Ivey HBA Top U.S B-school

Question

Hi Alex,

I was wondering if you can tell me how HBS/Wharton/Standford think of Richard Ivey HBA's when applying to these schools? Would Ivey be seen on the same level as a top 10 American school?

And:

1) Has there been a lot students accepted into the aforementioned b-schools from Ivey?
2) Are Canadian citizens really considered international students in the eyes of the ad comm. Or are we just lumped in with the rest of the Americans applicants?
3) From Ivey or another top Canadian school, what would be an acceptable GPA to gain admission into the above schools?
4) I know a lot of McGill and U of T students enter many top business schools becuase of their international presence, how does Ivey stack up to them. Is Ivey put on a higher level becuase it is the best in Canada?
5) Do Ivey students have some sort of advantage in getting into HBS since his/her undergrad was 100% taught in the case method?
6) Since Ivey is a two year program, I did my first two years at a different university. Would only my GPA from Ivey count or will they somehow add in my other GPA from my previous university.

As well, any general feedback for a Canadian planning to apply for Wharton, HBS, and Standford would be greatly appreciated!

Also i think your blogs are great and I look forward in reading some of your newer post.

Thanks alot Alex!

AlexMBAApply · Answer

Amongst adcoms, there really isn't any benchmarking going on comparing Canadian vs. US universities. It's apples vs. oranges really.

Traditionally speaking, at schools like HBS, Stanford and Wharton amongst the Canadian kids the McGill and Queen's alums tended to be overrepresented (around 30-60% or so depending on the year). Not sure if this is a recognition of their pedigree by the US adcoms, or whether it's because these two schools tended to be the few (if only) schools where the banks and consulting firms don't limit their recruiting to commerce grads but would open up their recruiting to arts/sci majors and engineers (like their US counterparts, there's a lot of Canadians who were bankers/consultants pre-MBA). Keep in mind that relatively few Canadian commerce grads (whether its Ivey, Queen's, Laurier, UBC, McGill,etc.) bother applying to an MBA. Of the top of my head most of the Canadians I knew were arts/sci or engineering guys.

In any case, if you really are curious, I do find it amusing that Canadians have an inflated view of their universities' pedigree vs the top US universities. The Canadian system is great as a whole. But they simply can't compete or compare to the resources that the Ivy League and other top private schools like Stanford and MIT.

A more accurate comparison (if you can make a comparison at all) is that the Canadian universities are similar to the top US public universities in terms of resources and reputation. Schools like McGill, Queen's, Toronto, UBC and so forth are more comparable to UCLA, UC-Berkeley, UT-Austin, Virginia, and Michigan.

Ivey undergrad may be hard to get into, great for Canadian recruiting, etc. but if you are really talking about renown outside of Canada, the only university that has it is probably McGill. Queen's undergrad for example is one of the most exclusive and hardest to get into, but its reputation outside of Canada is still behind McGill or even Toronto.

TFN · Answer

thank you very much for your insight!

sdas · Answer

Hello Alex, could you update on the Richard Ivey - their current standings! I am aiming for it, your insights will be of great help.

AlexMBAApply · Answer

Batman, sounds like you go to UofT haha

Anyhow, good luck with that.

Simply put, there is no comparison between the top Canadian schools and the Ivy Leagues (+ MIT/Stanford). It's really no contest in terms of the resources available and the experience. You can say that the Canadian university students are "just as smart" as those in the Ivys/MIT/Stanford, but the quality of the educational experience and the post-grad opportunities are not even in the same league.

As for the difference between American and Canadians applying to school - you are completely misinformed.

But hey, I only do this for a living and have seen thousands of applicants from the US, Canada and around the world for the past eight years. So what do I know?

AlexMBAApply · Answer

Yes, I did.

But I've seen it time and again - those who tend to have more success at getting into the top b-schools are from McGill and Queen's traditionally. This also has to do with recruiting -- the firms that are feeders for top b-schools (mgmt consulting and banking) tend to recruit more heavily at these two schools (and not just for commerce folks, but all students) than they do at Toronto. UBC is similar to Toronto in that respect - yes within Canada they are great schools and with the resources they have will likely surpass both McGill and Queen's but reputations die hard, and recruiting tends to reflect that.

Yes, amongst younger folks the perceptions of schools may be changing, but for many older folks (i.e. recruiters in their 30s and older) still have perceptions that McGill and Queen's are the top schools. Traditionally, those two schools have been disproportionately upper-middle class and wealthy: kids who went to private high schools like UCC, LCC, St. Michael's, St Johns, etc. That's also why recruiting for the plum business jobs tended to focus on these two schools: they are often hiring kids they know (sons/daughters of MPs, execs, etc.). The traditional path is this: go to a private school, then go to an Ivy or if not that McGill/Queen's; after graduation, then either go work (and then apply for H/S/W) or take the MCATs/LSATs and go to UofT for med/law school.

Again, you go to any top tier consulting firm or major investment bank in Toronto - and it's full of Ivy League alums, and McGill/Queen's alums (who may have then went to a top tier US grad school). Again, these are the folks who have more success at getting into the US b-schools, period.

And both US and Canadian universities do have different streams - some US schools have undergrad business schools, others don't; many have engineering programs; there's pre-med, pre-law, etc. The only real difference is that US schools require the SATs.

FrankyB · Answer

The vast majority of Toronto IBD positions at both the junior and senior level are held by Ivey grads. In the US, west coast is almost exclusively Ivey and Queen's is much less than half of NYC Canadian representation. McGill is barely represented in NYC and certainly isn't represented anywhere else in the states. Their Toronto presence is also highly lacking. Also, there are barely any ivy league investment bankers in Toronto, so that's simply false (most Canadian bankers are from Canadian schools). Campus recruiting is strongest at Ivey, followed closely by Queen's, and then McGill (but there's a large gap between Ivey/Queen's and McGill). I am not sure what you're talking about with respect to 30 year old recruiters viewing Queen's/McGill as the top two Canadian schools. For someone who has "seen thousands of applications" and etc. I am confused as to why you don't know what you're talking about. Also, the University of Toronto is more known internationally than any other Canadian school. Americans are probably more familiar with McGill than UofT, but UofT holds significantly more weight in Europe / Asia (particularly Asia).

FYI I'm a QC grad working at a HF in NYC (former investment banker) and my closest friends are at Canadian investment banks and are involved in the recruiting process.

Ivey HBA > Top U.S B-school

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