.
On the contrary, we know for certain that 'including' is a present participle and that 'them' is an object pronoun. As such we do not need a verb for the verb+ing modifier.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 29 Aug 2017, 06:23
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Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

(B) which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of

(C) included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for

(D) among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of

(E) among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
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GMATNinja, Could you help to explain "among them" since there are only two things listed in the question?

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Excerpt from Manhattan Prep Sentence Correction

The other distinction to remember is that you should use between only with two things or people.
When you are talking about three or more things or people, use among.

Wrong: I mediated a dispute BETWEEN Maya, Logan, and Kalen.
Right: I mediated a dispute AMONG Maya, Logan, and Kalen.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 30 Aug 2017, 18:19
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hazelnut, we aren't using "among" to relate those two items. We are saying that those two items exist "among" the full range of challenges. The sentence is basically saying "There are many challenges, and among those challenges we find these two."
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 31 Aug 2017, 04:28
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hazelnut


GMATNinja, Could you help to explain "among them" since there are only two things listed in the question?
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Hello hazelnut,

I will be glad to help you out with this one. :-)

The structure among them the threat of a rival’s multi billion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of... is a Noun Modifier that modifies the preceding noun the numerous challenges facing the company.

The term among them has been used to refer to the numerous challenges. The correct answer choice says that there are many problems. Among those many problems the two points mentioned in the sentence are most prominent.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 29 Nov 2018, 18:18
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daagh
There is a short cut to cross this long passage. ‘Sales for’ is bad idiom, and so skip 1, 3 and 5. ‘Sales of’ is good idiom. Between 2 and 4, choice 2 no doubt sticks to the relative pronoun touch rule – ‘which’ touches and means ‘company’ - but sadly flouts logical predication by not referring to ‘challenges’ and hence dump it. Merrily tread along 4.
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I have a doubt.
'threat of' vs 'threat from' does not make any sense in POE? Is it?
Is it valid to mean- threat of a person, rather than threat from a person?
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 29 Nov 2018, 23:01
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Both "threat from" and "threat of" can be used. They differ a bit in meaning. With "threat from," the following noun will be what's providing the threat. With "threat of," the following noun is the threat itself. Sometimes those two meanings can overlap.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 13 Apr 2019, 10:31
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.

Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?


Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
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In the original sentence is it correct to say -"presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company"?Facing is modifying challenges.It seems like challenges are facing the company.But actually the company is facing the challanges. So,won't it be more apt to say that challenges faced by the company?
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 13 Apr 2019, 18:53
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PrityPreet
In the original sentence is it correct to say -"presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company"?Facing is modifying challenges.It seems like challenges are facing the company.But actually the company is facing the challanges. So,won't it be more apt to say that challenges faced by the company?
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The verb face has multiple meanings. The two that we are interested in are:

1. "To confront and have to deal with": She faced her fears.
2. "To show itself and have to be dealt with": The challenges facing the company...

You can find a more precise definition here (B2 under "face verb (DEAL WITH)").
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 19 May 2019, 22:46
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Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
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generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 20 May 2019, 02:01
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Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.
Show more


I know you tagged a few mods, but I'm going to try answer this as

Here's (a)
(A) including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for

"the threat" = a noun
"the declining sales" = complex gerund

I'll approach this based on rules, which state the following regarding complex gerunds:
Rule: Complex gerunds can be parallel to either another complex gerund or action nouns
For example:
The raising of the white flag is as important as the lowering of weapons. (Both complex gerund phrases)

Or

The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)

We always prefer action nouns to complex gerund phrases.
Incorrect: The raising of the white flag and the releasing of prisoners are signs of peace.
Correct: The raising of the white flag and the release of prisoners are signs of peace. (Complex gerund phrase and action noun)


I'm no expert, but unless i'm mistaken about "the threat" merely being a noun then I'm correct about stating that these two items in (A) are not parallel.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 20 May 2019, 05:32
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generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.
Show more
I don't like idioms either! They don't test what the GMAT should test. :)

As for your question, in that option, two nouns are parallel to each other:

... the numerous challenges facing the company... among them (a) the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and (b) the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip

So the two challenges they've mentioned are the threat from a lawsuit and the declining sales (declining is an adjective for sales).
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 21 May 2019, 00:42
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Quote:
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

generis AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma

I see a considerable amount of discussions for the usage of correct idioms
(sales of vs sales for; and threat of vs threat for).
Being a non-native, I am not a huge fan of idioms ;)

Is parallelism correct in A?

I assume threat from forms the base for parallel list:
  • a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit
  • declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.

A noun element in first list can be parallel with verb-ing modifier of the second element.
Show more

I usually ignore idioms too since they are often smokescreens.
(A) is incorrect. Use of both "including" and "among them" is incorrect.

Either you say "... numerous challenges ... including A and B"
or you say "numerous challenges ... among them A and B"

As for parallelism, the challenges are "threat ...from suit " and "decline in sales ...".
These are the ones in parallel.

"threat from declining sales" isn't very logical.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 30 Jan 2021, 20:16
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woohoo921
For prepositional phrases, we generally need to look at the context and the specific wording to tell a noun modifier from an adverbial modifier. Comma usage isn't much of a clue for these. For instance if I say "I hid among the reeds," then "among the reeds" is an adverbial modifier. A comma would be incorrect there. However, I might use commas to separate out a noun modifier, even if those commas aren't strictly needed: "This was the one option, among several compelling choices, that I felt was most useful."

In the case of "among them," this is a slightly less common usage that basically just means "including."
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 31 Jan 2021, 06:51
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woohoo921
For prepositional phrases, we generally need to look at the context and the specific wording to tell a noun modifier from an adverbial modifier. Comma usage isn't much of a clue for these. For instance if I say "I hid among the reeds," then "among the reeds" is an adverbial modifier. A comma would be incorrect there. However, I might use commas to separate out a noun modifier, even if those commas aren't strictly needed: "This was the one option, among several compelling choices, that I felt was most useful."

In the case of "among them," this is a slightly less common usage that basically just means "including."
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Thank you...you are the BEST!!!
To confirm, "among them" will always be a noun modifier then similar to how including always refers to a noun? In this example, the "among them" refers to "the numerous challenges"?

Thank you again my friend :) DmitryFarber
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 31 Jan 2021, 18:16
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I'm glad I could help! Unfortunately, though, "always" tends to be a bit tough in language. "Among them" can serve as an adverbial modifier, as in "I ordered numerous entrees and let the team choose among them." Here, "among them" modifies "choose." But if I have a noun followed by a comma + "among them," then yes, that's very likely to be the kind of noun modifier we're looking at. This is one case where a comma definitely matters. I could never say "The novel has many fans among them the queen." Without the comma, the modifier's meaning is not at all clear. If I add a comma before "among them," then we can tell that the queen is one of the many fans of the novel.
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 13 Jun 2021, 04:36
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kinjiGC
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.

Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?


Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
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HI egmat

I have a doubt, in option A , including and among them seem redundant, could this also be a possible error in the sentence?
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At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on 13 Jun 2021, 04:44
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egmat
kinjiGC
AbhiJ
At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation on the numerous challenges facing the company, including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent infringement suit and the declining sales for the company’s powerful microprocessor chip.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for

Can some one explain what type of modifier is used in the correct option and some other usages of this type modifier.

Meaning : At the annual SHM investors heard numerous challenges. Among those challenges were two challenges : threat from a rival's MDPI and decline in sales of company's powerful microprocessor chip.

verbing modifier should modify the preceding clause and should make sense with the subject of the preceding clause. Here including modifies the challenges and doesn't fit well with "investors" subject of the preceding clause.
A. including among them the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the declining sales for
Rejecting the option A for the above reason and also sales of instead of "for".

B. which includes the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and declining sales of
which should replace challenges and includes has SV issue

C. included among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as a decline in sales for
included should modify the closest noun "challenges" that is correct. "included among these" construction doesn't seem correct. sales of should be used instead of "for".

D. among them the threat of a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit and the decline in sales of
This looks the least of the devil.

E. among these the threat from a rival’s multibillion-dollar patent-infringement suit as well as the decline in sales for
"sales for" is the issue.

Doubts:
1) Any issue in "among them" and "among these"?
2) them should refer to the animate pronouns. Isn't it?
3) Any other errors?


Hi kinjiGC,

Thanks for posting your doubt here. :-)

It is true that "comma + verb-ing modifier" modifies the preceding action and must make sense with the doer of the modified action. However, "including" is an exception to this rule. Preceded or not preceded by a comma, "including" ALWAYS modifies a noun entity. In this sentence, "including" modifies "the numerous challenges" because what follows "including" are some of the challenges that the company faced.

Hence, Choice A is not incorrect from "comma + including". It is incorrect, as you have already mentioned, for the use of preposition "for" after "the declining sales" and use of preposition "from" after "threat". The correct preposition in the context of this sentence will be "threat of".

Choice B - Again, there is no problem with the modification of "which" here because "facing the company" is a noun modifier that modifies "the numerous challenges" and cannot be placed anywhere. So "which" can jump over this modifier and correctly modify "challenges". But yes, singular Verb "includes" does not agrre in number with plural Subject "challenges".

Choice C: Again, "included" in this choice is not incorrect for the same reason already explained in Choice B. "these" is demonstrative pronoun and must be followed by a noun. Per the context of the sentence, "these" should be followed by "challenges". But it is not. Hence, use of "these" is incorrect. This choice also repeats both teh incorrect prepositions of Choice A.

Choice D: This choice is correct. Here, "among them...." is a Noun Modifier that correctly modifies "the numerous challenges". Note that "them" can be used to refer to animate as well as inanimate objects.

Choice E: This Choice repeats the "these" error of Choice C and the preposition errors of Choice A.

All your doubts have been addressed in the analysis here. Please study them well, compare it to your analysis, and understand what all you possibly missed in your analysis.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
SJ
Show more

HI egmat

I have a doubt, in option A , including and among them seem redundant, could this also be a possible error in the sentence?
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