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Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through

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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 23 Oct 2018, 20:33
amatya wrote:
Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

(A) as with
(B) as did those of
(C) as they have in
(D) like in
(E) like those of


In option C, "they" refers to Thai Village crafts and thus it is illogical since Thai village crafts have not developed in other cultures.
1. In "Thai village crafts", Thai and Village are modifiers(adjectives) that modify crafts, but when we use "they" as in option C, "they" refers to the entire phrase "Thai village crafts" and CANNOT refer only to Crafts

2.Whereas in option E, "those" acts as a pronoun and refers ONLY to crafts?
Thai village crafts = village crafts of Thai
I can understand that those can refer ONLY to crafts if we used village crafts of THAI, but I wasn't very sure in the current format-"Thai village crafts"

-Like the poetry of Bruce Willis, that of Chuck Norris is flowery and pretty. -- here that refers to poetry
-Like Bruce Willis' poetry, that of Chuck Norris is flowery and pretty. -- here that refers to poetry

I understand that the term "that" in above examples of Bruce Willis refers to poetry, but wasn't very sure about Thai village crafts.

AjiteshArun , GMATNinja , MagooshExpert , GMATGuruNY , VeritasKarishma , DmitryFarber , ChiranjeevSingh , RonPurewal , VeritasPrepBrian , other experts -please enlighten
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 23 Oct 2018, 20:57
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Yeah really good question. I'd read it this way - it's not as much (at least to me) about the difference between "they" and "those" as pronouns, but more that (E) (and also (B)) add the word "of." And taken together, "those of" we know is a possessive construction. *That* is what would trigger me to go back and look for the possessive "Thai village crafts" and make sure that I'm matching possessive to possessive (as opposed to carrying the entire construction over to "they.")

One thing that's worked really well for me and for students I've worked with is letting the answer choices alert you to potential errors and lack-of-clarity issues. In a vacuum I don't know that I'd initially see a problem with "they"...but as soon as I see "those of" in a couple answer choices that's a huge signal that possessive comparison/modification is in play here, so *then* I'm looking super carefully for that. (E) makes it really clear that Thai village crafts and village crafts of other countries are separate. In (C) I can see where even if it's not wrong it could be seen as confusing. Consider this as another version:

Thai food, like it is in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.

Are we saying "Thai food" in other Asian countries? Or just "food" in other Asian countries (so Chinese food, Laotian food, whatever)?

But if you say:

Thai food, like the food in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.

It's really clear that we're including all those different native cuisines.

Anyway...to me I don't know that I'd immediately read (C) and think "clarity/meaning error!" But in comparison with (E) I can see where (E) is much clearer than (C) could be, so if you ask me to make the decision then that's what'll be on my mind.

(Also I have to check out some of this Bruce Willis / Chuck Norris poetry now!)
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Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 23 Oct 2018, 22:16
VeritasPrepBrian wrote:
Yeah really good question. I'd read it this way - it's not as much (at least to me) about the difference between "they" and "those" as pronouns, but more that (E) (and also (B)) add the word "of." And taken together, "those of" we know is a possessive construction. *That* is what would trigger me to go back and look for the possessive "Thai village crafts" and make sure that I'm matching possessive to possessive (as opposed to carrying the entire construction over to "they.")

One thing that's worked really well for me and for students I've worked with is letting the answer choices alert you to potential errors and lack-of-clarity issues. In a vacuum I don't know that I'd initially see a problem with "they"...but as soon as I see "those of" in a couple answer choices that's a huge signal that possessive comparison/modification is in play here, so *then* I'm looking super carefully for that. (E) makes it really clear that Thai village crafts and village crafts of other countries are separate. In (C) I can see where even if it's not wrong it could be seen as confusing. Consider this as another version:

Thai food, like it is in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.

Are we saying "Thai food" in other Asian countries? Or just "food" in other Asian countries (so Chinese food, Laotian food, whatever)?

But if you say:

Thai food, like the food in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.

It's really clear that we're including all those different native cuisines.

Anyway...to me I don't know that I'd immediately read (C) and think "clarity/meaning error!" But in comparison with (E) I can see where (E) is much clearer than (C) could be, so if you ask me to make the decision then that's what'll be on my mind.

(Also I have to check out some of this Bruce Willis / Chuck Norris poetry now!)


VeritasPrepBrian - Thanks for your prompt response.

*That* is what would trigger me to go back and look for the possessive "Thai village crafts" and make sure that I'm matching possessive to possessive (as opposed to carrying the entire construction over to "they.") ---> That of and Those of are both possessive construction.

1. Also, you have mentioned that "Thai village crafts" is possessive -->, In my opinion, Thai village's craft is possessive and Thai village craft is just a noun(craft) with two modifiers(adjectives) - Thai and village. Did you simplify(by calling "Thai village crafts" possessive) it to show that both the structures work in the same way in case of that of and those of constructions ?

So did you mean that in case of That of and Those of both the structures -" Thai village crafts" and " Thai village's crafts" are same?


2. Thai Village's crafts --> If we use the pronoun "they", then "they" will refer to the entire phrase "Thai Village's crafts"
, whereas using their(possessive) we can refer to Thai village's
and using those we can refer to crafts?

3. Thai village crafts --> If we use the pronoun "they", then "they" will refer to the entire phrase "Thai Village crafts"
, whereas using those we can refer to "crafts"? (But "their" WON'T work because there is no possessive here? )

4. Thai food, like it is in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.-- This sounds illogical as the pronoun "it" refers to Thai food

Thai food, like that of in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available. -- can the Pronoun "that of" refer to the noun food here?

Thai food, like the food in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available. -- No pronoun used here, so it's okay

The pronoun "IT" refers to same pronoun whereas "That of" or 'Those of" refers to a copy ?
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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Regarding whether "Thai" is an adjective or a possessive there, nationality descriptions could be either:

-Chinese exports rose 10% last month --> that's "the exports of China" as a possessive

-Chinese food is delicious --> Chinese is an adjective there describing a type of food

Then for the rest...I'll just circle back to the notion that Sentence Correction is more about good strategy and decision-making (and reading comprehension) than about getting deep in to the weeds of grammar. Which is to say 1) I'd be punching way above my weight class if I tried to get into a pages-long discussion about all the different permutations this problem could have taken...and while in my first year or so of teaching the GMAT that kind made me feel a little like a fraud ("how can I teach SC without knowing all these little angles on grammar?") I'm 100% convinced now that it's a feature and not a bug, because 2) whenever you find yourself past page 1 of a Google search for a grammatical concept, or on your 5th or 6th GMAT Club reply trying to figure it out, you're almost certainly missing a much more repeatable strategic component that's really at the heart of what they're testing.

Here like I said the presence of "those of" in two answer choices told me that it looks like they're testing a possessive comparison/modification - something I *know* the GMAT tests frequently so when I see that I make it a primary decision point - and once I identified that "Thai" looks like it's being used as a possessive, that's the whole game.
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 31 Oct 2018, 06:23
VeritasPrepBrian wrote:
Thai food, like it is in other Asian countries, is generally spicy but milder options are available.


Hi VeritasPrepBrian ,
it's my first time to see a sentence ,like this, in GMAT.

Should like be followed noun or noun phrase?
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 01 Nov 2018, 01:07
amatya wrote:
Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

(A) as with
(B) as did those of
(C) as they have in
(D) like in
(E) like those of


So here s my approach to this comparison problem..

Okay..So i see "as" vs "like"

I immediately realise its a comparison question..

Now what is being compared..(determine the context of comparsion)
Thai crafts of one village to the thai crafts of other villages..

Now
AS--cannot be used for comparing nouns..we use like

So remove A,B,C

Now like in is incorrect...ask IN what what?
we are just comparing X to Y..

Thai to crafts to those of other crafts so direct answer E



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New post 01 Nov 2018, 01:13
lguerreromeseguer wrote:
I have one more question for you experts!

I normally read all the explanations the official guide gives to every answer choice. For C it reads: "The use of the pronoun they is inaccurate; the reader is likely to take its antecedent to be Thai village crafts, not crafts. Furthermore, even if the pronoun here were not problematic, if the construction as they have in other cultures is used, it should occur after the main verb (have developed) is introduced."

What rule is there stating that the main verb should have appeared before the construction as they have in other cultures? I would have surely selected that option as correct.

Thanks!!



he pronoun they refers directly to the full original noun; in this case, they refers to Thai village crafts. It’s illogical, though, to compare Thai village crafts to Thai village crafts; rather, the sentence should compare Thai village crafts to some other crafts.

The pronoun those does not have the same restriction as the pronoun they. Those can refer to the original noun in a generic way: this type of thing (crafts) but not the exact same thing (Thai village crafts). For example, this sentence is correct: Isla’s shoes are like those of her mother. Those refers to a different pair of shoes (her mother’s shoes), not Isla’s specific shoes.


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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 04 Nov 2018, 15:13
egmat wrote:

Choice D is incorrect because the comparison word like has been followed by a preposition in. This usage is incorrect because when presenting comparison, like must be followed by the noun entity that forms one part of the comparison. It is not followed by any other entity.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi Shradda egmat, sorry for bumping an old discussion!

Thank you for your explanation. Can we safely say that "like" (when presenting a comparison) cannot be followed by the prepositional phrase?

Thanks!
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 05 Nov 2018, 07:00
GMATNinja egmat VeritasKarishma daagh gmatexam439 chetan2u

Though the best answer is E , isnt grammatically option E unsound?
"thai village crafts, like those of other cultures..."
now those is a pronoun referring back to a noun. Now i know "those" refers back to "crafts" but "crafts" has adjective "thai village" so isnt this a compound noun??? and if we be literal and replace "those" with " thai village crafts" it makes no sense...
how can we drop " thai village" from crafts ???
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 05 Nov 2018, 07:26
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Aditya

If you say that the noun 'crafts will become a compound when you attach an adjective to the term, then you are getting confused that the "Thai village," is another noun. However, please note that its part of speech is here an adjective. Like when we say "oil price," don't mistake that there are two nouns such as oil and price. Oil is an adjective here. 'The Thai village crafts' is not compound but at best, it is a plural noun.
Please revisit the definition of a compound noun and verify. Secondly, if the Thai village crafts is a compound noun, where is the co-coordinating conjunction between them? You cannot have a compound noun without the use of coordinating conjunction.
Secondly, having already said that 'those' refers to the crafts, you should not again unnecessarily change it to 'Thai village crafts."
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New post 05 Nov 2018, 07:36
daagh thank you for the response. I will definitely look up the definition of compound noun.

But the primary doubt I have is how can we drop the adjective from the noun ?? As you said this " Thai village crafts" is in its entirety a plural noun...so accordingly shouldn't "those" refer back to "Thai village crafts "

This doubt persists because in an official SC question , an answer choice was wrong because the pronoun replaced the entire (adj+noun) and not just the noun.

Please explain...sorry for the trouble..

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Relative pronouns and pronouns should refer to back to just a precise noun, not a phrase nor a theme.

Quote:
This doubt persists because in an official SC question , an answer choice was wrong because the pronoun replaced the entire (adj+noun) and not just the noun.


Cn you please provide the question and the choice for the above ?
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New post 26 Nov 2018, 08:29
amatya wrote:
Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

(A) as with
(B) as did those of
(C) as they have in
(D) like in
(E) like those of


daagh GMATNinja chetan2u EMPOWERgmatVerbal
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Please explain my doubts.I know m missing something very feeble but still i want to make things clear.

1)
A)
Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

we can write it as:
As it is the case with other cultures, thai village crafts have developed..........

so where is comparison becoming illogical?
means how cultures are being compared to craft ,i am not able to get.
does not it is the case stand for action of development ?

B)ok here did is wrong
but if had been
Thai village crafts, as have those of other cultures[so as crafts of others cultures have developed,thai village crafts have deloped], have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

will it be correct?

i read in explanation for above sentence to be correct,
have developed of main clause should come first.
meaning
Thai village crafts have developed, as have those of other cultures[so as crafts of others cultures have developed,thai village crafts have developed], through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

can some one explain me this logic?

C)Thai village crafts, as they have in, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

ok here they refers to thai village craft
so how it is wrong. thai village craft may be something like sufi music which may developed through same way in all cultures.
also
suppose they refers only to crafts
will it make sense then?

Thai village crafts, as crafts have developed in other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

or here also we need to main verb-have developed first .
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Re: Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through  [#permalink]

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New post 15 Dec 2018, 10:53
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Quote:
Please explain my doubts.I know m missing something very feeble but still i want to make things clear.

1)
A)
Thai village crafts, as with other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

we can write it as:
As it is the case with other cultures, thai village crafts have developed..........

so where is comparison becoming illogical?
means how cultures are being compared to craft ,i am not able to get.
does not it is the case stand for action of development ?

This construction is still a problem.

First, the phrase "As it is the case" is clunky and confusing. What does "it" refer to?

Also, the OA makes it clear that we're comparing crafts in Thai villages to crafts in other villages. This example appears to compare "cultures" to "crafts."

Last, when you see that an SC question is testing your understanding of comparisons, don't feel obligated to prove that every incorrect answer has an illogical comparison. If two sentences offer similar comparisons and one of them is clearer and more concise than the other, that option is objectively better. No need to overcomplicate things.

Quote:
B)ok here did is wrong
but if had been
Thai village crafts, as have those of other cultures[so as crafts of others cultures have developed,thai village crafts have deloped], have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

will it be correct?

i read in explanation for above sentence to be correct,
have developed of main clause should come first.
meaning
Thai village crafts have developed, as have those of other cultures[so as crafts of others cultures have developed,thai village crafts have developed], through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

can some one explain me this logic?

Still problematic.

Because the first clause, "Thai village crafts have developed" can theoretically stand on its own, it initially sounds as though the sentence is communicating the following: "Thai village crafts have developed, and the crafts of other cultures have also developed." It's not until we get to the modifier beginning with "through" that we see that author wishes to convey how the respective crafts have developed, not that they have. Put another way, while the comparison isn't necessarily wrong, the sentence is confusing and requires the reader to double-back to make sense of it. Thus, there's no way this could be the best option.

Quote:
C)Thai village crafts, as they have in, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

ok here they refers to thai village craft
so how it is wrong. thai village craft may be something like sufi music which may developed through same way in all cultures.
also
suppose they refers only to crafts
will it make sense then?

Thai village crafts, as crafts have developed in other cultures, have developed through the principle that form follows function and incorporate readily available materials fashioned using traditional skills

or here also we need to main verb-have developed first .

As Brian notes above, the use of "they" creates confusion in a way that "those of" does not.

Here's another example: "Amy's dogs are sharing a giant chocolate bar, while they frolic in Sandy's basement." In this example, "they" is referring to Amy's dogs, and it's her dogs that are running around in Sandy's basement. Contrast that example with: "Amy's dogs are sharing a giant chocolate bar, while those in Sandy's basement frolic." The phrase "those + preposition" indicates that we're referring to different dogs. Amy's dogs are eating chocolate, and the dogs in Sandy's basement are running around.

In other news, please do not feed your dogs chocolate. You could, however, feed chocolate to certain food-obsessed GMAT verbal experts...

I hope that helps!
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