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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship?

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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post Updated on: 13 Dec 2017, 23:19
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Don't mean to scare anyone but I have been watching many international students graduate in the last year from Top 20 MBA programs. A number of the ones I have kept in touch had a hard time getting a job. For one reason or another ... they would get interviews and get opportunities but would not convert into a job offer. At the same time, that did not seem to be an issue for those admitted into Top 10. So what does it mean?

I have a Theory: Top 20 School vs. Top 40 with a scholarship - I would pick Top 40 for Internationals

It is only a theory and I welcome rebuttals, comments, and objections as it will help us perfect it and in discussion get a clearer picture. Here is what I am basing it on and what caveats exist - feel free to disagree:

  • A scholarship is a certain and a job after graduating is not. In the worst case scenario if you have to head back to your home country, it would be much better to go back with having spent $50K than $150K. With the latest immigration, things are probably looking better than worse for MBA grads, but only the time will tell. Right now, it is just all uncertain.

  • Ranking of a school is important but more so is its class size. Large programs (they all tend to be top 10), enjoy large on campus recruiting events and a number of employers who attend on campus events. That's not the case for smaller 200 or 150 class programs. If you are not a part of a large class and a school with a machine-like career office, prepare to do the heavy lifting.

  • Brand names and experience in International/US/well-known companies is very important, if you don't have it, prepare to be treated like a peasant (harsh reality). However, if you have a strong brand on your resume (Microsoft, FB, Google, etc - then you will be much better off with recruiting)

  • Language skills are very important. If you have a heavy access and suck at speaking, you will have a hard time converting at interviews and connecting with potential employers. Your resume and fancy brand name can only take you so far. Do what you can to improve this area - it is a lot more important than accounting or strategy class when it gets to recruiting. Sign up for toast-masters, practice speaking, rehearse, and ask others for feedback. Improving your speaking/speech skills and networking are the two most critical items you can do while in BSchool. If you have great language command, then again, you are better positioned.

  • Networking is critical if you are in a non 500-person class at Booth or Kellogg. If you are a quiet IT guy - you are SCREWED. OK, maybe you are a genius and you will get a technical job for your technical skills (in which case, MBA was not really helpful) but you really need to figure out how to improve your elevator pitch, how to schmooze, and how to build a network. Get a book, sign up with as many clubs as you can, pursue opportunities and do what you can to be engaged. This will definitely push your comfort zone but did you expect results without that?

  • Most successful international applicants found their first job (hardest to get) through their internship. Internships are critical and it is absolutely important to do what you can to get a great one - do whatever it takes. I did not realize this and this is a mistake I've made by working at a startup during my summer.

  • Aim for Schools in large Metro areas vs. small towns - e.g. Emory in Atlanta vs. Kelley in Bloomington or McCombs in Austin vs. UNC in Chapel Hill. Large metro areas have employers and jobs right there. It is easier to network, easier to connect, and easier to attend an interview. You will also be happier as an international student living in a large cosmopolitan city.

  • A Top 20 vs. Top 40 - I am not sure how much difference in terms of the most important factor - career/job after graduation you will see as an international student. Even if you go Top 5 (or just read reviews of the top 5 bschools https://gmatclub.com/reviews/business_schools) you will see that most dissatisfaction people experience with other students. No matter how elite the program is, classmates seems to be the biggest complaint. People feel their classmates disappointed them. Second most disappointing area is professors - students at Booth and Wharton often comment how teacher assistants tend to do a better job at teaching than super-famous professors who really don't care about teaching basic finance classes to 27 year olds and would rather do research or theorize with their hedge fund friends.


This kind of turned into a list of tips but you get the pros and cons. If you are an average international applicant without strong brand names on your resume, not very outgoing, and with a Top 20 school in the middle of nowhere, you may want to reconsider a scholarship offer from a lesser ranked school $100K is a bit difference and even $70 is.


Important Clarification Note on bb's Terminology:
Top 10 is any School that is ranked up to #14 - these are not the subject of the discussion
Top 20 is Schools ranked between #15 and #24 (Starting with Anderson and all the way to Marshall though odd that 2 LA schools define this bracket)
Top 30 is School ranked between #25 and #35
Top 40 is Schools ranked between #36 and #44
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Originally posted by bb on 13 Dec 2017, 22:41.
Last edited by bb on 13 Dec 2017, 23:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 13 Dec 2017, 23:09
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Hi bb,

Good post and interesting insights.

Question: what would you choose between Stern with full ride vs Tuck with no ride?

-Considering that Tuck is top 10 and Stern is Top 20

Also, when you say top 20, is the trend you've noticed the same across the board. I.e. are students out of Duke faring equally good/bad as McCombs?

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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 13 Dec 2017, 23:13
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bb10 wrote:
Hi bb,

Good post and interesting insights.

Question: what would you choose between Stern with full ride vs Tuck with no ride?

-Considering that Tuck is top 10 and Stern is Top 20

Also, when you say top 20, is the trend you've noticed the same across the board. I.e. are students out of Duke faring equally good/bad as McCombs?

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1. Stern is an interesting program. It was closer to Top 10 than Top 20 until a few years ago, so it is a bit hard to judge where it really belongs. I would say taking into consideration the size of Stern and the location Tuck, I would pick Stern with a full ride. However, other factors have impact such as companies that recruit on campus at Tuck (MBB's) vs. Stern and if I was hell-bent on Tuck and MBB's I may pick it, but probably would stick with Stern.

2. Fuqua being ranked as #12 or 13 is closer to top 10 than top 20. I probably used not exactly clear terminology when talking about Top 20, I really meant any program below Anderson and probably including Anderson into that group too due to some of the less favorable recruiting there.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 00:46
Thanks for this post. It makes a lot of sense to be frank.

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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 04:22
bb wrote:

Important Clarification Note on bb's Terminology:
Top 10 is any School that is ranked up to #14 - these are not the subject of the discussion
Top 20 is Schools ranked between #15 and #24 (Starting with Anderson and all the way to Marshall though odd that 2 LA schools define this bracket)
Top 30 is School ranked between #25 and #35
Top 40 is Schools ranked between #36 and #44


Hi bb

Thanks for your effort in this post.

To be sure, I assume that the ranking you use is the US News ranking? Am I right?
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 05:04
Brilliant topic - because it made me think in the Gym :)

I think that (have been guilty of this myself) rankings are terribly misleading. I have several friends pursuing MBAs at top 20 schools in the US and couple of top schools in India, and they are all struggling in some way or another.

There is always that one odd person who will have a stellar profile and will have easy sailings - but hey! life is tough man! Especially at these schools: you have a bunch of uber ambitious talented people competed for a few coveted spots.

My thought - whether you go top 20 minus schol or top 40 with schol - you better be willing to work your butt off at either place. Neither decision will make or break your career - but your attitude will.

Yes? No? I'm full of wisdom today :D
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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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Employment reports for the top 20 schools ( Fuqua, Ross, Texas, and even Emory) suggest something else. Even if international students are struggling to get a job, looks like they are ultimately able to land one. How else can 90% of international students get a job within 3 months of graduation? Even the salary seems to be very similar compared to citizens.


Edit- Disregard Ross and Fuqua as per your disclaimer.
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New post 14 Dec 2017, 09:02
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It depends a lot of your aspirations. Do you simply want to get into tech at amazon, dell, ibm, etc? Carnegie mellon will definitely get you there, and with $$$ its a no brainer. If you want to do tech consulting at Mckinsey though or a prestigious LDP, now it's a different discussion. Access becomes the issue, and an m7(ish) is going to be the only option.

The visa situation complicates all of this though, as nobody is really immune to it. You can go to harvard, get the best possible job and still get sent home. You need to weigh the risks of something like that
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 09:10
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cxa0897 wrote:
It depends a lot of your aspirations. Do you simply want to get into tech at amazon, dell, ibm, etc? Carnegie mellon will definitely get you there, and with $$$ its a no brainer. If you want to do tech consulting at Mckinsey though or a prestigious LDP, now it's a different discussion. Access becomes the issue, and an m7(ish) is going to be the only option.

The visa situation complicates all of this though, as nobody is really immune to it. You can go to harvard, get the best possible job and still get sent home. You need to weigh the risks of something like that


I think MBB is doable at top 15. Fuqua, Ross and Darden send at least 10% of the class to MBB.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 09:13
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whymba909 wrote:
Employment reports for the top 20 schools ( Fuqua, Ross, Texas, and even Emory) suggest something else. Even if international students are struggling to get a job, looks like they are ultimately able to land one. How else can 90% of international students get a job within 3 months of graduation? Even the salary seems to be very similar compared to citizens.


Edit- Disregard Ross and Fuqua as per your disclaimer.


The report does not cover 100% of students, it just covers 100% of those who chose to report. When I graduated and struggled finding a good job, I did not report my stats... so you kind of have to look at absolute numbers and speak with current students and alums. I think there are definitely more people who are finding jobs than those who are not, but I am just surprised with the number of those who are not in the last year, vs. previous years (my data is anecdotal and not precise.... but it is a theory :-))
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 09:17
whymba909 wrote:
cxa0897 wrote:
It depends a lot of your aspirations. Do you simply want to get into tech at amazon, dell, ibm, etc? Carnegie mellon will definitely get you there, and with $$$ its a no brainer. If you want to do tech consulting at Mckinsey though or a prestigious LDP, now it's a different discussion. Access becomes the issue, and an m7(ish) is going to be the only option.

The visa situation complicates all of this though, as nobody is really immune to it. You can go to harvard, get the best possible job and still get sent home. You need to weigh the risks of something like that


I think MBB is doable at top 15. Fuqua, Ross and Darden send at least 10% of the class to MBB.


Yes, as long as you are good to take 1:10 chances. But part of the reason why only 10% at Ross vs. 30% at Tuck for example is the caliber of applicants, not just because Bain or BCG have a quota to hire no more than 10% from Ross. So if you are an impressive person who stands out from the crowd, you will get in at both Tuck, HBS, and Ross....

Fuqua and Ross actually have MBB reps on campus quite a bit. Fuqua has them 4 days a week visiting classes and if you play your cards right, it is pretty easy to convert (they are looking mostly at your fit and your presentation skills, and how you perform vs. other class mates).
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 09:33
whymba909 wrote:
cxa0897 wrote:
It depends a lot of your aspirations. Do you simply want to get into tech at amazon, dell, ibm, etc? Carnegie mellon will definitely get you there, and with $$$ its a no brainer. If you want to do tech consulting at Mckinsey though or a prestigious LDP, now it's a different discussion. Access becomes the issue, and an m7(ish) is going to be the only option.

The visa situation complicates all of this though, as nobody is really immune to it. You can go to harvard, get the best possible job and still get sent home. You need to weigh the risks of something like that


I think MBB is doable at top 15. Fuqua, Ross and Darden send at least 10% of the class to MBB.


Yes, but the chances are definitely lower, and you may not get to pick the exact office or exact department. A student at MIT is going to have far better prospects at an MBB that somebody at a top 20/30
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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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bb wrote:
whymba909 wrote:
Employment reports for the top 20 schools ( Fuqua, Ross, Texas, and even Emory) suggest something else. Even if international students are struggling to get a job, looks like they are ultimately able to land one. How else can 90% of international students get a job within 3 months of graduation? Even the salary seems to be very similar compared to citizens.


Edit- Disregard Ross and Fuqua as per your disclaimer.


The report does not cover 100% of students, it just covers 100% of those who chose to report. When I graduated and struggled finding a good job, I did not report my stats... so you kind of have to look at absolute numbers and speak with current students and alums. I think there are definitely more people who are finding jobs than those who are not, but I am just surprised with the number of those who are not in the last year, vs. previous years (my data is anecdotal and not precise.... but it is a theory :-))


That is interesting. However, Fuqua's employment report actually shows the numbers instead of percentage and it looks pretty good to me. take a look at the snapshot that I attached. I cannot speak about other schools like Kenan Flagler or Tepper as they don't have an employment report this detailed.
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Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 10:47
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whymba909 wrote:
bb wrote:
whymba909 wrote:
Employment reports for the top 20 schools ( Fuqua, Ross, Texas, and even Emory) suggest something else. Even if international students are struggling to get a job, looks like they are ultimately able to land one. How else can 90% of international students get a job within 3 months of graduation? Even the salary seems to be very similar compared to citizens.


Edit- Disregard Ross and Fuqua as per your disclaimer.


The report does not cover 100% of students, it just covers 100% of those who chose to report. When I graduated and struggled finding a good job, I did not report my stats... so you kind of have to look at absolute numbers and speak with current students and alums. I think there are definitely more people who are finding jobs than those who are not, but I am just surprised with the number of those who are not in the last year, vs. previous years (my data is anecdotal and not precise.... but it is a theory :-))


That is interesting. However, Fuqua's employment report actually shows the numbers instead of percentage and it looks pretty good to me. take a look at the snapshot that I attached.


Good discussion! Thanks for posting/sharing. The main question is what was the class size. Was the class size 392 that year?
It says 446 but that's for the class of 2018 i believe.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 10:55
cxa0897 wrote:
whymba909 wrote:
cxa0897 wrote:
It depends a lot of your aspirations. Do you simply want to get into tech at amazon, dell, ibm, etc? Carnegie mellon will definitely get you there, and with $$$ its a no brainer. If you want to do tech consulting at Mckinsey though or a prestigious LDP, now it's a different discussion. Access becomes the issue, and an m7(ish) is going to be the only option.

The visa situation complicates all of this though, as nobody is really immune to it. You can go to harvard, get the best possible job and still get sent home. You need to weigh the risks of something like that


I think MBB is doable at top 15. Fuqua, Ross and Darden send at least 10% of the class to MBB.


Yes, but the chances are definitely lower, and you may not get to pick the exact office or exact department. A student at MIT is going to have far better prospects at an MBB that somebody at a top 20/30


Yes chances are lower, its not because of the school that you are attending but because of the student quality. I am sure you will at least get an interview ( if you are good enough) as long as you are in top 15. If you make it past the short list stage, school won't matter at all. MBB will not be MBB if they pick a student from Sloan instead of a student from Ross just because that he studied in Sloan. Agree that there may be some geographical limitations due to alumni base. These numbers at Fuqua look very decent to me, look at Amazon!!!
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This should clear it up. Wish every program is this transparent. Will just make life easier for us applicants.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 11:02
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whymba909 wrote:
bb
This should clear it up. Wish every program is this transparent. Will just make life easier for us applicants.



Thanks! Fuqua is a larger program which does enjoy the benefits of better recruiting so they are not a great example per se of a smaller school (as discussed in post #3).
To be clear, it appears 392 out of 445 reporting in the school employment report - is that your understanding as well? about 50 people have not reported?
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New post 14 Dec 2017, 11:04
bb wrote:
whymba909 wrote:
bb
This should clear it up. Wish every program is this transparent. Will just make life easier for us applicants.



Thanks! Fuqua is a larger program which does enjoy the benefits of better recruiting so they are not a great example per se of a smaller school (as discussed in post #3).
To be clear, it appears 392 out of 445 reporting in the school employment report - is that your understanding as well? about 50 people have not reported?


I think they are company sponsored, starting new business etc as stated in that table. Agree that Fuqua is not a good example. We will have to look at schools like Tepper and KF. But unfortunately I couldn't gather this kind of data from their employment reports.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 12:01
whymba909 wrote:
bb wrote:
whymba909 wrote:
bb
This should clear it up. Wish every program is this transparent. Will just make life easier for us applicants.



Thanks! Fuqua is a larger program which does enjoy the benefits of better recruiting so they are not a great example per se of a smaller school (as discussed in post #3).
To be clear, it appears 392 out of 445 reporting in the school employment report - is that your understanding as well? about 50 people have not reported?


I think they are company sponsored, starting new business etc as stated in that table. Agree that Fuqua is not a good example. We will have to look at schools like Tepper and KF. But unfortunately I couldn't gather this kind of data from their employment reports.



There is probably some people they could not hear from (e.g. emails got lost, folks were busy, or depressed, or they did not care to reply. There is always a % of folks who did not reply for some reason, right?) If it is 54 out of 445, it is about 10% - makes sense to have 90% survey completion rate - pretty high in my view.
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Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship? [#permalink]

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New post 14 Dec 2017, 15:13
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bb wrote:

The report does not cover 100% of students, it just covers 100% of those who chose to report. When I graduated and struggled finding a good job, I did not report my stats... so you kind of have to look at absolute numbers and speak with current students and alums. I think there are definitely more people who are finding jobs than those who are not, but I am just surprised with the number of those who are not in the last year, vs. previous years (my data is anecdotal and not precise.... but it is a theory :-))


I think this is a much bigger deal than people make of it. Most undergrad institutions boast great stats for employment, but tons and tons of students struggle to find something worthwhile. This was the case for me, I landed a job I could have gotten out of high school and never responded to any surveys from my schools. Most of that was my fault, but I am definitely not alone. Hopefully I do better this time around and do respond ;)
Re: Best MBA For International Applicants? Top 20 vs Top 40 Scholarship?   [#permalink] 14 Dec 2017, 15:13

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