LBS vs Kellogg (full time MBA)

Question

Hi guys,

I'm having a hard time deciding between LBS and Kellogg at the moment.

I'm from an engineering background and I'm intending to move into Management Consulting. My current plan is to do the MBA and work a couple of years in the host country to pay off the student loan.

It looks like the US economy is going up, and UK is going down, but then there's Trump and Brexit so nothing is very certain. I'm from Australia, and due to the low British Pound and high USD, LBS is about $40k cheaper than Kellogg. I've already paid the deposit for LBS (10k Pounds) as I was offered the LBS MBA position from last year's waitlist, so I'm not too keen to lose that deposit either.

What's your thought on this?

Thanks,

Mo2men · Answer

IMHO, I lean to LBS as it will help you in UK because of your nationality. Also, LBS and nationality may help in Europe. I think the cost and duration of the program will be better. You can do exchange term in any schools like Kellogg too, if you are interested in some courses not offered in LBS.

thanghuu · Answer

Thanks Mo2men, yeah LBS is fairly well known in Australia. But the visa situation in the UK is actually not that great since Australian are considered to be non-EU and won't get any preferential treatment; I also heard at the moment companies aren't too keen to sponsor students because of the Brexit. I looked at the LBS employment stats and roughly only 50% of the students stayed in the UK post MBA.

Kellogg seems to be doing well at the moment, moving up the MBA ranking fairly solidly. The US economy is booming as well, so I'm leaning more toward Kellogg.

Kellogg seems to be doing well at the moment, moving up the MBA ranking fairly solidly. The US economy is booming as well, so I'm leaning more toward Kellogg.

Wilch · Answer

Most of my international friends at Kellogg got what they wanted in the US. I don't think you'll have too much issue getting interview opportunities there. If you're confident in your interview skills, Kellogg is a fine choice.

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thanghuu · Answer

Thanks Wilch, that's encouraging to hear.

Morgan15 · Answer

The issue with the US is the H1B lottery. Even if you get a job that will sponsor you for a visa, there's no guarantee you can stay in the US. It's a random computer lottery. I'd choose LBS if I were concerned about paying off the debt in the country where I get an MBA

Wilch · Answer

The H1 lottery isn't a problem if you work for firms who can send you overseas and bring you back on a L1 later on.

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thanghuu · Answer

Thanks Morgan15 & Wilch.

There's actually a special US visa class for Australian called E3 visa, so I don't have to go through the H1B process. A friend of mine on E3 (sponsored by Amazon) told me that it took him only 2 weeks to obtain, and there's no queue since the visa cap is way higher than the number of applicants.

From what I've gathered, it is more difficult to get UK work visa in the UK than the US E3 visa.

Wilch · Answer

One caveat. I'm Canadian and we have a similar visa. Unfortunately, recruiters in the US are not very good at making distinctions between Canadians/Australians and the rest of the non-citizens. Facebook, for example, does not hire internationals for their MBA roles currently & made it plenty clear to me that you're either American or you're ineligible. I ran into a small handful of recruiters that wanted to interview me but rescinded the interviews because I'm not American. I explained to them about the Canadian TN visa and received no response.

The two perks of having access to these other visas are that (1) if a company hires you and you draw the short straw in the H1B lottery, you have a backup plan and (2) if you know the hiring manager and s/he likes you, they can talk to HR for you and find workarounds.

With that said, I felt like there are plenty enough companies/roles out there that doesn't require citizenship that this shouldn't be an issue. Also, if you're gunning for consulting, it wouldn't matter where you're from. If you're qualified, you'll get hired.

Morgan15 · Answer

In that case, I'd pick USA

I've worked in both countries and generally speaking salaries are higher in the US, you do more interesting/cutting edge work, and there's more potential for future growth in the economy

Morgan15 · Answer

As someone who's been through this after undergrad, I can guarantee you it's not as seamless as people think it is. The L1 visa is also being scrutinized by the current administration and some of my friends at MBB are having trouble getting back to the US on it.

thanghuu · Answer

Thanks Wilch& Morgan, your insights are really helpful.

Morgan15 : you mentioned the UK economy is not doing that well. How bad is it actually at the moment? I've heard that jobs in the financial services sector is unstable and a fair chunk of them is moving to mainland Europe?

Wilch : you're finishing the MBA this year, what's your job search experience so far like?

Wilch · Answer

It's difficult but not impossible. I can share my experience about tech recruiting.

I didn't bother looking at consulting or banking from the get go and started focusing on developing a game plan for tech recruiting. I reached out to 2nd years, alumni I have strong commonalities with, and my own network between September and October. I consider these to be my inner circle or warmer network contacts. I started reaching out beyond that to other alumni and 3rd degree connections between November and December. By the January, when people who flamed out of consulting and banking have joined the fray and are still figuring out the nuances of tech recruiting, I've already racked up 8-10 referrals at several mid to large cap tech firms (funny story, none of the firms I was referred at interviewed me, but I got a number of interviews from several really awesome firms that really surprised me).

As an international student, I lost out on interview opportunities with 3-4 firms because of my non residence status - prior to interviewing me, they asked me about my citizenship and rejected my application as soon as they found out I'm not a resident.

All in all, I came away with interviews with about 10 different firms (ranging from pre-IPO firms to mega cap firms), was given 3 offers, with 2 still in progress but halted because I signed by then. I only interviewed for strategy, business development, and marketing roles - and keep in mind I have none of these experiences coming entirely from a finance background outside of the US.

Most people who came away with something they didn't like or couldn't find a job were international students who went all in on banking or consulting, didn't secure an offer in January, spent too much time regrouping for plan B, and pivoted into the game a bit too late.

Then there's people with unrealistic expectations about jumping into PE and VC without the required experience.

You're going to try for consulting, so I recommend having a backup plan. Talk to current students and see how they planned for it. Also ask them about firms that has Kellogg as a top target school, always good to pay attention to those firms because getting interviews from them might require little to no effort.

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Morgan15 · Answer

I think the short answer is "No one knows yet" which is awful because the uncertainty is what makes the whole thing unstable. But the sentiment is indeed that many financial jobs are moving to mainland Europe.

I was speaking more broadly about economic forecasts and not any one sector in particular.

Morgan15 · Answer

Wilch, do you mind sharing what firms did not consider you because of your status? I saw you mention FB. Anyone else? I've heard similar things about MS and Google and wanted to confirm.

Wilch · Answer

The landscape has shifted since Donald Trump became the president. The list grows of firms that does not sponsor grew in the 2017-18 recruiting cycle. Instead of sharing only the firms that rejected me on that basis, I'll share some of the firms that told me they no longer sponsor starting this cycle as well. These firms include Qualcomm, VMware, Workday, and Flextronics.

Microsoft does sponsor, but not for all positions like supply chain & operations; I don't think they made it very clear on their website but their recruiter did state which positions they sponsor for in Yale's career portal. Facebook flat out does not sponsor, they're hot enough that they get plenty of high quality applicants locally anyway. I'm less clear about Google, but they took way more Americans than non-Americans during my cycle. Amazon used to not mention anything about work authorization in the 2016-17 cycle, but they've added an addendum in their job requirement this year stating they prefer candidates with work authorization.

In general, if you're an international student, you need to come prepared to fight for your interviews. I've spoken to hiring managers at my firm and once you're past the HR screen, your residency status is rarely accounted for in the hiring process (though this is more opaque in massive organizations like Google and Amazon).

thanghuu · Answer

Congrats Wilch for getting a nice offer, looks like your hard work has paid off :D It's funny about the VMWare, I actually caught up with a student from Kellogg last week, and he tried to apply for an intern position there, only to find that the VMWare job portal didn't have any option for international student

I guess the right approach for job search is to be realistic about the options, fight hard for interviews, and have a solid plan B, as Wilch suggested. Looking at the employment report of Kellogg, 12% of grads got international jobs (compared to about 30% international students), so probably the odd is not too terrible.

MV23 · Answer

thanghuu 
So, where did you end up going to?
Also, isn't it fairly straightforward to get a job in the UK? Like you don't have to go through a lottery to get a work visa.

thanghuu · Answer

Hi  MV23  , I actually haven't decided yet. I've just paid deposit for both LBS and Kellogg. I need some more time to think, and a couple of grand $$ is not too significant in the grand scheme of thing.

From what I understand, getting working VISA in the UK is a fair bit easier than H1B in the US, since there's no lottery. Having said that, you still need to get an employer to sponsor you, and the student visa expires like 4 months after graduation (after which you'll need to leave the UK), so it's not a walk in the park.

shoro · Answer

Hi thanghuu - Do you have any specifics with respect to your career goal of consulting? E.g. target firms

LBS vs Kellogg (full time MBA)

LBS or Kellogg MBA

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