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clueless20
Joined: 30 May 2020
Last visit: 23 Feb 2023
Posts: 6
Own Kudos:
Given Kudos: 13
Location: United States (CA)
Schools: Booth '23 (A$) Darden '23 (A$) Kellogg '23 (WA$) Yale '23 (D) Sloan '23 (WL) CBS '23 (D) Fuqua '23 (WL) INSEAD Jan 22 intake (A$)
GMAT 1: 740 Q49 V42
GPA: 2.79
Products:
Schools: Booth '23 (A$) Darden '23 (A$) Kellogg '23 (WA$) Yale '23 (D) Sloan '23 (WL) CBS '23 (D) Fuqua '23 (WL) INSEAD Jan 22 intake (A$)
GMAT 1: 740 Q49 V42
Posts: 6
Kudos:
96
17 Jun 2021, 23:35
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Bookmarks
I've never been more torn in making a decision in my life! I was lucky enough to get into a few schools and have since narrowed it down to Booth and INSEAD. Both are great programs and I'm so grateful to have been accepted into each. I recognize that I can't go wrong with either choice, but for some reason that isn't helping me make a decision. I would be extremely grateful for any thoughts or musings on my situation - hopefully you guys can help me come to some sort of decision here since I only have a week left to make up my mind!
About me:
-29 F, US citizen / caucasian
-Ivy undergrad, engineering degree
-7 years work experience in tech - analytics and internal strategy
-Studied abroad in Shanghai in undergrad. No work experience abroad but have done a lot of international work projects/trips
-I am SO ready to travel
Goals of MBA for me in no particular order:
-Use it to pivot abroad. Spend 2-4 years abroad (preferably somewhere in Asia or an emerging market) and return to the US to settle down in my mid 30s
-Learn as much as possible. Round out my business acumen
-Explore different areas like VC/PE, also interested in international expansion/international strategy roles
-Make a solid group of friends and build a network that will benefit me 10/20/30 years down the road
Booth: (already have a deposit, deadline to defer is 7/1)
PROs:
-Much stronger network in US. I plan to ultimately settle down in the US so this will be useful in the decades to come
-2 year program, so it gives me more time to explore different classes and try new things
-Classes are 3 months vs INSEAD's 2 months, so they go deeper and theoretically I would be learning more
-I've been admitted since December so I've already had time to meet my classmates and I feel like I'm part of the community already
-I could do a 3 month study abroad wherever during my second year
CONs:
-I'm 29 - already above the average age. Worried I'll feel like my classmates are babies since I think so much personal/professional growth happens from 26-28
-Chicago is smack in the middle of the US, so international travel becomes that much more cumbersome
-From the small group of Booth alumni currently working broad that I spoke to, most were either international students to begin with or they were US citizens who ended up in London (I would be fine in London, but it definitely doesn't excite me)
-I would be doing nontraditional recruiting since 99.9% of on campus options are US-based
-Study abroad is only 3 months
INSEAD: (need to pay $13k deposit by Friday 6/25)
PROs:
-Gets me abroad asap (it's been a life goal of mine to work abroad)
-Higher likelihood of me finding a job abroad (see cons for potential counterpoint)
-Average age is 29 so my classmates will have more experience coming into school
-Would begin in January so I would have an internship opportunity
-More international traveling
CONs:
-I've read so many posts that say INSEAD is for consultants to get the MBA stamp and then return to their prior company, or that INSEAD is where the rich international students go to goof off for a year before returning to their home country/family business, so as a result, the focus on academics is lacking
-I ultimately want to settle down in the US, so if I go to INSEAD and work abroad for a year or two after, the INSEAD brand likely won't help much when I'm returning to the US and looking for a job. But perhaps I could rely on my undergrad brand for this? It seems silly to pay so much for a brand name that has short term benefits (getting me abroad) but not much in terms of long term re: US networking...
-INSEAD career services told me that only 50 US citizens in the last 5 years have found job sponsorship in Singapore/Australia after graduation, which equates to 10 per year or 5 per class. This is somewhat alarming since ~50 students in each class are American
-The INSEAD alumni I've spoken to who immediately returned to the US after graduation told me that their INSEAD degree/network didn't help at all in the job search and they had to rely on other networks. Again - red flag since this is going to cost $$$$$$ and I want the value to last longer than the few years I'm abroad for
Other facts to consider:
-I received a scholarship at Booth so both schools come out to approx the same amount for tuition + living expenses. Wish I could pick one based on $ alone
-There is a SMALL chance that an international role could open up at my current company, but I likely wouldn't know this until after the INSEAD deadline comes and goes. If I could make this work, I would jump at this role and defer INSEAD or Booth for a year. Likely INSEAD because then I'd be extremely old by Booth standards, but there's no way I'd know if I got the job by the INSEAD deadline next Friday
-Do I really want to be early 30s and trying to uproot what is supposed to be the beginning of a stable career trajectory to try to go abroad? 30s is generally the time people want to settle down and I'd be completely uprooting my life
Tl;dr: My brain is telling me Booth, but my heart is telling me INSEAD. I always make decisions with my brain, but maybe it's time to do things differently? Or is a ~$150k purchase a silly time to start doing things differently? I can't seem to give up the idea of INSEAD even though I know it might be a poor choice longer term since my goal is to return to the US, but I don't want to always wonder "what if" and watch the opportunities to go abroad pass me by.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
About me:
-29 F, US citizen / caucasian
-Ivy undergrad, engineering degree
-7 years work experience in tech - analytics and internal strategy
-Studied abroad in Shanghai in undergrad. No work experience abroad but have done a lot of international work projects/trips
-I am SO ready to travel
Goals of MBA for me in no particular order:
-Use it to pivot abroad. Spend 2-4 years abroad (preferably somewhere in Asia or an emerging market) and return to the US to settle down in my mid 30s
-Learn as much as possible. Round out my business acumen
-Explore different areas like VC/PE, also interested in international expansion/international strategy roles
-Make a solid group of friends and build a network that will benefit me 10/20/30 years down the road
Booth: (already have a deposit, deadline to defer is 7/1)
PROs:
-Much stronger network in US. I plan to ultimately settle down in the US so this will be useful in the decades to come
-2 year program, so it gives me more time to explore different classes and try new things
-Classes are 3 months vs INSEAD's 2 months, so they go deeper and theoretically I would be learning more
-I've been admitted since December so I've already had time to meet my classmates and I feel like I'm part of the community already
-I could do a 3 month study abroad wherever during my second year
CONs:
-I'm 29 - already above the average age. Worried I'll feel like my classmates are babies since I think so much personal/professional growth happens from 26-28
-Chicago is smack in the middle of the US, so international travel becomes that much more cumbersome
-From the small group of Booth alumni currently working broad that I spoke to, most were either international students to begin with or they were US citizens who ended up in London (I would be fine in London, but it definitely doesn't excite me)
-I would be doing nontraditional recruiting since 99.9% of on campus options are US-based
-Study abroad is only 3 months
INSEAD: (need to pay $13k deposit by Friday 6/25)
PROs:
-Gets me abroad asap (it's been a life goal of mine to work abroad)
-Higher likelihood of me finding a job abroad (see cons for potential counterpoint)
-Average age is 29 so my classmates will have more experience coming into school
-Would begin in January so I would have an internship opportunity
-More international traveling
CONs:
-I've read so many posts that say INSEAD is for consultants to get the MBA stamp and then return to their prior company, or that INSEAD is where the rich international students go to goof off for a year before returning to their home country/family business, so as a result, the focus on academics is lacking
-I ultimately want to settle down in the US, so if I go to INSEAD and work abroad for a year or two after, the INSEAD brand likely won't help much when I'm returning to the US and looking for a job. But perhaps I could rely on my undergrad brand for this? It seems silly to pay so much for a brand name that has short term benefits (getting me abroad) but not much in terms of long term re: US networking...
-INSEAD career services told me that only 50 US citizens in the last 5 years have found job sponsorship in Singapore/Australia after graduation, which equates to 10 per year or 5 per class. This is somewhat alarming since ~50 students in each class are American
-The INSEAD alumni I've spoken to who immediately returned to the US after graduation told me that their INSEAD degree/network didn't help at all in the job search and they had to rely on other networks. Again - red flag since this is going to cost $$$$$$ and I want the value to last longer than the few years I'm abroad for
Other facts to consider:
-I received a scholarship at Booth so both schools come out to approx the same amount for tuition + living expenses. Wish I could pick one based on $ alone
-There is a SMALL chance that an international role could open up at my current company, but I likely wouldn't know this until after the INSEAD deadline comes and goes. If I could make this work, I would jump at this role and defer INSEAD or Booth for a year. Likely INSEAD because then I'd be extremely old by Booth standards, but there's no way I'd know if I got the job by the INSEAD deadline next Friday
-Do I really want to be early 30s and trying to uproot what is supposed to be the beginning of a stable career trajectory to try to go abroad? 30s is generally the time people want to settle down and I'd be completely uprooting my life
Tl;dr: My brain is telling me Booth, but my heart is telling me INSEAD. I always make decisions with my brain, but maybe it's time to do things differently? Or is a ~$150k purchase a silly time to start doing things differently? I can't seem to give up the idea of INSEAD even though I know it might be a poor choice longer term since my goal is to return to the US, but I don't want to always wonder "what if" and watch the opportunities to go abroad pass me by.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
21 Jun 2021, 06:17
Kudos
Bookmarks
Congrats on your admits! Solid effort.
Rule of thumb: Stay on the country you want to end up in. So from that perspective, it's Booth, little to debate here.
As for your particular case:
- INSEAD will get you further in EU/Asia, Booth in the US. But Booth will go a bit further in EU/Asia than INSEAD in the US
- As you want to go back to the US by the time you're in the mid 30s, when you're looking for a job it'll be less about the MBA and more about your experience.
I don't particularly agree about the academics part. 100% agree on the depth and duration argument, but INSEAD focuses more on intensity and multi tasking. You very often have +12hr days in Campus, and are juggling with a lot of stuff. So yeah, you'll most likely get marginal academic gains at Booth, but at a slower pace. After all, if differences were so pronounced, INSEAD wouldn't be a top school.
Re: Visas, Australia is a very small MBA market. You'll have to work quite a bit to get opportunities there if you're not gunning for MBB (not even the tech scene is that big). SGP is bigger, and there are plenty of roles there. So I wouldn't make much about the fact that few Americans got visas, I'd say it's more related to choice. +100 classmates ended up in SGP after graduation, so don't think that it'll be an issue.
Rounding up, I think you have great choices ahead, so IMO, looking at your goals:
-Use it to pivot abroad --> INSEAD>Booth
-Learn as much as possible --> Tie, I think that intensity is just as valuable as a couple more topics on a subject
-Explore different areas like VC/PE, also interested in international expansion/international strategy roles --> Depends on the region, but let's assume VC/PE in the US long term then Booth>>INSEAD and for international roles after graduation --> INSEAD>>Booth
-Make a solid group of friends and build a network that will benefit me 10/20/30 years down the road --> As you're trying to settle in the US Booth>INSEAD, hard to think you'll leave any MBA friendless!
It seems that it'd make more sense for you to go to Booth for your long term goals, and make the effort to recruit abroad even though you acknowledge it'll be hard. Second years at US MBAs are mostly for job hunting, so might as well make the effort then than recruiting in the US with a full time Australian job without a strong network to tap into!
Rule of thumb: Stay on the country you want to end up in. So from that perspective, it's Booth, little to debate here.
As for your particular case:
- INSEAD will get you further in EU/Asia, Booth in the US. But Booth will go a bit further in EU/Asia than INSEAD in the US
- As you want to go back to the US by the time you're in the mid 30s, when you're looking for a job it'll be less about the MBA and more about your experience.
I don't particularly agree about the academics part. 100% agree on the depth and duration argument, but INSEAD focuses more on intensity and multi tasking. You very often have +12hr days in Campus, and are juggling with a lot of stuff. So yeah, you'll most likely get marginal academic gains at Booth, but at a slower pace. After all, if differences were so pronounced, INSEAD wouldn't be a top school.
Re: Visas, Australia is a very small MBA market. You'll have to work quite a bit to get opportunities there if you're not gunning for MBB (not even the tech scene is that big). SGP is bigger, and there are plenty of roles there. So I wouldn't make much about the fact that few Americans got visas, I'd say it's more related to choice. +100 classmates ended up in SGP after graduation, so don't think that it'll be an issue.
Rounding up, I think you have great choices ahead, so IMO, looking at your goals:
-Use it to pivot abroad --> INSEAD>Booth
-Learn as much as possible --> Tie, I think that intensity is just as valuable as a couple more topics on a subject
-Explore different areas like VC/PE, also interested in international expansion/international strategy roles --> Depends on the region, but let's assume VC/PE in the US long term then Booth>>INSEAD and for international roles after graduation --> INSEAD>>Booth
-Make a solid group of friends and build a network that will benefit me 10/20/30 years down the road --> As you're trying to settle in the US Booth>INSEAD, hard to think you'll leave any MBA friendless!
It seems that it'd make more sense for you to go to Booth for your long term goals, and make the effort to recruit abroad even though you acknowledge it'll be hard. Second years at US MBAs are mostly for job hunting, so might as well make the effort then than recruiting in the US with a full time Australian job without a strong network to tap into!
21 Jun 2021, 15:37
Kudos
Bookmarks
Congratulations on your admits.! Awesome job!!!!
US has one of the best Labor markets and some of the most diverse opportunities. Theoretically, if you plan to come back to the US in five years, then your business called brand is not as critical and hopefully you’ll be using your professional network to get a job and spend the next five years basically priming it. Your business school is most critical during the time when you’re most vulnerable - at graduation. So it may not be as critical to have a US brand on your résumé…
INSEAD is a big consulting placement school. And consulting positions a very competitive. I think just last week one of the former Insead alarms and McKenzie employees mentioned that the acceptance rate is some thing like 1% or 2%. That means not everyone who graduates from inside and wants to go to Consulting will actually go there. You’ll have to do a lot of work to get in and recruiting starts in October so right as you start school basically. That timeframe would have been too fast for me. It’s hard to find your footing and explore things when you have an employment breathing down your neck in a foreign country. If you know your next stop and you’re pretty certain about it and you have strong brands on your résumé then a one-year program is great. It’s not about so much how much work experience you have but the quality of work experience and brands on your résumé. If you have worked for a small US company for 6 years and had a few promotions, that’s hardly going to impress your recruiter. At the same time, if you have a great brand like Apple or Facebook or McKenzie with only three years of work experience, that helps. One way to help the person with six years of average work experiences by getting an internship with a strong brand that they can later plaster over themselves when they recruit for a job. Obviously, that option does not exist with INSEAD. So you need to think about how much you need an internship.
I can share a bit of a story of my cousin who also wanted to stay outside of the US and work in Asia for a while so he started at LBS last year. Obviously things have been a little messed up but I think he’s sort of done with traveling and getting all that out of his system and looking to stop being broke. He actually grew up outside of the US and then went to west point and served in the military and actually had some jobs planned out ahead of time but most of them were in hospitality which is clearly dead now. He was fairly disappointed with the opportunities in London and I think in part it’s hard for an international person to bring a lot of value. For example, what value would you be bringing to Singapore or Australia MBB office? They’re hiring an average consultant and the skill set is fairly basic in terms of call if Acacian‘s. You need to be able to be sharp and present well and fit in well into the organization. On top of that, you would be taking a pay cut to join those offices vs US MBB.
I think you’ll definitely build a strong net work if you go to school abroad, at the same time, it seems Americans tend to stick together and other people kind of socialize together to as they all face the common enemy - French culture shock 😂 but unless you make a lot of effort to bond with your classmates from different cultures and you actually get to know them, it’s going to be hard to build meaningful relationships with people just because everyone is so busy with recruiting and school.
Sorry for rambling but ultimately recruiting as a US person internationally is somewhat tricky. That is one of the reasons for the statistics that you quoted and I would probably bet that the five people per year who do move to Asia, likely have a strong connection through their family or job (Sponsored MBB folks).
I think if you had a strong plan about employers and a path that you have charted and how are you planning to get a job, then it would be one thing but relying on the school it’s going to be tricky especially in light of that statistics you quoted. I think there’s absolutely opportunity for a chance and luck and a lot of those chances start stacking up as you continue to exert effort and try to recruit and clearly at a business school can yield a strong result but purely statistically speaking and from the standpoint of numbers, booth seems to present An option that is a lot safer and proven to work. If you came to me and asked me to finance your education and that he would pay me back after you graduate and get a job, looking at the two business plans, I have a lot more certainty in getting my money back from the Chicago booth scenario. The internship provides safety and also the extra time gives opportunities to experiment and try more things….
Anyway long message to say that both schools would work and you would not die in poverty on the streets of Paris or Chicago but the booth plan is a lot more reliable.
Posted from my mobile device
US has one of the best Labor markets and some of the most diverse opportunities. Theoretically, if you plan to come back to the US in five years, then your business called brand is not as critical and hopefully you’ll be using your professional network to get a job and spend the next five years basically priming it. Your business school is most critical during the time when you’re most vulnerable - at graduation. So it may not be as critical to have a US brand on your résumé…
INSEAD is a big consulting placement school. And consulting positions a very competitive. I think just last week one of the former Insead alarms and McKenzie employees mentioned that the acceptance rate is some thing like 1% or 2%. That means not everyone who graduates from inside and wants to go to Consulting will actually go there. You’ll have to do a lot of work to get in and recruiting starts in October so right as you start school basically. That timeframe would have been too fast for me. It’s hard to find your footing and explore things when you have an employment breathing down your neck in a foreign country. If you know your next stop and you’re pretty certain about it and you have strong brands on your résumé then a one-year program is great. It’s not about so much how much work experience you have but the quality of work experience and brands on your résumé. If you have worked for a small US company for 6 years and had a few promotions, that’s hardly going to impress your recruiter. At the same time, if you have a great brand like Apple or Facebook or McKenzie with only three years of work experience, that helps. One way to help the person with six years of average work experiences by getting an internship with a strong brand that they can later plaster over themselves when they recruit for a job. Obviously, that option does not exist with INSEAD. So you need to think about how much you need an internship.
I can share a bit of a story of my cousin who also wanted to stay outside of the US and work in Asia for a while so he started at LBS last year. Obviously things have been a little messed up but I think he’s sort of done with traveling and getting all that out of his system and looking to stop being broke. He actually grew up outside of the US and then went to west point and served in the military and actually had some jobs planned out ahead of time but most of them were in hospitality which is clearly dead now. He was fairly disappointed with the opportunities in London and I think in part it’s hard for an international person to bring a lot of value. For example, what value would you be bringing to Singapore or Australia MBB office? They’re hiring an average consultant and the skill set is fairly basic in terms of call if Acacian‘s. You need to be able to be sharp and present well and fit in well into the organization. On top of that, you would be taking a pay cut to join those offices vs US MBB.
I think you’ll definitely build a strong net work if you go to school abroad, at the same time, it seems Americans tend to stick together and other people kind of socialize together to as they all face the common enemy - French culture shock 😂 but unless you make a lot of effort to bond with your classmates from different cultures and you actually get to know them, it’s going to be hard to build meaningful relationships with people just because everyone is so busy with recruiting and school.
Sorry for rambling but ultimately recruiting as a US person internationally is somewhat tricky. That is one of the reasons for the statistics that you quoted and I would probably bet that the five people per year who do move to Asia, likely have a strong connection through their family or job (Sponsored MBB folks).
I think if you had a strong plan about employers and a path that you have charted and how are you planning to get a job, then it would be one thing but relying on the school it’s going to be tricky especially in light of that statistics you quoted. I think there’s absolutely opportunity for a chance and luck and a lot of those chances start stacking up as you continue to exert effort and try to recruit and clearly at a business school can yield a strong result but purely statistically speaking and from the standpoint of numbers, booth seems to present An option that is a lot safer and proven to work. If you came to me and asked me to finance your education and that he would pay me back after you graduate and get a job, looking at the two business plans, I have a lot more certainty in getting my money back from the Chicago booth scenario. The internship provides safety and also the extra time gives opportunities to experiment and try more things….
Anyway long message to say that both schools would work and you would not die in poverty on the streets of Paris or Chicago but the booth plan is a lot more reliable.
Posted from my mobile device
