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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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GMATNinja wrote:
Full disclosure: I missed this one the first time I saw it, mostly because I was too mechanical about “pronoun ambiguity.”


GMATNinja - It would be one thing to stand behind a perfect score and dictate why such-and-such an answer might be correct, but I am impressed by your show of vulnerability. I gave you a kudos, not that I imagine you need extras, for that confession alone, but I think I also echo the thoughts of many readers when I say that your meticulous yet engaging treatment of the responses is a paragon of thoughtful analysis. I enjoy reading your posts, and I hope that I, as a tutor, may improve my own methods and comprehension of topics to one day come out on top and hit that elusive perfect score.

Great work once again. My own confession: although I got this one right on the first attempt, I have missed others either through carelessness or, on occasion, through a genuine lack of understanding. The process of improvement is what I live for.
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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On the explanation of GmatNinja for answer D, I wonder whether that the "or with..." phrase is problematic since there is no prep phrase before that? In other words, if the prep phrase need to be parallel with another prep phrase?

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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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NeoNguyen1989 wrote:
On the explanation of GmatNinja for answer D, I wonder whether that the "or with..." phrase is problematic since there is no prep phrase before that? In other words, if the prep phrase need to be parallel with another prep phrase?

Posted from my mobile device


NeoNguyen - I cannot speak to what GMATNinja might say--I think he touches on the topic in his explanation to answer (B), and maybe he did not want to repeat himself--but or with, the two words together, does provide one fork in the road that deterred me from choosing answer (D). That is, I would be fine with a second independent clause that said, "they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises..." just as I could get behind one that said, "they are often green and striped, with plenty of bumps and bruises..." but or with is NOT the cleanest way of expressing that extra descriptor. I would, in fact, expect a more parallel construct in the correct answer. Apart from that issue, (D) also falls flat at the end, as GMATNinja noted earlier. I wonder, did you pick (D), or are you simply posing your question out of curiosity? Either way, nice catch. These nuances can make all the difference in SC questions, and drawing attention to them as you have here is a great way to help others in their studies. That warrants a kudos from me.

- Andrew
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
GMATNinja

Really enjoyed your youtube webinar on parallelism!

I picked D as my answer. Can you help clarify two 2 points:

1) Are 'have plenty of bumps and bruises' and 'are often green and striped' parallel because they're both verb phrases? (I eliminated this because I didn't think they were parallel but I guess now I do since they're both verb phrases.
2) Is there a rule as to why we need a clause following "although"? Is that just idiomatic?

Thanks!
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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Here's my take on this one




(A) cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are ------- "often green and striped" needs to be clearly modifying HAILOOM TOMATOES. In this choice, it looks as though it were modifying "cousins".


(B) cousins, often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although ------- "often green and striped" needs to be clearly modifying HAILOOM TOMATOES. In this choice, it looks as though it were modifying "cousins".


(C) cousins, often green and striped, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises, although they are ------- "often green and striped" needs to be clearly modifying HAILOOM TOMATOES. In this choice, it looks as though it were modifying "cousins".


(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although -------- Wrong parallelism. "with" is not parallel to anything here, as there are not any prepositional phrases before.


(E) cousins; they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but they are -------- CORRECT.
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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firsttimenoob wrote:
GMATNinja

Really enjoyed your youtube webinar on parallelism!

I picked D as my answer. Can you help clarify two 2 points:

1) Are 'have plenty of bumps and bruises' and 'are often green and striped' parallel because they're both verb phrases? (I eliminated this because I didn't think they were parallel but I guess now I do since they're both verb phrases.
2) Is there a rule as to why we need a clause following "although"? Is that just idiomatic?

Thanks!

Yes, “have plenty of bumps and bruises” and “are often green and striped” are parallel verb phrases.

And, no, there are no concrete rules when it comes to what should follow "although". Unfortunately you just have to line up the options side by side and think about the clarity of the meaning. I certainly wouldn't immediately eliminate something just because of the presence/absence of a clause after "although".

I hope that helps!
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firsttimenoob wrote:
2) Is there a rule as to why we need a clause following "although"? Is that just idiomatic?

Thanks!



Hello firsttimenoob,

Although your question is not addressed to me, here is a little usage nuance on although.


It is a general belief that the connector although must be followed by a clause. But that is not the case always. The word although may not be followed by a clause if the SV pair in the clause following although and the SV pair in the main clause are the same. For example,


Although (the room is) small, the room looks spacious.


Takeaway: Do not reject an answer choice because there is no clause after the word although.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
Full disclosure: I missed this one the first time I saw it, mostly because I was too mechanical about “pronoun ambiguity.” But as you might have noticed in our YouTube webinar on pronouns, pronoun ambiguity isn’t an absolute rule.

Plus, there’s a nuance to this particular situation: in (D) and (E), the subject of the second independent clause is a pronoun, and I’m pretty sure that the subject of the second clause can refer unambiguously to the subject of the first clause – even if there are a ton of other potential referents in between those two subjects. More on that in the YouTube webinar, too.

Quote:
(A) cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are

This isn’t technically a run-on sentence, but it feels like one. It’s oddly tricky to pin down the exact errors, even though it’s clearly a mess. I guess I’d start with the parallelism: “or” is a parallelism trigger, so the verb phrase “have plenty of bumps and bruises” must be parallel to some other verb phrase. But the only other verb phrase is “look less appetizing”: “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their supermarket cousins… or have plenty of bumps and bruises.”

That doesn’t make sense. Why are we using an “or” there? Those two verb phrases support each other, and both are true.

Plus, the placement of “often green and striped” could be better. It looks like the “supermarket cousins” are “green and striped” – but that’s not right. The heirlooms are green and striped. So we have plenty of reasons to ditch (A).

Quote:
(B) cousins, often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

This is an even hotter mess than (A). I can’t figure out what to do with the “or with plenty of bumps and bruises” here, either – nothing is reasonably parallel to the prepositional phrase “with plenty of bumps and bruises”, since there really aren’t any prepositional phrases earlier in the sentence that could possibly work.

Plus, that last bit is weird: “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their (supermarket cousins)…, although more flavorful.” I could go for “although they are more flavorful”, but the sentence doesn’t make sense the way it’s written. “Although” requires a clause in this situation, not just a random adjective.

Oh yeah – and the “often green and striped” is still in a weird location. (B) is out.

Quote:
(C) cousins, often green and striped, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises, although they are

This is getting better, but the “often green and striped” is still arguably misplaces, and we still have a parallelism issue with the “or.” “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their (supermarket cousins)…, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises.” Again, the two phrases on either side of the “or” just don’t make sense: both are true, and the two phrases actually support each other. Eliminate (C).

Quote:
(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

If you’re being too mechanical, you might conclude that “they” is ambiguous, because it could refer to “cousins”, “seeds”, or “tomatoes.” But we’re OK here: “they” is the subject of the second clause, and I don’t think there’s any ambiguity in GMAT-land if the subject of the second clause (“they”) refers back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”).

And both the “or” and the “green and striped” finally make sense! Trouble is, we have that little problem with “although more flavorful” at the end of the sentence. In this situation, we’d need a clause following “although”, not just a random adjective. (D) is better than (A), (B), and (C), but it’s still flawed.

Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only look less appetizing than their round and red supermarket cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are more flavorful.

Quote:
(E) cousins; they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but they are

Great. The pronouns are all nice and clear, according to GMAT rules: the subject of the second (“they are often green and striped”) and third clauses (“they are more flavorful”) refer back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”). The verb phrase “have plenty of bumps and bruises” is appropriately parallel to “are often green and striped” – and the “or” makes sense.

(E) is our winner, and now I really want a gigantic salad.



Hi - So even though there i pronoun ambiguity in option E, we selecting this because there is no other option left and its not an absolute rule? Wat if in option E. The first "they" was replaced by heirloom tomatoes - would that be better? Thanks!
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kanikab wrote:
Hi - So even though there i pronoun ambiguity in option E, we selecting this because there is no other option left and its not an absolute rule? Wat if in option E. The first "they" was replaced by heirloom tomatoes - would that be better? Thanks!

Well, yes... as discussed in this video, pronoun ambiguity is not an absolute rule.

But you could also argue that the "they" in choice (D) and in choice (E) is not actually ambiguous. The GMAT is weirdly consistent about this: if a sentence contains two clauses (either one dependent and one independent, or two independent clauses) and the second clause starts with a pronoun, then the pronoun can refer unambiguously to the subject of the first clause.

But the second we start trying to fit GMAT errors into nice little boxes, GMAC throws us a curveball that blows up the little "rule" we've created! So a better approach, as you suggested, is to use POE. If you have an answer choice that's better than the others in every way but that has some potential pronoun ambiguity, you've probably found your winner. :)

As for your second question ("if in option E. The first "they" was replaced by heirloom tomatoes - would that be better?") -- maybe? You could argue that repeating "heirloom tomatoes" is unnecessary and redundant. But rather than trying to analyzing tweaked versions of the answer choices (something you'll NEVER have to do on test day), just make sure you understand why (E) is the best choice here.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
I understand the rest of the statements are wrong, but i need more clarity on why "comma" is required before "or"
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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RAHUL_GMAT wrote:
I understand the rest of the statements are wrong, but i need more clarity on why "comma" is required before "or"

Hello, RAHUL_GMAT. You ask a fair question, and the only fair answer I can provide is that the comma is not compulsory, but it does alter the way we interpret the sentence. I myself prefer the comma-less version to mean an alternative to something, in this case green and striped. That is, rather than being green and striped, heirloom tomatoes can also be bumpy or bruised. The sentence in full, with choice (E) inserted:

Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only look less appetizing than their round and red supermarket cousins; they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but they are more flavorful.

Since or is not being used to connect two independent clauses, we cannot say that the comma indicates as much. (Although there is an understood subject in they within this or phrase, we can only go by what is on the screen.) There are two ways left for or to be used with a comma in such a context. The first is to connect a synonymous term to a previously stated one. For instance, we could write, The dandelion, or weed in the eyes of many, provides plenty of nutrition in a small package if ingested. In the sentence above, we can see that this case does not apply. I mean, have plenty of bumps and bruises is a way of rephrasing are often green and striped? Not by a long shot. This leaves a final possibility. Or with a comma can be used to rephrase an idea, and the idea here is that heirloom tomatoes only look less appetizing than their round and red supermarket cousins. How so? They can come in colors less appealing than tomato red, they might have stripes, or they can have not just one bump or bruise, but many such imperfections. This is a grammatically acceptable way of using a comma with or, and I think it is the best of the bunch, considering the alternatives.

For reference: link

I hope that helps. Thank you for calling attention to such a fine grammatical point.

- Andrew
Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

If you’re being too mechanical, you might conclude that “they” is ambiguous, because it could refer to “cousins”, “seeds”, or “tomatoes.” But we’re OK here: “they” is the subject of the second clause, and I don’t think there’s any ambiguity in GMAT-land if the subject of the second clause (“they”) refers back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”).

And both the “or” and the “green and striped” finally make sense! Trouble is, we have that little problem with “although more flavorful” at the end of the sentence. In this situation, we’d need a clause following “although”, not just a random adjective. (D) is better than (A), (B), and (C), but it’s still flawed.


GMATNinja
Hello Sir,
I did not find any consistency to parallel the open marker (or). It seems that ‘are’ and ‘with’ are not parallel each other. Am I missing anything here?
Thanks__
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Asad wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:
(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

If you’re being too mechanical, you might conclude that “they” is ambiguous, because it could refer to “cousins”, “seeds”, or “tomatoes.” But we’re OK here: “they” is the subject of the second clause, and I don’t think there’s any ambiguity in GMAT-land if the subject of the second clause (“they”) refers back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”).

And both the “or” and the “green and striped” finally make sense! Trouble is, we have that little problem with “although more flavorful” at the end of the sentence. In this situation, we’d need a clause following “although”, not just a random adjective. (D) is better than (A), (B), and (C), but it’s still flawed.


GMATNinja
Hello Sir,
I did not find any consistency to parallel the open marker (or). It seems that ‘are’ and ‘with’ are not parallel each other. Am I missing anything here?
Thanks__

You're absolutely right! The parallelism is a bit off in (D): ".. they are often (1) green and striped, or (2) with plenty of bumps and bruises..." Although both things modify "they", we have a prepositional phrase parallel to the regular ol' adjectives "green and striped".

The parallelism is much better in (E): "... they (1) are often green and striped, or (2) have plenty of bumps and bruises..." The verb phrase “have plenty of bumps and bruises” is appropriately parallel to “are often green and striped”. And saying "they HAVE plenty of bumps and bruises" is much better than saying, "they are often WITH plenty of bumps and bruises".

For more on choice (D), check out this post.
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
Full disclosure: I missed this one the first time I saw it, mostly because I was too mechanical about “pronoun ambiguity.” But as you might have noticed in our YouTube webinar on pronouns, pronoun ambiguity isn’t an absolute rule.

Plus, there’s a nuance to this particular situation: in (D) and (E), the subject of the second independent clause is a pronoun, and I’m pretty sure that the subject of the second clause can refer unambiguously to the subject of the first clause – even if there are a ton of other potential referents in between those two subjects. More on that in the YouTube webinar, too.

Quote:
(A) cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are

This isn’t technically a run-on sentence, but it feels like one. It’s oddly tricky to pin down the exact errors, even though it’s clearly a mess. I guess I’d start with the parallelism: “or” is a parallelism trigger, so the verb phrase “have plenty of bumps and bruises” must be parallel to some other verb phrase. But the only other verb phrase is “look less appetizing”: “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their supermarket cousins… or have plenty of bumps and bruises.”

That doesn’t make sense. Why are we using an “or” there? Those two verb phrases support each other, and both are true.

Plus, the placement of “often green and striped” could be better. It looks like the “supermarket cousins” are “green and striped” – but that’s not right. The heirlooms are green and striped. So we have plenty of reasons to ditch (A).

Quote:
(B) cousins, often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

This is an even hotter mess than (A). I can’t figure out what to do with the “or with plenty of bumps and bruises” here, either – nothing is reasonably parallel to the prepositional phrase “with plenty of bumps and bruises”, since there really aren’t any prepositional phrases earlier in the sentence that could possibly work.

Plus, that last bit is weird: “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their (supermarket cousins)…, although more flavorful.” I could go for “although they are more flavorful”, but the sentence doesn’t make sense the way it’s written. “Although” requires a clause in this situation, not just a random adjective.

Oh yeah – and the “often green and striped” is still in a weird location. (B) is out.

Quote:
(C) cousins, often green and striped, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises, although they are

This is getting better, but the “often green and striped” is still arguably misplaces, and we still have a parallelism issue with the “or.” “Heirloom tomatoes… only look less appetizing than their (supermarket cousins)…, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises.” Again, the two phrases on either side of the “or” just don’t make sense: both are true, and the two phrases actually support each other. Eliminate (C).

Quote:
(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

If you’re being too mechanical, you might conclude that “they” is ambiguous, because it could refer to “cousins”, “seeds”, or “tomatoes.” But we’re OK here: “they” is the subject of the second clause, and I don’t think there’s any ambiguity in GMAT-land if the subject of the second clause (“they”) refers back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”).

And both the “or” and the “green and striped” finally make sense! Trouble is, we have that little problem with “although more flavorful” at the end of the sentence. In this situation, we’d need a clause following “although”, not just a random adjective. (D) is better than (A), (B), and (C), but it’s still flawed.

Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only look less appetizing than their round and red supermarket cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are more flavorful.

Quote:
(E) cousins; they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but they are

Great. The pronouns are all nice and clear, according to GMAT rules: the subject of the second (“they are often green and striped”) and third clauses (“they are more flavorful”) refer back to the subject of the first clause (“heirloom tomatoes”). The verb phrase “have plenty of bumps and bruises” is appropriately parallel to “are often green and striped” – and the “or” makes sense.

(E) is our winner, and now I really want a gigantic salad.


Hi GMATNinja

Isnt there a parallelism issue with option D?
we have green(adjective), striped(adjective) or with bumps(prepositonal phrase). Is this adjective with a prepostional phrase correct?
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shanks2020 wrote:
Hi GMATNinja

Isnt there a parallelism issue with option D?
we have green(adjective), striped(adjective) or with bumps(prepositonal phrase). Is this adjective with a prepostional phrase correct?

Yes there is! For more on that, check out this post.

Also, (embarrassingly late!) thanks AndrewN for the kind words (and the subsequent explanation). I'm not sure how we missed that last year, but it's always really nice to receive praise from a fellow tutor, especially one who consistently writes incredibly smart things here on the forum. I owe you a few beers post-pandemic, Andrew! :)
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Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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GMATNinja wrote:
Also, (embarrassingly late!) thanks AndrewN for the kind words (and the subsequent explanation). I'm not sure how we missed that last year, but it's always really nice to receive praise from a fellow tutor, especially one who consistently writes incredibly smart things here on the forum. I owe you a few beers post-pandemic, Andrew! :)

No worries, Charles, and thank you for the compliments. As is my wont, I did not tag you when I wrote the post, and with the number of requests I imagine you get each day, I am sure you have more pressing matters on your plate, as the saying goes. (You seem to enjoy food and related talk.) I am also very much of a Buddhist mindset, even if I have not taken on the robe: what may come in time may come. (There was a single time in which I reached out to you through a direct mention, in this thread based on an unofficial question, the kind I know you tend not to prioritize. I also reached out to several other Experts by name, seeking a second opinion. No one responded. I gave what I thought was a well-thought-out response... and the community completely turned against me. But you know what? In keeping with what I wrote above, and to quote Kurt Vonnegut, so it goes. (And since no one but you is likely to read this aside within an aside, buried on the back page as this dialogue is, I did happen to come across an official SC question that placed that right after a colon, going against the redundancy concern that others had voiced against me. I did not have the heart to post my findings, thinking it might be construed as having been done in poor taste. I will leave the trail of breadcrumbs here instead.))

We seem to have just missed each other in Colorado. Before my GMAT Club days, I tutored for several years at a business in Colorado Springs. I would have enjoyed meeting up, but I left the state in mid-2018.

You owe me nothing. Not a beer, not a response. I am pleased to have crossed paths with you in this forum. To be honest, I still cannot believe it when I see my name mentioned alongside yours from time to time in Expert requests. I feel like such a pretender, even if I enjoy breaking down questions and reflecting my thought process in this medium.

Cheers, both to you and, dare I say, to Number Two,
Andrew
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icandy wrote:
Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only look less appetizing than their round and red supermarket cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are more flavorful.


(A) cousins, often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but are

(B) cousins, often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

(C) cousins, often green and striped, or they have plenty of bumps and bruises, although they are

(D) cousins; they are often green and striped, or with plenty of bumps and bruises, although

(E) cousins; they are often green and striped, or have plenty of bumps and bruises, but they are


This question is based on Modifiers and Construction.

In Options A and B, the modifier “often green and striped” could be modifying heirloom tomatoes or their round and red supermarket cousins. The subject of the modifiers is not clear.
Option B is also incomplete because the verb is missing at the end of the option.
There seems to be a lack of parallelism between the two modifiers “often green and striped” and “have plenty of bumps and bruises” in Option A. Since the modifiers describe one of the kinds of tomatoes and are placed on either side of the conjunction 'or', they must be similar in structure. The modifiers are not any more parallel in Option B either.
So, Options A and B can be ruled out.

In Option C, the pronoun ‘they’ is ambiguous as it is not clear whether it refers to heirloom tomatoes or their supermarket cousins. There is again a lack of parallelism between the two descriptions. So, Option C can also be ruled out.

Option D is also incomplete because there is a verb missing at the end of the option. There is a lack of parallelism between the two modifiers in this option too. So, Option D can be ruled out.

In Option E, the pronoun ‘they’ is placed after a semi-colon. Since the subject of the first part of the sentence is “heirloom tomatoes”, the placement of the pronoun ‘they’ at the beginning of the independent clause after the semi-colon makes it clear that the pronoun refers to ‘heirloom tomatoes’. Therefore, E is the most appropriate option.

Jayanthi Kumar.
GMAT Club Bot
Re: Heirloom tomatoes, grown from seeds saved from the previous year, only [#permalink]
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