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# Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits

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Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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Updated on: 16 Nov 2018, 07:16
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Question Stats:

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Project CR Butler:Day 11:Critical Reasoning (CR2)

Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival, there would be no teaching hospitals, because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

Ms. Nakai: I disagree. The medical challenges provided by teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians. This, in turn, enables those hospitals to concentrate on nonroutine cases.

Which of the following, if true, would most strengthen Ms. Nakai’s attempt to refute Mr. Primm’s claim?

(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries.

(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price.

(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies.

(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high.

(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized.

Originally posted by pzazz12 on 05 Oct 2010, 04:54.
Last edited by gmat1393 on 16 Nov 2018, 07:16, edited 2 times in total.
Renamed the topic, edited the question and added the OA.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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06 Aug 2012, 12:49
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Mr. Primm contention is that teaching hospitals will bring little profit. Ms. Nakai counters by stating that teaching hospitals will attract the best physicians. Because only the best physicians can focus on nonroutine cases, the hospitals will be profitable. The assumption is that nonroutine cases must be expensive, otherwise Ms. Nakai's claim fall apart. (B) states exactly this. Nonroutine care is expensive and thus teaching hospitals will be profitable.

(E) does not address Ms. Nakai's argument. That physicians specialize does not mean that they will bring in more money. And be careful not to bring in outside information. That is do no assume specialization, even if it is generally true in the real world, equals higher-paid physicians.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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15 Sep 2018, 19:34
non routine care is expensive and teaching hospitals can handle non routine cases
hence teaching hospitals are profitable
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 07:19
+1 Kudos to the posts containing explanations for all the choices.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 08:48

Quote:
Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival, there would be no teaching hospitals, because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

Ms. Nakai: I disagree. The medical challenges provided by teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians. This, in turn, enables those hospitals to concentrate on nonroutine cases.

Which of the following, if true, would most strengthen Ms. Nakai’s attempt to refute Mr. Primm’s claim?

Claim 1: there would be no teaching hospitals
Evidence 1: high cost of running such hospitals.

Claim 2: teaching hospitals can concentrate more on nonroutine cases.
Evidence 2: medical challenges = best physicians

I need to weaken claim 1 and support claim 2

Quote:
(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries.

Out of scope, what doctors command is not our concern.
Who are these doctors - physicians?

Quote:
(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price.

If non routine medical care commands a high price, will not running cost of teaching
hospitals go down?

Quote:
(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies.

Out of scope, from where do teaching hospitals derive revenue is not our concern at all

Quote:
(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high.

Then fewer patients will be coming to the hospital, does nothing to weaken claim 1

Quote:
(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized.

Yes I feel this strengthens claim 2. More specialized physicians = more revenue for teaching hospitals from non-routine cases.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 09:21
Mr. Primm Claim is teaching hospitals are not profitable because they are expensive.

Where as Ms Nakai claim is Teaching hospitals attract best physicians and as a result those hospitals concentrate on non-routine cases.

so Ms Nakai Assumption is by concentrating on non-routine cases Teaching hospitals are able to generate their profits. that is why she disagree with Mr. Primm

Question Stem ask us to strengthen ms Nakai Claim and weaken Mr. Primm Claim.

Looking at answer choice option B is as per our line of thinking and hence IMO is the correct choice.

rest of the option are either out of scope or irrelevant.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 09:45
Mr. Primm's main point is running cost of teaching cost is too high .
Now, Ms. Nakai is in disagreement with Mr. Primm's point ( as shown by "I disagree")

So we need to find a point that substantiates or is the counter point of Ms. Nikai's counter point to that of Mr. Primm.

Hence .... it would be either 'Teaching Hospitals are not expensive to run'
or 'Although , the running cost of Teaching hospitals are high, the earnings of the teaching hospitals are high as well' .

Option B is in the same line of reasoning as expressed in the second option.
Hence Ans B.
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Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 10:02
1
Quote:
Claim 1: there would be no teaching hospitals
Evidence 1: high cost of running such hospitals.

Claim 2: teaching hospitals can concentrate more on nonroutine cases.
Evidence 2: medical challenges = best physicians

I need to weaken claim 1 and support claim 2

If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival ------ you Should consider this condition too.

2nd it is very important to have a mind set before reading choices. This can be achieved by a fair amount of pre-thoughts. Best way is vizulise that situation. Here are my pre-thoughts.
Quote:
Fact - private hospital need money to survive --- This comes from profits.
opinion - there would be no teaching hospitals ---- [Fact]because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

Before going any further, What is wrong with this picture? --- True on high cost front, but if high profit then high investment usually not a trouble. if I have to break above argument i will think on these lines. Let see what Nakai thinks.
Quote:
I disagree --- Nakai can disagree with opinion part only. So he wants to say at least one teaching hospital can be possible.
Why ? ----- Some +ve connection of nonroutine cases and physicians. P.S. - I dont know what these cases are.

In universities, Some proffesors do research and this research takes a lot of investments. Still why universities make such investments? well this brings raputation. If successful, a lot many papers. in best case a nobel prize. and so a lot of money from many source as charity. My point is in same way, nonroutine cases also doing some good and on lines of money good.

B. Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price. ---- well, all I can see a flow of money and it is lucrative to physicians + hospitals.

E. The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized. ---- Here is a problem, How you know, to achieve this goal they need a teaching hospital ? To reach at this conclusion, you need a lot many assumptions and those are out of question scope.

B is the best choice.Hope it is helpful to you.
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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 10:05
3
1

Quote:
Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival, there would be no teaching hospitals, because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

Ms. Nakai: I disagree. The medical challenges provided by teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians. This, in turn, enables those hospitals to concentrate on nonroutine cases.

Which of the following, if true, would most strengthen Ms. Nakai’s attempt to refute Mr. Primm’s claim?

Claim 1: there would be no teaching hospitals
Evidence 1: high cost of running such hospitals.

Claim 2: teaching hospitals can concentrate more on nonroutine cases.
Evidence 2: medical challenges = best physicians

I need to weaken claim 1 and support claim 2

Quote:
(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries.

Out of scope, what doctors command is not our concern.
Who are these doctors - physicians?

Quote:
(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price.

If non routine medical care commands a high price, will not running cost of teaching
hospitals go down?

Quote:
(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies.

Out of scope, from where do teaching hospitals derive revenue is not our concern at all

Quote:
(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high.

Then fewer patients will be coming to the hospital, does nothing to weaken claim 1

Quote:
(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized.

Yes I feel this strengthens claim 2. More specialized physicians = more revenue for teaching hospitals from non-routine cases.

If you don't mind , I'll try to explain.. actually your reasoning is sound..but the reasoning you used for E , should actually (exactly the same) be used for B.

Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival, there would be no teaching hospitals, because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

- P says if hospitals were for-profit , then they wouldn't be teaching hospitals too. Why? P says costs for such hospitals would be substantially high. And if a hospital cares about profit why would it opt for such costly ( cost to hospital) programs? Reasoning is good right?? But there is a major leap here. P makes hisconclusion on the basis of PROFIT and supports it with "evidence of costs"
But profit= revenue- profit.
What about the revenu?? What if the training somehow (directly or indirectly) actually brings in a lotttt of revenue? .

Ms. Nakai: I disagree. The medical challenges provided by teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians. This, in turn, enables those hospitals to concentrate on nonroutine cases.

- N says Training lures best physicians. This leads to non routine cases. Now P is talking about profits and existence of training for profit hospital and N is talking about training>luring> non routine. So there is gap in B's disagreement. N does not address the issue of costs or profits.. she just says that something happens in training hospital. But how is that related to P's argument?? She doesn't explicitly mention any connection between best physicians or non routine with profits or costs. Then how is her disagreement sound?? That's what we have to do . We have to link her argument with P's argument and then N's argument will make sense and her disagreement prominent.

Quote:
(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized.

Yes I feel this strengthens claim 2. More specialized physicians = more revenue for teaching hospitals from non-routine cases.[/quote]
You assumed that specialised physicians = more revenue from non routine. Are we told non routine = greater revenue??nope. So how is this Choice even helping N's argument?? N's argument is still not addressing the profits and costs issue of P ! This choice says trend is physicians want to become specialised.so?? Why should Primm care?? His argument still stands and N's disagreement does not make any sense !! ( Period !)

Quote:
(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price.

Commands high PRICE ( not costs).. If non routine commands high price ( or they are costly TO patients..) then it MAY attract more revenue. And as per N's argument the focus is actually moving towards non routine. She must have assumed (in order to disagree with P) that non routine focus is somehow related to profits and costs. Only then does her argument make sense.

If non routine medical care commands a high price, will not running cost of teaching
hospitals go down?
How did you reason that high price means running cost of teaching goes down? I mean this is your OWN ASSUMPTION. There is no such relation given to us. It may very well mean that high price may increase revenue and therefore overall profit without affecting teaching costs... You made a huge OWN relation.

Yes I feel this strengthens claim 2. More specialized physicians = more revenue for teaching hospitals from non-routine cases.
More specialist physians = more revenue?? Where did you get that from?? Argument does not give us any relation as such.. here again you have made your OWN relation .

Please be vary of such OWN ASSUMPTIONS AND RELATIONS.
If you read passage closely , then you'll see the 2 major gaps. In P's ( about teaching bringing any money or not)
And N's disagreement with eveidence that does not address P's main claim.

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Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 10:07
PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ---> PROFITS ---> OBSTACLE ---> HIGH OPERATIONAL COSTS ----- SOLUTION ? PRETHINKING: SOMETHING MUST BE OF GREAT VALUE TO CREATE DEMAND ON SERVICES PROVIDED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE IN ORDER TO STRENGTHEN CLAIM.

So in other words we need to make an enterprise a profitable business.

Which of the following, if true, would most strengthen Ms. Nakai’s attempt to refute Mr. Primm’s claim?

(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries. ( out of scope straight away )

(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price. ( correct as per my prethinking )

(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies. ( out of scope - we need PROFITS )

(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high. ( we are not concerned about mortality )

(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized. ( out of scope - totally irrelevant - we need to make an entriprise a profitable business )

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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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16 Nov 2018, 19:47
I don't whether I am right, but I will go with C.

(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries. - as primm says...HIGH COST.

(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price. - again HIGH COST.

(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies. - teaching hospitals get revenue. This is the best refute to primm. Getting revenue balances against high cost even if it exists. Keep.

(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high. - irrelevant.

(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized. - irrelevant. What is the advantage to the hospital as a whole ? It doesn't counter the " high cost" blame.

IMHO C.

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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits  [#permalink]

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18 Nov 2018, 03:32
pzazz12 wrote:

Project CR Butler:Day 11:Critical Reasoning (CR2)

Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits for their survival, there would be no teaching hospitals, because of the intrinsically high cost of running such hospitals.

Ms. Nakai: I disagree. The medical challenges provided by teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians. This, in turn, enables those hospitals to concentrate on nonroutine cases.

Which of the following, if true, would most strengthen Ms. Nakai’s attempt to refute Mr. Primm’s claim?

(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries.

(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price.

(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies.

(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high.

(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized.

Mr. Primm:
1) no teaching as it involves high cost and such hospitals depend on their profits.
2) if profit is high enough > teaching hospitals

Ms. Nakai:
1) teaching hospitals attract the very best physicians > concentrate on nonroutine cases>more profit

Now coming to the options :

(A) Doctors at teaching hospitals command high salaries. If this true then the profit will shrink at much faster rate and teaching hospital will never come into operation. Hence rejected.

(B) Sophisticated, nonroutine medical care commands a high price. It seems this option can increase the chance of having more profit. Keep it.

(C) Existing teaching hospitals derive some revenue from public subsidies. Irrelevant.

(D) The patient mortality rate at teaching hospitals is high. Irrelevant

(E) The modern trend among physicians is to become highly specialized. Okay? So what? Does it ensure that profits will rise? No. More or less irrelevant.

Correct option B.

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Re: Mr. Primm: If hospitals were private enterprises, dependent on profits   [#permalink] 18 Nov 2018, 03:32
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