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asimov
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 13:26
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ariz3260
I second this. I can't speak for India, but for China, the career trajectory is very linear: get excellent grade, accepted into prestigious schools, graduated with honor and work for prestigious local firms, get promotions... you get the picture. The only definition of "success" is base solely on how well one performs academically. A person is measured based on definable metrics (score a 97 out of 100) and not soft skills (communication ability, leadership, inventiveness, work experience, volunteerism, etc). And it is with this same mindset many Chinese applicants have when they apply for bschools aboard. While their academic and numbers measure up, they usually have very little to offer when they are asked the question "How will you use the skills acquire in bschool to improve the world". Don't get me wrong, with enough training I think everyone can come up with a good enough token response to put on their essays, but in general they are not train to think in that way. The environment just isn't there to encourage such thinking, instead it is "good grade = success" and they go on to lead successful lives
Show more
While I do agree that a well-rounded candidate is better, because one’s success is not determined purely by smarts, but rather the ability drive results. However, this is also a rather Western view. From a personal perspective, I feel it is culturally insensitive to impose a western standard on a different culture. The Asian countries have been developing their own talent pipeline for ages. An argument for pure number based competition is that, our personality, creativity, and leadership is mostly innate – nature rather than nurture. In this case, they are just funneling talent differently. Filter once for the best classroom performers, and let the competition on the job to filter those who have leadership abilities. In the Western world, we filter with interview, which is imperfect and can be gamed. Either way, everything we do is a proxy.

I really like all these healthy conversation regarding different proxy for talent. However, the core of the original argument is still that “diversity” has become the modern politically “correct” way to segregate and discriminate. I think it is very hard to argument that “diversity” target isn’t discrimination, when by definition it is creating preferential treatment for different groups.

This discrimination has long lasting consequence – the bamboo ceiling. While the elite schools have a healthy share of Asians for a few decades now, this mix does not translate into top management (partners at firms). I really doubt that all these generations of highly education and ambitious Asians lack the softer skills to succeed. Like it or not, the top level is still pretty much an old boys club. I can feel it here at Fuqua. To think otherwise is naïve. In order change that, there needs to be real diversity and integration of culture and thought, and not just lip service.

I find it ironic that b-schools want to look beyond the numbers in its applicants, but fail to look beyond its own “diversity” numbers.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 13:37
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Luffy
In my opinion international students should feel privileged for the spots they get, for every every such spot takes away from an American. The Chinese have our debt and manufacturing, the Indians have our IT and manufacturing; the only thing separating us from them is our research know-how and great higher educational institutions, two competitive advantages that could quickly evaporate if we give them away to the highest international bidder much like we've already done with our debt, IT and manufacturing. If we moved all our companies back from these three sectors, can you imagine how much better off our country would be? How many more jobs we would have?
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This just took it back to the protectionist era, maybe even early. I know of a country long ago. It had the dominate economy and technology of its time. It took a protectionist strategy and isolated itself. The world moved on with new innovations. And the country was left behind. That country was China.

One of the key competitive advantages of America is its ability to attract talent. Many of the great entrepreneurs are foreign born or one generation removed. You take away that pipeline, America isn’t left with much.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 13:38
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I, too, have lived in 3 countries (one including an Asian country) but the generalization that "goodbyeboy" makes is ridiculous. Yes, there are differences in cultures between Asia and non-asian countries, but that doesn't mean there are few great leaders in Asia. Also, the issues in Asia is not isolated, but universal. I am definitely not so much of a fan of condescending statements that "goodbyeboy" made about Asia...

Anyways, going back to the topic. It is true that the % of Asian admits are going down. I am sure that the MBA schools have their reasons. I'd guess that their logic would be something like this: why get Rondo, when you already have CP3, Parker, Westbrook, D. Williams and D. Rose in your line up? I'd much rather get T. Duncan on my team with so many players at PG. Despite the age and lower stats, T. Duncan will be a better fit in my team than another great PG.
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I'm sorry, but which part of the things I wrote do you find condescending and ridiculous?

Also, what do differences in culture between Asia and non-asian countries have to do with this? I don't think I ever made comparisons between Asian culture and others and made a statement that that's why there are few great leaders in Asia....so please enlighten me on this one.

Sure I'm sure this certainly is an universal issue to a certain extent. However, I'm sure you are aware that this issue translate down to Asia particularly more than any other regions in the world. I'm not sure what your background is exactly, but since you were educated in 3 countries as you say, including Asia, you know what I am talking about. That's all I was saying on my previous posts.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 13:57
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ariz3260
I second this. I can't speak for India, but for China, the career trajectory is very linear: get excellent grade, accepted into prestigious schools, graduated with honor and work for prestigious local firms, get promotions... you get the picture. The only definition of "success" is base solely on how well one performs academically. A person is measured based on definable metrics (score a 97 out of 100) and not soft skills (communication ability, leadership, inventiveness, work experience, volunteerism, etc). And it is with this same mindset many Chinese applicants have when they apply for bschools aboard. While their academic and numbers measure up, they usually have very little to offer when they are asked the question "How will you use the skills acquire in bschool to improve the world". Don't get me wrong, with enough training I think everyone can come up with a good enough token response to put on their essays, but in general they are not train to think in that way. The environment just isn't there to encourage such thinking, instead it is "good grade = success" and they go on to lead successful lives
While I do agree that a well-rounded candidate is better, because one’s success is not determined purely by smarts, but rather the ability drive results. However, this is also a rather Western view. From a personal perspective, I feel it is culturally insensitive to impose a western standard on a different culture. The Asian countries have been developing their own talent pipeline for ages. An argument for pure number based competition is that, our personality, creativity, and leadership is mostly innate – nature rather than nurture. In this case, they are just funneling talent differently. Filter once for the best classroom performers, and let the competition on the job to filter those who have leadership abilities. In the Western world, we filter with interview, which is imperfect and can be gamed. Either way, everything we do is a proxy.

I really like all these healthy conversation regarding different proxy for talent. However, the core of the original argument is still that “diversity” has become the modern politically “correct” way to segregate and discriminate. I think it is very hard to argument that “diversity” target isn’t discrimination, when by definition it is creating preferential treatment for different groups.

This discrimination has long lasting consequence – the bamboo ceiling. While the elite schools have a healthy share of Asians for a few decades now, this mix does not translate into top management (partners at firms). I really doubt that all these generations of highly education and ambitious Asians lack the softer skills to succeed. Like it or not, the top level is still pretty much an old boys club. I can feel it here at Fuqua. To think otherwise is naïve. In order change that, there needs to be real diversity and integration of culture and thought, and not just lip service.

I find it ironic that b-schools want to look beyond the numbers in its applicants, but fail to look beyond its own “diversity” numbers.
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I agree with you on this one to a certain extent. Interesting perspective on imposing a western standard on a different culture. However, let's not forget that that is the very reason why B-schools are attracting so many applicants from certain regions in the world, to learn a western standard of business and doing things. After all, they are b-schools in the states and the students are making sacrifices and decisions to learn and appreciate "other" ways of thinking.

Each school has its tradition and unique strengths that attract applicants - and I think applicants have choices. If they want more of an international-friendly learning environment, perhaps they can look at international business schools in Europe. I don't think it'd be possible for a school to cater differently to different culture group, and I don't know if they should. I can't obviously speak for Fuqua since I don't know much about the school, those western values, which are just as important as valuable in the business word, are looked down if not ignored in regions some applicants come from, as I mentioned on my previous posts. That's why they feel the need to educate themselves in a different mindset and perspective to make themselves competitive.

I agree that the word diversity is a double sided sword. I personally wish that there are more spaces for everyone, but the bottom line is that the space is limited and the competition is getting fiercer....and I think it's up to school to decide how much "diversity" they want in their schools.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 14:03
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I meant "education system" by saying "culture". my apologies

I find your statement about how Asian education systems force students to study 20hrs a day etc, leaving out other qualities (creativity, leadership) inappropriate. I understand that there are social pressures to do so, but there are people/students outside the box. I guess that you were in that crowd (pressure to study a lot and do nothing else), and I was in it as well. However, there are still many who live outside the box which we once lived in. and many of those who are applying for selected MBA programs have something they can offer, whether they are from Asia or from other places. Trust me on this; those who are willing to study/spend 2 years abroad are not your average individuals you described..

I understand your angle of critique, but you should know there are many different angles to the matter...


goodbyeboy
jongchan
I, too, have lived in 3 countries (one including an Asian country) but the generalization that "goodbyeboy" makes is ridiculous. Yes, there are differences in cultures between Asia and non-asian countries, but that doesn't mean there are few great leaders in Asia. Also, the issues in Asia is not isolated, but universal. I am definitely not so much of a fan of condescending statements that "goodbyeboy" made about Asia...

Anyways, going back to the topic. It is true that the % of Asian admits are going down. I am sure that the MBA schools have their reasons. I'd guess that their logic would be something like this: why get Rondo, when you already have CP3, Parker, Westbrook, D. Williams and D. Rose in your line up? I'd much rather get T. Duncan on my team with so many players at PG. Despite the age and lower stats, T. Duncan will be a better fit in my team than another great PG.

I'm sorry, but which part of the things I wrote do you find condescending and ridiculous?

Also, what do differences in culture between Asia and non-asian countries have to do with this? I don't think I ever made comparisons between Asian culture and others and made a statement that that's why there are few great leaders in Asia....so please enlighten me on this one.

Sure I'm sure this certainly is an universal issue to a certain extent. However, I'm sure you are aware that this issue translate down to Asia particularly more than any other regions in the world. I'm not sure what your background is exactly, but since you were educated in 3 countries as you say, including Asia, you know what I am talking about. That's all I was saying on my previous posts.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 14:13
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Quote:
I meant "education system" by saying "culture". my apologies

I find your statement about how Asian education systems force students to study 20hrs a day etc, leaving out other qualities (creativity, leadership) inappropriate. I understand that there are social pressures to do so, but there are people/students outside the box. I guess that you were in that crowd (pressure to study a lot and do nothing else), and I was in it as well. However, there are still many who live outside the box which we once lived in. and many of those who are applying for selected MBA programs have something they can offer, whether they are from Asia or from other places. Trust me on this; those who are willing to study/spend 2 years abroad are not your average individuals you described..

I understand your angle of critique, but you should know there are many different angles to the matter...
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Thank you for clarifying. Unfortunately, my statement stays true. You said it yourself - this really happens and you were in that as well. However, I think I made it absolutely clear that there indeed are people outside the box who succeed and nurture their skills and attributes through all that, and they are the ones that business schools want and I want to study with.

Those who are willing to study and spend 2 years abroad are not your average individuals you described - I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I've been studying and living abroad for 11 years and I've met so many people getting lost after spending a decade abroad. While there are exceptional individuals that know exactly what they want from studying abroad, there are thousands of others who are simply lost and don't know what they are doing. Just because one is willing to study 2 years (it's not that long, trust me) abroad doesn't make them superior.

Thank you for your angle of critique and I appreciate your clarification.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 14:20
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Sorry I have to disagree again on your disagreement on my statement. I spent 14 years abroad, and I have met numerous lost souls as you have had. People go abroad when they can't make good decisions ruin their lives easily. But for MBA applicants with a bachelor's (or with with advanced) degrees with 3-7 years of FT work exp. in the home country, spending 2 years abroad and spending that much $$$ is not your average Joe's decision. The decision doesn't come easy, and I believe they believe they have something they can offer and receive during MBA.

I think we are getting off topic.
My last 2cents on this.

goodbyeboy
Quote:
I meant "education system" by saying "culture". my apologies

I find your statement about how Asian education systems force students to study 20hrs a day etc, leaving out other qualities (creativity, leadership) inappropriate. I understand that there are social pressures to do so, but there are people/students outside the box. I guess that you were in that crowd (pressure to study a lot and do nothing else), and I was in it as well. However, there are still many who live outside the box which we once lived in. and many of those who are applying for selected MBA programs have something they can offer, whether they are from Asia or from other places. Trust me on this; those who are willing to study/spend 2 years abroad are not your average individuals you described..

I understand your angle of critique, but you should know there are many different angles to the matter...

Thank you for clarifying. Unfortunately, my statement stays true. You said it yourself - this really happens and you were in that as well. However, I think I made it absolutely clear that there indeed are people outside the box who succeed and nurture their skills and attributes through all that, and they are the ones that business schools want and I want to study with.

Those who are willing to study and spend 2 years abroad are not your average individuals you described - I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I've been studying and living abroad for 11 years and I've met so many people getting lost after spending a decade abroad. While there are exceptional individuals that know exactly what they want from studying abroad, there are thousands of others who are simply lost and don't know what they are doing. Just because one is willing to study 2 years (it's not that long, trust me) abroad doesn't make them superior.

Thank you for your angle of critique and I appreciate your clarification.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 16:06
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Quote:
Sorry I have to disagree again on your disagreement on my statement. I spent 14 years abroad, and I have met numerous lost souls as you have had. People go abroad when they can't make good decisions ruin their lives easily. But for MBA applicants with a bachelor's (or with with advanced) degrees with 3-7 years of FT work exp. in the home country, spending 2 years abroad and spending that much $$$ is not your average Joe's decision. The decision doesn't come easy, and I believe they believe they have something they can offer and receive during MBA.

I think we are getting off topic.
My last 2cents on this.
Show more

Agreed, so here are my last 2 cents on this as well. Reality is that we all believe that we have something unique to offer on the table - turns out that everyone else does. I am not sure if a bachelor's degrees with 3-7 years of FT work experience in the home country guarantees that they're making the right decision to pursue their MBA degree or they have what it takes to pursue their MBA degree.

Unfortunately, difficult decision doesn't always mean right decision, and it turns out that people make bad decision that ruin their lives easily ALL the time, regardless of their age, education or career progress. But hey, you can agree or disagree. :)
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 16:23
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We are getting off topic here, but I feel this has been a very fruitful discussion and I like to add in my final thoughts here:

-While I agree there are well rounded and balance individuals in Asia who are able to ascent beyond the academia, I think the majority of them are not. While it would be great for them to get a westernize education to learn about the soft skills that are needed to be successful in business, I would think the adcom might shy away from such candidates because the businness schools are looking for people who have shown potential to be leader/innovator/game changer and to further augment those skills, and not to educate the folks who realize they lack such skills and want to learn these skills for the first time during their MBA. While it is a noble sentiment, I don't see the (promiment) business schools doing this purely for educational purpose: they want people with a proven track record of success who'll be able to come running right out of the gate, not someone they'll need to do a lot of hand holding

-While rigorious in nature, education in China does not educate people about soft skills. I would say that folks with great management/leadership skills in the region did not pick up such skills in a formal educational setting, but rather a product of their own innate ability, innitative, and circumstances

-With the advent of technology/internet access, I think more and more people in China who want to pursue an MBA now realize they need to go beyond academia to be able to make it in the western society. But beyond business, I think we still have to agree that for a majority of other disciplines, it still comes down to how well one can perform academically over soft skills. Fields such as Law, Medicines, Architecture, Engineering, Computers, etc. still want people with good grades. It is only when people move up into the management where they'll want to develop the soft skills that are necessary for those management position. Even then, the ability to manage/lead still tend to get overlook since it is not a prerequisite for them to attain their positions, but this is definitely a discussion for another time

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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 19:25
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This thread has gotten entirely off topic as we've managed to malign many different groups across different metrics.

Honestly, this thread was posted by an admissions consultant to drum up business for R2 and R3 not to assess why there are either too few or too many Asians in top US b-schools. The point is that it's a competitive pool and applicants within this pool must find a way to stand out. The best way to do this beyond GPA/GMAT is through work experience, ECs, and recommendations. Most importantly is how all of these things are presented. It's the people who can present themselves in a memorable and compelling manner that get the interviews and acceptances. I think that applicants that are accustomed to selling themselves are able to do so in their applications and thus gain admission to at least one school (remember, all you need is ONE). This thread is simply trying to drum up business from the applicants who haven't been as successful in doing so.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 29 Dec 2011, 21:18
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Why are people discussing this? This is getting ugly. People must understand that it's American Schools and it's up to them whom they want to admit. Yes, minority and diversity play against people who are from India and China, but don't blame Americans. We have great colleges in India - IIM's, ISB, etc. I am sure China has its own list of great schools. Chinese are very smart people, and they for sure are a great success story.

It is the responsibility of any nation to take care of its population first. It makes sense to have more guys with great scores in technical schools, but when it comes to business schools, unless you are a school that wants to produce Wall St. honchos, it makes a lot of sense to hire "local candidates". But stop the hypocrisy and stop pretending that a guy with 690(a native speaker) is better than a guy with 720(a non-native speaker) in terms of score and candidacy, provided most of the things are same. The non-native speaker came and beat you on your home turf.

Most of people are great to jump to conclusion that Indian and Chinese don't have the overall education system and well rounded personality. Just take a look as TV ads in India and China and then compare them with TV ads in US. Even such things speak volumes about Indian and Chinese not having "well rounded" education. These guys just shoot from their hips without ever having traveled or lived in these countries. People in these "Indian IT companies" have played roles and responsibilities that most Americans would dream of even after passing out of their dream colleges.

GMAT is an American test that places too much of emphasis on American pattern of English. You can see how skewed it is by the focus it places on verbal scores. Still, these guys from "backward international silos" come and beat you in your own game and on your home turf. You must give the credit when it is really deserved.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it Updated on: 30 Dec 2011, 22:33
Originally posted by Anasthaesium on 30 Dec 2011, 22:29.
Last edited by Anasthaesium on 30 Dec 2011, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.
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whocares
Why are people discussing this? This is getting ugly. People must understand that it's American Schools and it's up to them whom they want to admit. Yes, minority and diversity play against people who are from India and China, but don't blame Americans. We have great colleges in India - IIM's, ISB, etc. I am sure China has its own list of great schools. Chinese are very smart people, and they for sure are a great success story.

It is the responsibility of any nation to take care of its population first. It makes sense to have more guys with great scores in technical schools, but when it comes to business schools, unless you are a school that wants to produce Wall St. honchos, it makes a lot of sense to hire "local candidates". But stop the hypocrisy and stop pretending that a guy with 690(a native speaker) is better than a guy with 720(a non-native speaker) in terms of score and candidacy, provided most of the things are same. The non-native speaker came and beat you on your home turf.

Most of people are great to jump to conclusion that Indian and Chinese don't have the overall education system and well rounded personality. Just take a look as TV ads in India and China and then compare them with TV ads in US. Even such things speak volumes about Indian and Chinese not having "well rounded" education. These guys just shoot from their hips without ever having traveled or lived in these countries. People in these "Indian IT companies" have played roles and responsibilities that most Americans would dream of even after passing out of their dream colleges.

GMAT is an American test that places too much of emphasis on American pattern of English. You can see how skewed it is by the focus it places on verbal scores. Still, these guys from "backward international silos" come and beat you in your own game and on your home turf. You must give the credit when it is really deserved.
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Wait. Let me get this straight.
With a handle that says "whocares", you join a couple of days back, enter the discussion at its peak and make exactly one post about it and expect to be taken seriously? really now?

Some of us have traveled to 30+ different countries on 4 different continents and worked with at least eight nationalities. No, we dont shoot from our hips, so to speak.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 30 Dec 2011, 22:30
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Luffy
Asians in general are overrepresented in business school, both from a domestic and international standpoint.

America benefits when its best institutions admit primarily from its own population, preferring Americans over internationals. Universities abiding by this principle draw from the grassroots of the country and provide them the greatest share of the opportunities that their collective generational hard work has wrought. With a population of around 300 million it is hard to see America maintaining a competitive edge over growing economies who have a combined 2+ billion population. The numbers just don't stack up well for Americans this coming century and universities already know that.

No one wants to see our best schools become backward international silos removed from mainstream America. Such a school would be commonplace in Dubai, not here. If you have a problem with American hiring and educating American, you should speak to the Chinese and Indian who the same thing with their own populations.

In my opinion international students should feel privileged for the spots they get, for every every such spot takes away from an American. The Chinese have our debt and manufacturing, the Indians have our IT and manufacturing; the only thing separating us from them is our research know-how and great higher educational institutions, two competitive advantages that could quickly evaporate if we give them away to the highest international bidder much like we've already done with our debt, IT and manufacturing. If all our companies returned to America, they would make less profit but we would have more jobs.

I'm tired of these globalists bankrupting our country with this "everybody wins" bullshit. Such demagogic "this isn't a one zero sum game" platitudes worked when we tipped the scales in our favor like the Chinese are doing now with manipulated currency, corporate espionage and low wages. It only worked when we were one of the few nations with running water. Now more people have running water and we've stopped being protectionist, so things have changed and we need to change with them:

75% of admitted students should be American and plan to live in America for at least 10 years. Given our highly educated populace, we can manage a high quality body with much problem. 1 in 4 internationals in more than enough to reap the benefits of their diversity and life experience.
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Yeah. Thats exactly how business schools should be run.
IF KARL MARX FOUNDED IT !!!!
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 31 Dec 2011, 14:08
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Anasthaesium
With a handle that says "whocares", you join a couple of days back, enter the discussion at its peak and make exactly one post about it and expect to be taken seriously? really now?
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Let's play nice now. Everyone has a point of view. I think whocares points out some good points.

Also, I doubt whocares is a lurker. whocares and Luffy, joined on the day of their respective posting. More likely than not, they are current active members, who choose to remain anonymous for this controversial subject.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 31 Dec 2011, 14:40
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Asimov, you got it right. I just don't want to offend the people, but in this discussion, there is no other way to make people understand. I see a lot of guys are too opinionated to see other perspective. I don't like POV pushers. People can post what they like, but reality won't change.

Who cares whether someone takes me seriously or not. There are no points for winners. GMAT is a very one sided test and it places too much emphasis on English. If we can beat you on your home turf, understand what we are capable of.

:idea: Either you can keep your eyes closed and keep on believing what you want to believe, or you can see what's the reality. In the end, who cares.

:twisted:
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 31 Dec 2011, 20:31
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whocares
Asimov, you got it right. I just don't want to offend the people, but in this discussion, there is no other way to make people understand. I see a lot of guys are too opinionated to see other perspective. I don't like POV pushers. People can post what they like, but reality won't change.

Who cares whether someone takes me seriously or not. There are no points for winners. GMAT is a very one sided test and it places too much emphasis on English. If we can beat you on your home turf, understand what we are capable of.

:idea: Either you can keep your eyes closed and keep on believing what you want to believe, or you can see what's the reality. In the end, who cares.

:twisted:
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I agree with some of what you have to say, but again, not in the delivery. Also, you have made it abundantly clear you don't care, yet you a) took the trouble to create a new ID for this thread and b) left two fairly elaborate posts (one, after asking the question "why are people discussing this?"!). I'm sorry but I had to point out the irony.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 31 Dec 2011, 21:37
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I agree with some of what you have to say, but again, not in the delivery. Also, you have made it abundantly clear you don't care, yet you a) took the trouble to create a new ID for this thread and b) left two fairly elaborate posts (one, after asking the question "why are people discussing this?"!). I'm sorry but I had to point out the irony.
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Good that we agree to disagree. What upset me were phrases such as these:
[*]While rigorious in nature, education in China does not educate people about soft skills
[*]No one wants to see our best schools become backward international silos removed from mainstream America
[*]Chinese are doing now with manipulated currency, corporate espionage and low wages

After seeing the responses to my post that does seem to hit a nerve, the phrase at hand is "ad hominem" :!:

The reason to create the Id has been made abundantly clear. The reason for "why are we discussing it" is that some guys needs to know the other side and need to wake up before someone else eats their "lunch, dinner, and breakfast" - to quote asimov.

I have traveled extensively and worked in all continents except the coldest one, and I can say without doubt that most of the Americans I work with are among the best people I have ever come across, but it's very difficult to keep silent when 'people start shooting from the hip'.

Some guys posting here need to understand that next time, they see an Indian or Chinese or for that matter any other alien(the term used by US to refer to foreigners), don't judge the book by its cover.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 01 Jan 2012, 12:35
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I didn't plan to comment further in this topic, but after reading some of the newer comments since my last post I felt it necessary to clear things up.

asimov

While I do agree that a well-rounded candidate is better, because one’s success is not determined purely by smarts, but rather the ability drive results. However, this is also a rather Western view. From a personal perspective, I feel it is culturally insensitive to impose a western standard on a different culture. The Asian countries have been developing their own talent pipeline for ages. An argument for pure number based competition is that, our personality, creativity, and leadership is mostly innate – nature rather than nurture. In this case, they are just funneling talent differently. Filter once for the best classroom performers, and let the competition on the job to filter those who have leadership abilities. In the Western world, we filter with interview, which is imperfect and can be gamed. Either way, everything we do is a proxy.
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I agree with this

asimov

I really like all these healthy conversation regarding different proxy for talent.
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As do I :)

asimov

However, the core of the original argument is still that “diversity” has become the modern politically “correct” way to segregate and discriminate. I think it is very hard to argument that “diversity” target isn’t discrimination, when by definition it is creating preferential treatment for different groups.

This discrimination has long lasting consequence – the bamboo ceiling. While the elite schools have a healthy share of Asians for a few decades now, this mix does not translate into top management (partners at firms). I really doubt that all these generations of highly education and ambitious Asians lack the softer skills to succeed. Like it or not, the top level is still pretty much an old boys club. I can feel it here at Fuqua. To think otherwise is naïve. In order change that, there needs to be real diversity and integration of culture and thought, and not just lip service.

I find it ironic that b-schools want to look beyond the numbers in its applicants, but fail to look beyond its own “diversity” numbers.

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I never dispute the fact that there are successful Asians and that they lack the necessary soft skills to succeed. I am merely pointing out that the soft skills that are often value so highly in the Western cultures were typically not taught in schools in Asia.

Also, I made no attempt to explain the "diversity" aspect of how bschool choose to go about selecting incoming students And regardless of the outcome, I am actually glad that in the Western society we are even allow to debate the merit of "diversity" and what should constitute an acceptable metrics in measuring possible candidates. It is not a subject matter that is debatable in the Eastern culture, nor have I seen any attempt in doing so

whocares


Good that we agree to disagree. What upset me were phrases such as these:
[*]While rigorious in nature, education in China does not educate people about soft skills
[*]No one wants to see our best schools become backward international silos removed from mainstream America
[*]Chinese are doing now with manipulated currency, corporate espionage and low wages
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I do not endorse the second and third opinions expressed here

whocares

After seeing the responses to my post that does seem to hit a nerve, the phrase at hand is "ad hominem" :!:

The reason to create the Id has been made abundantly clear. The reason for "why are we discussing it" is that some guys needs to know the other side and need to wake up before someone else eats their "lunch, dinner, and breakfast" - to quote asimov.

I have traveled extensively and worked in all continents except the coldest one, and I can say without doubt that most of the Americans I work with are among the best people I have ever come across, but it's very difficult to keep silent when 'people start shooting from the hip'.

Some guys posting here need to understand that next time, they see an Indian or Chinese or for that matter any other alien(the term used by US to refer to foreigners), don't judge the book by its cover.
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Indeed, people need to know the other side and need to wake up and it is very difficult to keep silent when 'people start shooting from the hip'. I felt it is my duty as someone who was born, raised and educated in Hong Kong up until the second year of high school should come out and discuss what it was like coming from the other side. Hong Kong is as westernize as it could get in the Asia region, and if something isn't being taught or heavily focus (ie: soft skills) there in its educational system I think it is indicative that other less westernize societies are not teaching those skills in their respective countries.

I have been in the US for about 15 years now and I will admit that things might have change since I left, but the conversations I had with people from China seem to confirm my belief that things more and less remain the same, and in a certain extend things have became even more skew to the extreme in their focus on academia. Children in the region even compare the hours they spend on studying AND on tutoring after school, as if it is something they should be proud of.

And I echo the exact same sentiment: don't judge a book by its cover

Cheers
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 01 Jan 2012, 13:54
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Do you think there's also a commonality of thought and background that makes it difficult for applicants from India and China to distinguish themselves? Do the majority of these candidates come from similar professional backgrounds and have similar post MBA goals? If this is the case then it may be less about diversity of ethnicity and more about gathering diversity of thought. Just an idea.
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For Chinese and Indian MBA Applicants, It’s Time to Step it 01 Jan 2012, 16:53
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cheetarah1980
Do you think there's also a commonality of thought and background that makes it difficult for applicants from India and China to distinguish themselves?
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Yes. As I have mentioned, the sheer amount of time every students need to put forth just to maintain their grade is phenomenal. It is not uncommon to see elementary and high school age students, after spending 8-9 hours at school, go straight to mentoring and spend another 3-4 hours to do homework and take up extracurricular work. When I say extracurricular, it is mostly academically related. That means doing additional course work that are not from the school. They are encourage to learn music, drawing, dancing, etc., not with the aim to broaden one's scope, but as a mean to buffer one's resume and gain some points in the eyes of the adcoms. Competition to go to prestigious schools are very fierce, and it is something that many parents began planning even before the child is born. Talk about pressure!

Amid all the studying and more studying, what the education system does not teach (and I dare say to a certain degree, discourage) is to develop one's own thoughts/opinions. There are no show and tell, group projects, debates, developing one's interest other than the pursuit of academic excellence, PE. The teachers expect the kids to sit down, shut up and listen. The only conversations students have with teachers are questions about what is in the book and what was learn in class, and in which there are right and wrong answers. There are no "I think", "why" and "how", there are only "what is correct".

Under such environment, it is not difficult to see why typical students from the region lack the soft skills that are so prevalent in the Western cultures. Imagine how shocked I was when I found out that I had to do presentations in a majority of classes during my high school years here in the states! I never had to do that, and the thought of public speaking literally paralyze me!

cheetarah1980
Do the majority of these candidates come from similar professional backgrounds and have similar post MBA goals?
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This I am not too entirely sure of. I would imagine those who have the desire to pursue an MBA in US or Europe have done their homework and know what they want to do post MBA. The difference is not that great in this regard between the US/Europe and Chinese/Indian applicants IMO

cheetarah1980
If this is the case then it may be less about diversity of ethnicity and more about gathering diversity of thought. Just an idea.
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Again, I never venture onto the subject of diversity in my post. What I have been saying the entire time are solely my critique of the Asian (specifically Hong Kong, and to a lesser extend, mainland China) educational system base on my own experience and my conversations with those who had both lived in the region in the past and currently.

Having said that, it is often difficult for the typical student to be able to adequately develop one's identity since they have been taught to memorize a right or wrong answer, instead of developing one's own thought and questioning why things are the way they are. I am sure there are individuals from the region who are very capable and unique, but I would say their attributes were not a result of schooling (where conformity is enforce) but are probably due to circumstances outside of school (innate ability, personal/work experience, family influence, etc)

Cheers
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