Marshall ($$) vs Kenan Flagler ($$) ?

Question

Hello Everyone,

Marshall and Kenan Flagler have provided me the same $ amount, and I'm trying to decide which one to go for. I definitely appreciate this forum's responses; they helped me make a similar decision last week. Here's the situation:

Profile:  Indian, Male, Engineer with 4 years of experience in Analytics, 740 GMAT
 Goal:  Consulting (MBB or Big 4 MC) or Technology (Internal consulting or management roles in FAANG etc.)

Marshall:  
New Dean, Rise in rankings, may even hit T15 at this pace (Solid T20 I suppose)
SoCal Brand
Better Consulting stats (~25% students at ~140K), better for Tech because of west coast
Great Employment Stats, But weak (er) on-campus recruiting is a concern
~32% International students and bigger Intl community

Kenan Flagler: 
Solid T20 
National brand
Consulting Stats (~17% in Consulting at ~140K), Tech Stats on par with Marshall (Surprising)
Stats aside, It does have MBB and better On-Campus recruiting
~17% International students

Fit is even and I am location-agnostic at this point. COA for Marshall is an extra ~$20K mainly because of living expenses. Although being in LA for the exposure and industry proximity is worth it (Right?). One of the major concerns to me is that Marshall bumped up to T20 from a T30 only recently, but does that translate to T20 level opportunities in the near future? At the end of the day, the main goal for me is to maximize my employment chances as an international student in both these industries.

I definitely understand my research on some areas may be wrong. So I would greatly appreciate any additional info or points that would provide clarity! And Happy to provide any more detail.

Thanks,
Gautham

bb · Answer

Congratulations on your Admits and Scholarships! California schools (including Haas) have a hard time with on campus recruiting. Crap, I even think Stanford has a bit of a hard time with on-campus recruiting though you don't really need it, you just call and they give you a job

, anyway... neither KF or Marshall are stellar with on campus recruiting but I would guess KF is better. woody93 - what would you recommend? Obviously consulting is very competitive and it is a tough place for an engineer to break into as you are evaluated on so much more than your knowledge and expertise - your presentation skills, your ability to recover, how you present yourself, fit, etc and it helps to be an outgoing person in that case. You also have to have lots of exhaustive interviews, chats, meetings, and constantly remind about yourself in a non-annoying way. It is something. LA has nicer weather but USC is in a tough neighborhood. The area around the school is safe but that's about it. Once you venture out, you are miles from the beach or a nice neighborhood. You will need to have a car, so go ahead and add $$ to your budget. Uber has made things easier and better but it will still cost you, whether you have a car or use uber, that's extra cost. I would encourage you to connect with students (they are probably pretty available and bored at the moment and likely very very depressed about recruiting). Also consider any additional networks/people you know to help you with this big transition and help with recruiting for both internship and job. Business School can be tough (it is) and it is very trying, so having some safety net or support is very helpful. P.S. I don't know why Marshall popped in the rankings either, frankly. They were high 20's for a long time and suddenly they are Top 15. It is unusual and I think your feeling of a newly gained fame is that it can be lost as quickly as acquired.... but I am seeing solid job/placement stats, esp for consulting and I personally prefer LA to South when it comes to fitting in (nobody cares how weird you are in LA because everyone else is) whereas I feel the South is still not as open to newcomers fitting in (perhaps that was just me) so despite the higher cost, I would consider Marshall for their employment numbers and ease of fitting in.

Gauthamkailash · Answer

Thanks bb! for your response. I agree that LA can become quite expensive quite quickly. And that kinda boils down to the main question: Assuming all things equal including efforts from my end during recruiting, Would spending the extra COA at Marshall translate to better opportunities in my preferred industries?

JohnJohnJ · Answer

I spent two months in LA, this past summer. I think BBs view of USCs neighborhood is not entirely true. LA has a large problem with homelessness. 
But I love LA, given that USC is closer to downtown, it’s not like West Hollywood or Beverly Hills or like the neighborhood around UCLA, but you just have to be vigilant (anywhere in the world). Having said that, I have spent a lot of time traveling to Raleigh and Durham but I haven’t been to chapel hill... also, I’ve been told that chapel hill has its bad corners. 
Now to chose between USC and UNC, I would with USC-I always think that a MBA in a bigger city is better than a college town, you’ll get to network with people outside of the school too. LA has a solid entertainment industry, growing tech presence-google and amazon in silicon beach, etc. all big 4 consulting firms hire at USC (they do that at chapel hill too), MBB is hit or miss (both are not target schools). 
LA has great food - go to Leo’s taco truck when you get there (it’s popular, they say LA has better), great weather. 
On the down side, I prefer east coast over west coast for the quality of people, but it’s just a personal preference.

Posted from my mobile device

souvik101990 · Answer

This is a hard choice, and I would probably go with USC for the location. The LA offices for tech will give you great exposure and networking helps more than anything when it comes to tech recruiting. For recruiting, I am not entirely sure, but does MBB come to campus for either school? Ask the students and find out. I am sure EY is a fair shot for those two schools anyway, so fair game? No other consulting firm will sponsor, so if you are dead set on consulting, you will have to fend for yourself through networking. It is hard, but definitely possible.

bb · Answer

I know it may sound unreasonable, but in the great scheme of things, the difference in the cost of living is going to be the least of your worries

Think about where you will be more successful. Posted from my mobile device

Gauthamkailash · Answer

I appreciate the response. I am in the process of asking for in-depth employment data. But from my research, KF has MBB presence on campus but they hire in single-digit numbers. Marshall has just Mckinsey on its report, but that may be just former consultants returning. Is EY the only company that hires internationals? It's shocking to hear that other T2/T3 don't

Either way, I'm equally gunning for Tech (Marshall + LA does help here), so I guess I should be okay as long as I don't put all my eggs in one basket.

JohnJohnJ · Answer

Also, don’t take it for granted that EY will give you a red carpet entrance. I have been at many client presentations where the likes of Mckinsey, Deloitte and EY have competed - EY does some good work too and they don’t extend the offer to everyone. 
With the coronavirus scare and remote working enablement, it’ll be interesting to see how consulting firms pivot their business where consultants were primarily at the clients sites. This will have an impact on visa rules too. I can already see that people are performing better and contributing more in the remote working model. 
I am thinking that companies will proactively request for fewer visas and enable remote working near shore employees

Posted from my mobile device

woody93 · Answer

Current 1Y MBA at UNC here. Congrats on your terrific admissions! To be honest, I don't know much about USC and don't have any friends who have gone there so I can't speak to the opportunities there. I can however give you an honest assessment of my time at Carolina so far. Looking at your consulting goals, UNC will give you the face time and on-campus opportunties to land an interview. MBB + BIG 4 all come for on-campus recruitment. Keep in mind, consulting is the most competitive field, so success will really come down to your stats, interview skills and most importantly casing skills. UNC will get you the face time and then it is up to you (with our help of course!) to land the interview. I do not know consulting recruitment on Marshall. Net you listed Tech as a secondary option which is wise since consulting starts as soon as you get on campus and tech is a bit later so you can stagger your efforts which is CRUCIAL. Tech is actually the strongest at UNC (I know, that surprised me too!). I can tell you that there are a lot of my classmates this year going to Amazon, Google, Cisco, Dell, IBM, and Microsoft. Being a southern school this may surprised you but tech has also had the most students by %. They all come on campus and I attended all of their presentations this year as well. Lastly, I want to talk about location. I grew up in NYC and am a big city person myself so I understand if that is what you are looking for. I would actually argue that there are a ton of advantages being in a college town like Chapel Hill. Not only is Chapel Hill one of the best college towns, progressive, and affordable but the environment lets you get super close to your classmates so you can develop great relationships. You go to bars, sporting events, karaoke, dinners etc all the time and this is important. You will not be bored in chapel hill especially given we do a lot of co-sponsored events with nearby Duke as well as have the research triangle park in our backyard. I hope this information helped you. Again, UNC and USC are peer schools and don't think you can go wrong. Will really come down to LA vs College Town, and on-campus recruitment which I shared with you here relating to your goals. Goodluck and hope to see you in Chapel Hill next year. Go Heels!

souvik101990 · Answer

I would change my opinion based on what  woody93  has said. If MBB comes to UNC for on-campus recruiting and does not for Marshall, you should go to UNC if MBB is what you want to do.

But keep in mind that getting into MBB from a school where they don't hire in large volumes can be especially challenging too.

Also like  JohnJohnJ  mentioned, even EY (which admittedly has lower standards than MBB all said and done) will not hire just about anybody. You will have to go through the same rigor and processes to get your foot in the door.

JohnJohnJ · Answer

Thank you for the appreciation, but lower standards makes me think of EY as a firm which is not worth an MBA students - which is untrue. 
Big4s (including EY) do some good work and they don’t necessarily have lower standards, their needs are different- just like other consulting firms that have focused on implementation in addition to strategy (Big 4, BCG Platinion/Gamma, McKinsey Digital, ATK, IBM, LEK, OW, etc) / their needs are different. 
Some of these firms may be hiring more than others because they have more projects than expected, and they’re going after higher margin projects.
MBBs and big 4s are competing with each other these days, they’re both taking many more implementation and strategy project. 
To give you an example (in my new role after quitting consulting) I am right now doing a project for a large auto company in Detroit area, building their marketing plan, here the PMO is being manager by an MBB. (Traditionally PMO was Deloitte’s speciality) 
I know the strategy vs implementation split at MBBs now is 20-80.
The split at implementation consulting firms slightly different at 15-85

Additional reference, a few weeks back i was in Brooklyn and I met a girl who went to MIT Sloan and she was at an MBBs implementation firm. She mentioned that while the group is different, they do many projects with the strategy teams as well.

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souvik101990 · Answer

EY having lower standards has nothing to do with it not being worthy of MBA students. It just means it’s easier to get into EY across all of its practices than it is into MBB. Similar to a top 10 vs a top 20 schools. Both will open more doors than you had before, but getting into one is considered more ‘selective and prestigious’. Exit ops out of MBB ATK OW also tend to be significantly superior than EY.

Other than that, with the large volume that EY, PwC and you some extent Deloitte works at, you’ll have more people who come from all kinds of backgrounds. Does EY hire from HBS Wharton etc. ? Of course they do. Was EY all of their first priority? Unlikely.

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JohnJohnJ · Answer

I disagree, look at LinkedIn my friend, you’ll see that jobs only ask for “top consulting firm experience” or they’re specific with “MBB experience”. So exit opportunities are the same for all “top consulting firms” and for all “MBBs” (two separate categories)

With the brand MBBs have created, implementation consulting firms aren’t the first choice of many MBA students-which is justifies.

Posted from my mobile device

With the brand MBBs have created, implementation consulting firms aren’t the first choice of many MBA students-which is justifies.

Posted from my mobile device

souvik101990 · Answer

Fair point re:implementation consulting. I would push back on what the jobs ask though. While jobs will never really say that "MBB or GTFO" - being at MBB will open more doors than the big 4 on an average. But that's not the point I am trying to make here. If you have worked for a while, it gets much easier to be disillusioned with things like school ranking/brand names etc. Your work should speak for yourself. But when you look at twenty somethings making career choices, they often make those based on prestige/brand/how great they would look on LinkedIn etc. For example EY probably does the best M&A work in the country, but I am yet to find someone in my network graduating from business school picking EY M&A over MBB. Maybe a few. But most would pick MBB. Would that be the most rational choice? Not really. In terms of exit ops ON AN AVERAGE, MBB, OY, ATK would be on the same level I guess. Bringing ENGRTOMBA2018 who is currently in a top tier consulting firm to chime in. Also jumsumtak but he might be too busy building a life in Singapore

Gauthamkailash · Answer

So many great points! If I was a domestic student, I would personally lean towards UNC + Chapel Hill; It sounds like I would be spending less and not losing anything in terms of job opportunities. But as an international student, I have some reservations about employment. The 2019 report shows that the 3-month employment rate for Intl. students is 80%. Given that there are only 42 international students, that means only 33 have been employed at 3 months. Also considering that only 81% report post-MBA salary data, this number realistically will be only lower. I don't have Marshall's 2019 numbers (in the process of asking them), but their employment % has been better in the past even with more international students (70 students). And this is in fact my main concern as an international, and hence the train of thought that maybe a big city location would help ...

souvik101990 · Answer

Gauthamkailash  your point around the proportion of international students who are employed at graduation is a valid concern, but schools are often  strategic  in what those numbers really mean. If you can catch a hold of a current student you can get specific and real data on how many international student went to consulting/tech and also specific companies. I'd strongly recommend doing that research.

JohnJohnJ · Answer

Untrue

Big 4, OY, ATK, LEK, Accenture - fall in the “top consulting firm” category

Posted from my mobile device

Gauthamkailash · Answer

Pardon me, But what do you mean by "Schools are often strategic"?. And Sure! I'll add those to the list of data points I plan to get.

souvik101990 · Answer

In my experience, consulting tiers are somewhat like this:

Tier 1 - MBB
Tier 2 - OY, ATK, LEK, Deloitte S&O, and maybe Alix Partners and Strategy&
Tier 3 - Accenture, EY, PwC, KPMG

While I agree they are top consulting firms and great to work for, people coming out of business school would prefer tier 1 > tier 2 > tier 3. I also think the far out someone is from business school the less important these "tiers" get. Sort of like a "vega" greeks for call and put options (I have been trying to game this rollercoaster of a stock market)

souvik101990 · Answer

Don't quote me on this, but schools will often choose to include data that favors them. Some schools will do that more than others, so be wary of employment numbers when less than 90% of the students are not recorded.

Marshall ($$) vs Kenan Flagler ($$) ?

Marshall ($$) vs Kenan Flagler ($$) ?

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