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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 24 Nov 2020, 20:00
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Hi AndrewN sir

I want to check the reason to reject A option:

Quote:
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.


A. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend
Show more


1. Position of Instead: they proposed instead xx
2. By which they intended could be written in direct and concise way: intended modify small steps as “small steps intended “ . “by which they” does not seem to add value.
3. Meaningwise:
Small steps by which they intend to : they intend with small steps -wrong
Vs
Small steps intended: small steps were intended. (intended modify series of small steps)

can you please suggest sir AndrewN
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 24 Nov 2020, 20:46
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zoezhuyan
GMATNinja, Dear GMATNinjaTwo, VeritasKarishma, AnthonyRitz, CJAnish, MartyTargetTestPrep,AndrewN,VeritasPrepBrian

I cannot understand why C is incorrect.
the intention of small steps is also to protect fish.
the v-ing modifier modifies the preceding clause that they instead propose small steps.

please help.

my mock of official GMAT prep 3&4 is 590, 600, I need to get 700+ before the end of Dec this year.
Hello, zoezhuyan. I have written a detailed post just above, here, on why choice (C) is suboptimal. Please let me know if it does not clarify your concerns.

As for your GMAT™ goal, I would urge you to focus on the questions themselves and their underpinnings instead of placing your success or failure in the balance with an end date of 31 December. Too much pressure will not allow you to think clearly and gain the sorts of insights that will help your score increase on its own. As much as you can, relax. Take in a few questions at a time and relish them; take the time to understand them, inside and out. Before you know it, a 600 can turn into a 650, and a 650 can grow into a 700.

- Andrew
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Dear AndrewN,
thanks for your suggestion.


AndrewN


(B) an ambitious plan [intended] to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish and
a series of smaller steps intended to protect the fish

(C) an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish and
a series of smaller steps, intending to protect the fish

Between the two options, (C) presents too many warning signals. (B) is much clearer and presents the ideas for the two plans in just about the same mold (nearly verbatim).

I hope that helps. Remember that grammatical conventions usually have kinks or exceptions somewhere. It is not that the -ing phrase in (C) could not work, but in SC questions, you are tasked with finding the best answer of the bunch, and for reasons I have drawn attention to above, I would shy away from (C).

Thank you for thinking to ask me about the question.

- Andrew
Show more
as for this explanation, it is novel for me, for example , consider first part "[i]an ambitious plan [color=#00a651]" omits "[intended]", because I usually will consider what second part, instead of the first part, omits when encounter comparison or pallelism questions,
and I am afraid it is hard for me to think in this way. I think I am not master on this way, and thus probably put your way aside first.

I just cannot figure out why following is not correct, as C says,
the intention of small steps is also to protect fish.
the v-ing modifier modifies the preceding clause that they instead propose small steps. why they instead proposed small steps, because they want to protect fish.

please help.
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 25 Nov 2020, 14:47
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Hi AndrewN sir

I want to check the reason to reject A option:

Quote:
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.


A. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend


1. Position of Instead: they proposed instead xx
2. By which they intended could be written in direct and concise way: intended modify small steps as “small steps intended “ . “by which they” does not seem to add value.
3. Meaningwise:
Small steps by which they intend to : they intend with small steps -wrong
Vs
Small steps intended: small steps were intended. (intended modify series of small steps)

can you please suggest sir AndrewN
Show more
Pardon the delayed response, imSKR. Today has been one of my busiest days in a while, and I still have a two-hour lesson coming up. (It is already dark where I live.) When I read over the original sentence just now, prior to reading your numbered points, I paused as soon as I hit instead of which they proposed, and again when I got to by which they intend. We have talked about the clear and concise expression of vital meaning before. What does the former convey that the terse proposing instead does not? Likewise, what does the latter convey that a single word in some form of to intend does not? Besides, back-to-back appearances of which are difficult to follow. I mean, instead of which... by which... We need to sort out each which just to make sense of everything. If we have multiple reasons to doubt an answer, then it is probably not a strong contender.

Thank you for thinking to ask me about your question.

- Andrew
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 25 Nov 2020, 15:04
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zoezhuyan


Dear AndrewN,
thanks for your suggestion.


AndrewN


(B) an ambitious plan [intended] to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish and
a series of smaller steps intended to protect the fish

(C) an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish and
a series of smaller steps, intending to protect the fish

Between the two options, (C) presents too many warning signals. (B) is much clearer and presents the ideas for the two plans in just about the same mold (nearly verbatim).

I hope that helps. Remember that grammatical conventions usually have kinks or exceptions somewhere. It is not that the -ing phrase in (C) could not work, but in SC questions, you are tasked with finding the best answer of the bunch, and for reasons I have drawn attention to above, I would shy away from (C).

Thank you for thinking to ask me about the question.

- Andrew
as for this explanation, it is novel for me, for example , consider first part "[i]an ambitious plan [color=#00a651]" omits "[intended]", because I usually will consider what second part, instead of the first part, omits when encounter comparison or pallelism questions,
and I am afraid it is hard for me to think in this way. I think I am not master on this way, and thus probably put your way aside first.

I just cannot figure out why following is not correct, as C says,
the intention of small steps is also to protect fish.
the v-ing modifier modifies the preceding clause that they instead propose small steps. why they instead proposed small steps, because they want to protect fish.

please help.
Show more
By no means do you have to approach a question in the same manner as I do to arrive at the correct answer. There are quite often multiple ways of attacking the same underlined portion. Have you read earlier responses, particularly those by Experts, on choice (C)? When multiple Expert voices arrive at the conclusion that (C) is a suboptimal way of expressing the meaning of the sentence, then I hope that at least one of those posts resonates with your own reasoning. Remember, you are not looking for any answer to work within an SC question; you are looking for the best answer of the five that are given, the one that expresses the essential information in the clearest and most concise way.

Please let me know if you have further questions about (C) after reading through earlier posts. (Or you can tell me that one of those posts made sense, and that would please me, too.)

- Andrew
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AndrewN

By no means do you have to approach a question in the same manner as I do to arrive at the correct answer. There are quite often multiple ways of attacking the same underlined portion. Have you read earlier responses, particularly those by Experts, on choice (C)? When multiple Expert voices arrive at the conclusion that (C) is a suboptimal way of expressing the meaning of the sentence, then I hope that at least one of those posts resonates with your own reasoning. Remember, you are not looking for any answer to work within an SC question; you are looking for the best answer of the five that are given, the one that expresses the essential information in the clearest and most concise way.

Please let me know if you have further questions about (C) after reading through earlier posts. (Or you can tell me that one of those posts made sense, and that would please me, too.)

- Andrew
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hi AndrewN, thanks a lot

I read the whole thread, and I still cannot understand why it is not reasonable as C states.

Would you please point?
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 26 Nov 2020, 18:19
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zoezhuyan

hi AndrewN, thanks a lot

I read the whole thread, and I still cannot understand why it is not reasonable as C states.

Would you please point?
Show more
I have a minor point to make about (C) that has not yet been brought up. In addition to the lack of parallelism I pointed out earlier—what I see as a major structural problem—there is also a slightly "off" placement of instead in (C). The sentence:

(C) Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending to protect the fish.

At the beginning of a standalone clause, to add emphasis, you might place instead in the beginning like this, but in a compound sentence, you would expect to see it come after the subject and follow proposed: they proposed instead. To be clear, I would NOT use this as an elimination point, but it is not ideal. I like to say that when the doubts start piling up against an answer, it is probably a safer bet to cut that one off and seek a better alternative. If you want to cling to (C), I suppose I cannot disabuse you of its merits; however, I would like to turn the tables and ask just what you think (B) is lacking that (C) does better? Remember, the goal is not to find any sentence that could work, and especially not one that sounds okay, but to select the best of the five options presented. So I ask again, when it comes to the key differences between (B) and (C), which I will highlight below, what does (C) achieve in the way of clarity of meaning that (B) does not?

Quote:
B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended [to protect the fish].

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending [to protect the fish].
Show more

- Andrew
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 26 Nov 2020, 21:09
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zoezhuyan

hi AndrewN, thanks a lot

I read the whole thread, and I still cannot understand why it is not reasonable as C states.

Would you please point?
I have a minor point to make about (C) that has not yet been brought up. In addition to the lack of parallelism I pointed out earlier—what I see as a major structural problem—there is also a slightly "off" placement of instead in (C). The sentence:

(C) Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending to protect the fish.

At the beginning of a standalone clause, to add emphasis, you might place instead in the beginning like this, but in a compound sentence, you would expect to see it come after the subject and follow proposed: they proposed instead. To be clear, I would NOT use this as an elimination point, but it is not ideal. I like to say that when the doubts start piling up against an answer, it is probably a safer bet to cut that one off and seek a better alternative. If you want to cling to (C), I suppose I cannot disabuse you of its merits; however, I would like to turn the tables and ask just what you think (B) is lacking that (C) does better? Remember, the goal is not to find any sentence that could work, and especially not one that sounds okay, but to select the best of the five options presented. So I ask again, when it comes to the key differences between (B) and (C), which I will highlight below, what does (C) achieve in the way of clarity of meaning that (B) does not?

Quote:
B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended [to protect the fish].

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending [to protect the fish].

- Andrew
Show more


Hi Sir AndrewN

Can I also mark B over C because of following 2 reasons:

Quote:
1. Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.

B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending
Show more

1. Verb+ing Modifier: proposing vs intending
B. Politicians decided something (cause) with the intention of proposing something (result effect)
C. Politician decided and they proposed with the result of intending to protect the fish?
Politicians decided and proposed with the result of intending something? Little skeptical in choosing this option
B makes more sense with overall meaning

2. Verb-ed Modifier (intended )
B says: intended correctly modifies series of small steps; make more sense
C says: no modifier for series of small steps
B makes more sense with overall meaning
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 27 Nov 2020, 07:09
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imSKR

Hi Sir AndrewN

Can I also mark B over C because of following 2 reasons:

Quote:
1. Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.

B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending

1. Verb+ing Modifier: proposing vs intending
B. Politicians decided something (cause) with the intention of proposing something (result effect)
C. Politician decided and they proposed with the result of intending to protect the fish?
Politicians decided and proposed with the result of intending something? Little skeptical in choosing this option
B makes more sense with overall meaning

2. Verb-ed Modifier (intended )
B says: intended correctly modifies series of small steps; make more sense
C says: no modifier for series of small steps
B makes more sense with overall meaning
Show more
Yes, imSKR, these are both valid considerations. And if you are reading, zoezhuyan, I hope you can appreciate the points that are made in the quoted post. Whether you agree or disagree with the points the community has made about (C), I would advise you at this point to let the dust settle on the question. If you find that you keep running into modifier issues, then you can study those more in earnest with or without the help of a qualified professional. Never let a single question hold up your preparation.

- Andrew
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 11 Aug 2021, 21:10
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JCLEONES
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.


A. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend

B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending

D. an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish was postponed by politicians, who instead proposed a series of smaller steps, intending

E. an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish has been postponed by politicians, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended
Show more

EducationAisle Why is A wrong? Is it just that B is of better quality?

TIA.
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 12 Aug 2021, 05:49
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ashmit99

EducationAisle Why is A wrong? Is it just that B is of better quality?
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Yeah, overall, concision definitely plays a role here.

Also notice that "which" in A is very far from its intended antecedent (which I presume is "plan").
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 22 Aug 2021, 04:46
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I know that A is wrong , but is it wrong because of usage of 'instead of which' or is it because of usage of 'by which'
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 27 Aug 2021, 17:59
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akt715
I know that A is wrong , but is it wrong because of usage of 'instead of which' or is it because of usage of 'by which'
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Neither phrase is technically a grammatical error, but both are problematic -- the first one in particular. Take another look at (A):

Quote:
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.
Show more
First, it's tough to figure out what the initial "which" is referring to. It clearly doesn't make sense to write "instead of endangered fish" or "instead of salmon." If you keep digging, you might land on "ambitious plan."

But now you have the odd phrase, "instead of [the ambitious plan] they..." Wait. So "they" are instead of the "ambitious plan." Who's "they?" The politicians? Why would politicians be instead of a plan? :think:

If you read it several times, you can puzzle out what all the pronouns are doing -- instead of the old plan, the politicians want to propose a new one. So I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they're definitively WRONG, but it takes an awful lot of work to arrive at a coherent meaning.

The next "which" isn't quite as bad, but the phrase, "by which they..." leaves the reader again having to scramble to figure out what the pronouns are doing. It seem as though "which" now refers to "steps" and "they" again goes back to "politicians." But wouldn't it be simpler and clearer and to dispense with the pronouns entirely and just write that the steps are intended to protect the fish, as (B) does? Why throw in two consecutive murky pronouns?

If one answer choice is clear and logical and another is littered with confusing and possibly illogical constructions, you're better off choosing the clear and logical option, even if the murky constructions aren't definitively wrong according to a usage guide.

I hope that helps!
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 27 Aug 2021, 21:57
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JCLEONES
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.
Show more


A. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend
Too many whichs distorts the meaning therefore out

B. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended
The meaning is perfect therefore let us hang on to it

C. politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan for protecting wild salmon and other endangered fish, and instead they proposed a series of smaller steps, intending
They refering back to fishes which is not makiing any sense

D. an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish was postponed by politicians, who instead proposed a series of smaller steps, intending
intending isn't the right usage therefore out

E. an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish has been postponed by politicians, proposing instead a series of smaller steps intended
The meaning isn't perfect therefore out
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 03 Feb 2022, 22:59
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Hello,
I want to check whether my reasons for rejecting the Choice A are correct.
Here Choice A mentions "series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish."

Here 'which' can refer to 'smaller steps' or 'series of smaller steps'

First mistake is that there is no clear referent.

Second: generally we will say: "We intend to protect the fish by reducing the fishing." OR "We intend to protect the fish by introducing new fishing laws."
In essence we say "by <doing something>".
Now as per the sentence "by smaller steps" or "by series of smaller step" do not seem correct. It could have been "by executing smaller steps"

Please tell me whether the above reasoning is ok.
And also point out other mistakes in Original sentence (If any).

Thanks and Regards!
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 04 Feb 2022, 00:47
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Anandanwar
Hello,
I want to check whether my reasons for rejecting the Choice A are correct.
Here Choice A mentions "series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish."

Here 'which' can refer to 'smaller steps' or 'series of smaller steps'
Show more
Whether you think 'which' refers to 'smaller steps' or 'series of smaller steps', it doesn't make much of a difference in terms of meaning. So, I would not bother too much about this.

In fact, the first "which" (instead of which) is a bigger issue, because "which" is quite far from the intended referent "plan".
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 04 Jul 2022, 08:51
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I know that A is wrong , but is it wrong because of usage of 'instead of which' or is it because of usage of 'by which'
Neither phrase is technically a grammatical error, but both are problematic -- the first one in particular. Take another look at (A):

Quote:
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.
First, it's tough to figure out what the initial "which" is referring to. It clearly doesn't make sense to write "instead of endangered fish" or "instead of salmon." If you keep digging, you might land on "ambitious plan."

But now you have the odd phrase, "instead of [the ambitious plan] they..." Wait. So "they" are instead of the "ambitious plan." Who's "they?" The politicians? Why would politicians be instead of a plan? :think:

If you read it several times, you can puzzle out what all the pronouns are doing -- instead of the old plan, the politicians want to propose a new one. So I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they're definitively WRONG, but it takes an awful lot of work to arrive at a coherent meaning.

The next "which" isn't quite as bad, but the phrase, "by which they..." leaves the reader again having to scramble to figure out what the pronouns are doing. It seem as though "which" now refers to "steps" and "they" again goes back to "politicians." But wouldn't it be simpler and clearer and to dispense with the pronouns entirely and just write that the steps are intended to protect the fish, as (B) does? Why throw in two consecutive murky pronouns?

If one answer choice is clear and logical and another is littered with confusing and possibly illogical constructions, you're better off choosing the clear and logical option, even if the murky constructions aren't definitively wrong according to a usage guide.

I hope that helps!
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GMATNinja

Can I eliminate this choice because each which refers to different noun ?
Generally, is it acceptable to use the same pronoun to refer different noun? << because it may be confusing readers and make the sentence unclear.
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 13 Jul 2022, 08:40
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I know that A is wrong , but is it wrong because of usage of 'instead of which' or is it because of usage of 'by which'
Neither phrase is technically a grammatical error, but both are problematic -- the first one in particular. Take another look at (A):

Quote:
Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically charged in the Pacific Northwest, politicians decided to postpone by at least five years an ambitious plan to protect wild salmon and other endangered fish, instead of which they proposed a series of smaller steps, by which they intend to protect the fish.
First, it's tough to figure out what the initial "which" is referring to. It clearly doesn't make sense to write "instead of endangered fish" or "instead of salmon." If you keep digging, you might land on "ambitious plan."

But now you have the odd phrase, "instead of [the ambitious plan] they..." Wait. So "they" are instead of the "ambitious plan." Who's "they?" The politicians? Why would politicians be instead of a plan? :think:

If you read it several times, you can puzzle out what all the pronouns are doing -- instead of the old plan, the politicians want to propose a new one. So I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they're definitively WRONG, but it takes an awful lot of work to arrive at a coherent meaning.

The next "which" isn't quite as bad, but the phrase, "by which they..." leaves the reader again having to scramble to figure out what the pronouns are doing. It seem as though "which" now refers to "steps" and "they" again goes back to "politicians." But wouldn't it be simpler and clearer and to dispense with the pronouns entirely and just write that the steps are intended to protect the fish, as (B) does? Why throw in two consecutive murky pronouns?

If one answer choice is clear and logical and another is littered with confusing and possibly illogical constructions, you're better off choosing the clear and logical option, even if the murky constructions aren't definitively wrong according to a usage guide.

I hope that helps!
GMATNinja

Can I eliminate this choice because each which refers to different noun ?
Generally, is it acceptable to use the same pronoun to refer different noun? << because it may be confusing readers and make the sentence unclear.
Show more
There's no rule that forbids us to use "which" to refer to different nouns in the same sentence, but if one option is confusing because it contains more than one "which," referring to more than one noun, and another option is clearer because it doesn't, well, you'll choose the clearer one, right?

So file this one under "not a concrete error, but certainly not ideal."

I hope that clears things up!
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Finally reaching a decision on an issue that has long been politically 17 Jul 2023, 11:54
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