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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.


(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

(C) Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.

(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.

(E) While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932.

Dear experts
egmat AjiteshArun generis

Can we eliminate choice B on the basis of no subject - verb for 1st IC?

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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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sonusaini1 wrote:
Dear experts
egmat AjiteshArun generis

Can we eliminate choice B on the basis of no subject - verb for 1st IC?

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Hi sonusaini1,

This is option B:
Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

Here we have a dependent clause joined to an independent clause using although. This is a pattern that you'll see very often: although (DC), IC. When the although is at the starting of the sentence, we can "understand away" the subject and verb in some cases in the dependent clause.

Although he was unfit, he played the match.
Although he was unfit, he played the match.
Although unfit, he played the match.

We can't do this if the subject is something else entirely:
Although unfit, the match was played by him. ← This is not correct, as it implies that the match was unfit.

What you pointed out works for another dependent clause (the one introduced by where):
... the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932...

Here we need both the subject and verb.
... the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932...
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
can some one explain, What the "THEIR" in option A refers to?
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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"Their" refers to spear points--it's part of the same modifying phrase. Don't go by any outdated rulebooks that say a possessive pronoun can't refer to a non-possessive noun.

However, I notice in scanning the conversation above that there has been a great to-do about whether the later pronoun "they" refers to Clovis points or spear points. Here's a shorter way of thinking about that: since we are using an appositive (one noun modifying another), it's clear that in this case "Clovis points" and "spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces" actually refer to the exact same thing, so it doesn't matter which one we choose! That's also why we don't have to worry about any confusion between "their" and the later "they."
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
KC wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

I have gone through other answers and have found in them different errors in the given choices, but while solving the question I rejected the incorrect options because of some other reasons 'as well'.

GMATNinja VeritasKarishma mikemcgarry daagh If you can please provide your valuable thoughts on them.
Quote:
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

Shouldn't the underlined part say, "where they were first discovered" or at least have a 'comma' before where. Its usage makes more sense in option 'D'
Quote:
(C) Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.

The original sentence specifically says 'onto their faces', in this option that is changed to 'onto the faces'.
Quote:
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.

Again 'onto the faces' instead of 'onto their faces'


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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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Sarjaria84 wrote:
KC wrote:
Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

I have gone through other answers and have found in them different errors in the given choices, but while solving the question I rejected the incorrect options because of some other reasons 'as well'.

GMATNinja VeritasKarishma mikemcgarry daagh If you can please provide your valuable thoughts on them.
Quote:
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

Shouldn't the underlined part say, "where they were first discovered" or at least have a 'comma' before where. Its usage makes more sense in option 'D'
Quote:
(C) Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America.

The original sentence specifically says 'onto their faces', in this option that is changed to 'onto the faces'.
Quote:
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.

Again 'onto the faces' instead of 'onto their faces'


Thanks
Saurabh


Option (B), you are right. 'Where' clause is missing the subject and verb. Same issue is in (D) too.

Options (C) and (D), 'onto their faces' or 'onto the faces' isn't a deal breaker. I would prefer 'onto their faces' for better clarity but 'onto the faces' is also fine.
Bigger problem in (C) is 'have been first discovered in 1932'. It should be 'were first discovered in 1932'. Present perfect implies a connect to the present though we are explicitly talking about the first discovery. It is done and dusted already.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
In option A
A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932. Correct. No errors.

Is there any fragment here or are the clauses present here not independent. I am getting confused with comma splice situation??

In option D
D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.Incorrect.
1. There is only one verb for "Spear points??????. But still the choice is using ???but???. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error.

What is the verb issue here?? The first phrase has chipped as a verb right and this phrase is referring to Clovis points. Again, are all the clauses independent or is there any issue of fragment here??
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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ssshyam1995 wrote:
In option A
A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932. Correct. No errors.

Is there any fragment here or are the clauses present here not independent. I am getting confused with comma splice situation??

In option D
D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.Incorrect.
1. There is only one verb for "Spear points??????. But still the choice is using ???but???. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error.

What is the verb issue here?? The first phrase has chipped as a verb right and this phrase is referring to Clovis points. Again, are all the clauses independent or is there any issue of fragment here??

To make (A) easier to analyze, let's take out the information between the first two commas for a moment:

"(A) Even though Clovis points... have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932." - No problem! The first clause is not independent, so this is fine. The part we removed ("spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces") is just some additional, comma-separated information modifying the Clovis points.

Quote:
(D) Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.

  • "that are chipped" modifies grooves
  • "with longitudinal grooves" modifies "Spear points"
  • "even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932" is not an independent clause -- this is just one big additional modifier.

So we basically have: "Spear points [a bunch of modifying stuff], but were found...".

This construction doesn't work because the sentence only has one main verb (were found), and it's in a dependent clause. We could say, "Spear points were buried but were found..." In that case, "but" would link the two verbs ("were buried" and "were found"). However, we cannot say, "Spear points... but were found all over North America," since "spear points" needs and deserves its own verb.

I hope that helps!

Originally posted by GMATNinja on 23 Nov 2019, 09:14.
Last edited by GMATNinjaTwo on 19 Mar 2020, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.
fixed typo
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
Here in option B although is used, it is a subordinating conjunction but there is no clause ,is it enough to eliminate the answer choice here ?
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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SantoshN wrote:
Here in option B although is used, it is a subordinating conjunction but there is no clause ,is it enough to eliminate the answer choice here ?

Hi SantoshN, the clause may be implied in such situations and so, absence of an explicit clause after although is not enough to eliminate an answer choice.

An officially correct option of similar nature:

Although eradicated in the United States, polio continues elsewhere and could be brought into the country by visitors.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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SantoshN wrote:
Here in option B although is used, it is a subordinating conjunction but there is no clause ,is it enough to eliminate the answer choice here ?



Hello SantoshN,


Here is a little grammar nuance behind why when we can keep a subject-verb pair = a clause understood after the word although.

When the subject-verb pair after although and the main clause remains the same, then this common SV pair can be kept understood after although to avoid repetition.

For example: Although (the room is) small, it looks spacious.

Official example 1: Although (polio has been eradicated) in the United States, polio continues elsewhere and could be brought into the country by visitors.

This official sentence: Although (Clovis points have been) named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America. (Choice B)



Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
here named could be participle , In OG 2019 question 722 , it is mention that although should be followed by finite clause with a subject not by a participle
Can you please explain more about when we can eliminate the choice on this basis ?

OG- Although covering the entire planet, Earth has a crust
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
egmat wrote:
Hi there,

Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been round all over north America ,they are named for the new Mexico site where whey were first discovered in 1932.

The contrast set by the original sentence is that Clovis Points have been found in all over the North America, but they are named for the New Mexico where they were first discovered in 1932. This contrast is correct.

So let’s proceed to the PoE now:

A. Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932. Correct. No errors.

B. Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America. Incorrect.
Notice the contrast this choice presents. It says although CPs are named for New Mexico site where…, they are spear points. This is not the intended contrast. The contrast is between where they have been found and for what they have been named. This sentence presents the contrast that says they are named for NM site but they look like this.

C. Named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto the faces, have been found all over North America. Incorrect.

1. Use of present perfect tense “have been discovered” is incorrect to refer to an action that took place in 1932.

2. This sentence does not present any contrast.

D. Spear points with longitudinal grooves that are chipped onto the faces, Clovis points, even though named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, but were found all over North America.Incorrect.
1. There is only one verb for "Spear points…”. But still the choice is using “but”. This means there should be another verb here. Absence of this verb leads to fragment error.

E. While Clovis points are spear points whose faces have longitudinal grooves chipped into them, they have been found all over North America, and named for the New Mexico site where they have been first discovered in 1932. Incorrect.

1. Per this sentence, the contrast is that CPs are spear points but they have been found all over the North America and are named for the NM site. This certainly is not the intended contrast.

Take Away

1. Understand the context of the sentence very well. Carefully notice the contrasts or comparisons made.

2. Assess if those contrasts or comparisons are logical or not.

3. Once you get the intended logical meaning, do the POE to find out which answer choice conveys the intended meaning in the best way.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks
Shraddha


is/are + V2 form of verb
is named

What kind of verb form is it ?
I mean present prefect or past tense etc. ?
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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Harsh2111s When we use a past participle such as "named," it is working as a modifier, not a verb, so it has no tense at all. "Are named" is in the present tense, just as "are green" is in the present tense, because of the verb "are" alone.
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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SantoshN wrote:
here named could be participle , In OG 2019 question 722 , it is mention that although should be followed by finite clause with a subject not by a participle
Can you please explain more about when we can eliminate the choice on this basis ?

OG- Although covering the entire planet, Earth has a crust

Sadly, there is no black and white rule that you can blindly apply in these situations. Just because a construction works in one correct answer choice doesn't mean that construction is always correct (and just because a construction doesn't work in an incorrect answer choice doesn't mean that it's always wrong).

That's what makes GMAT SC so hard: you can't memorize your way out of it. Instead, you have to think really hard about the meaning in each and every individual sentence. Take choices (A) and (B), for example:

Quote:
(A) Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America, they are named for the New Mexico site where they were first discovered in 1932.

Here, the use of "even though" makes sense. DESPITE THE FACT that Clovis points have been found all over North America, they are named for the site where they were first discovered.

The use of "even though" correctly implies some sort of contrast between the area in which Clovis points are found (North America) and the place for which they are named (the New Mexico site). In other words, EVEN THOUGH the name only refers to some site in New Mexico, Clovis points have actually been found all over North America.

Compare that to choice (B):

Quote:
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

This basically means, "Clovis points ARE spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped ALTHOUGH they are named for the site where they were first discovered."

Think about that for a moment. "Clovis points ARE spear points DESPITE THE FACT that they are named for the site..."? There is no contrast between the NAMING of the Clovis points and what the Clovis points actually ARE. So the use of "although" simply doesn't make any sense.

This is, admittedly, a subtle and tricky point. But that's the GMAT for you: you have to practice thinking really hard about the meaning of these sentences.

Trying to come up with an ever-growing list of rules will prevent you from thinking about meaning -- and, unfortunately, that endless list of "rules" probably won't help you improve your score much.

I hope this helps a bit!
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
I get the points and explanations given.
So, while presenting a contrast or a comparison between two things needs to be parallel i.e. apple vic-a-vis apple contrast/comparison.

Hence, can I write option B as:
Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America.

Is that correct.? If not why?

I understand that if it is correct two options would be correct but just trying to be clear.

GMATNinja wrote:
Compare that to choice (B):

Quote:
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

This basically means, "Clovis points ARE spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped ALTHOUGH they are named for the site where they were first discovered."

Think about that for a moment. "Clovis points ARE spear points DESPITE THE FACT that they are named for the site..."? There is no contrast between the NAMING of the Clovis points and what the Clovis points actually ARE. So the use of "although" simply doesn't make any sense.

This is, admittedly, a subtle and tricky point. But that's the GMAT for you: you have to practice thinking really hard about the meaning of these sentences.

Trying to come up with an ever-growing list of rules will prevent you from thinking about meaning -- and, unfortunately, that endless list of "rules" probably won't help you improve your score much.

I hope this helps a bit!
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Re: Even though Clovis points, spear points with longitudinal grooves chip [#permalink]
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lnm87 wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
Compare that to choice (B):

Quote:
(B) Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points are spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces and have been found all over North America.

This basically means, "Clovis points ARE spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped ALTHOUGH they are named for the site where they were first discovered."

Think about that for a moment. "Clovis points ARE spear points DESPITE THE FACT that they are named for the site..."? There is no contrast between the NAMING of the Clovis points and what the Clovis points actually ARE. So the use of "although" simply doesn't make any sense.

This is, admittedly, a subtle and tricky point. But that's the GMAT for you: you have to practice thinking really hard about the meaning of these sentences.

Trying to come up with an ever-growing list of rules will prevent you from thinking about meaning -- and, unfortunately, that endless list of "rules" probably won't help you improve your score much.

I hope this helps a bit!

I get the points and explanations given.
So, while presenting a contrast or a comparison between two things needs to be parallel i.e. apple vic-a-vis apple contrast/comparison.

Hence, can I write option B as:
Although named for the New Mexico site where first discovered in 1932, Clovis points, spear points of longitudinal grooves chipped onto their faces, have been found all over North America.

Is that correct.? If not why?

I understand that if it is correct two options would be correct but just trying to be clear.

I think you have the right idea here... you are saying that the Clovis points are NAMED after a specific state (New Mexico) even though they have been FOUND all over the continent. That makes sense.

But, in general, I wouldn't waste many brain cells trying to analyze modified versions of answer choices. Your job isn't to label each sentence as "wrong" or "right"... your job is to pick the best choice out of the five available options. Looking at modified versions of answer choices changes that job completely. :)
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