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# In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees

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In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 11:22
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64% (00:57) correct 36% (00:52) wrong based on 648 sessions

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In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(B) All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.

(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.

(D) In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.

(E) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

Last edited by guerrero25 on 01 Oct 2013, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 11:36
Are you sure OA is E ?
IMO it should be C.
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 12:01
TirthankarP wrote:
Are you sure OA is E ?
IMO it should be C.

thanks for the correction . OA is C . could you please take some time to explain why C is right and not D ?
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 12:08
guerrero25 wrote:
TirthankarP wrote:
Are you sure OA is E ?
IMO it should be C.

thanks for the correction . OA is C . could you please take some time to explain why C is right and not D ?

(D) is incorrect because the semi-colon is incorrectly used in this case before "with".
Here a dependent clause is being separated by a semi-colon, which is similar to a full-stop.
How can you separate a dependent clause with a full-stop?

In (C), The independent clause "four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so" is correctly separated by a semi colon. Moreover the second part means:

We can't simply remove this to plead guilty after more are likely. (C) correctly uses more are likely to do so

to do so = to plead guilty.

But I don't understand what this "all told" mean in B, C and E
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 12:29
2
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guerrero25 wrote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.

All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.

In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.

All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.

IMO C

Do so refers to an action, including both the verb and the verb phrase (complete with object and modifiers).
Example: John was going to call his client to cancel the appointment, but he decided not to do so.

Here, “do so” refers to action “to call his client to cancel the appointment.” Similarly, in this question, four have pleaded guilty and more people are expected to plead guilty to the insider trading verdict.

A, B - changes the tense of the original sentence "were" and "had been". Also "more likely" at the end is an incomplete. more likely to do what ??

D - There should be an Independent Clause after the semi-colon, but here it is a dependent clause which can't stand by itself.

E- "more are likely" to do what ??
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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01 Oct 2013, 13:17
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guerrero25 wrote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.
(B) All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.
(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(D) In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(E) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.

I'm happy to contribute to this discussion.

Veritas usually has excellent questions. I'm not fond of the absolute phrase "all told" or the construction "while at the fund", both of which sound too colloquial to my ears. Nevertheless, on all the deciding points, this question is very good.

One of the issues concerns how to relate the two halves of the sentence, each of which is (or could be) an independent clause. The GMAT doesn't like the structures
"with" [noun][infinitive phrase]
"with" [noun][participial phrase]

to contain a full action. If you want to talk about a full action, use a full [noun]+[verb] clause. (A) & (B) & (D) make these mistakes, so they are right out.

The other two choices, (C) & (E) use a semi-colon, and correctly have an independent clause on each side. To decide between these, we get into the very sophisticated issue of repeating a predicate. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/repeating- ... -the-gmat/
In the second part of the sentence, we want to say that "four have pleaded guilty" and "more are likely to plead guilty", but we want to say that in a compact way that obviates the repetition of words. When we want to indicate a second reference to the same action, we use the simple construction "do so". Thus, the correct construction of the clause is: "four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so." Beautiful, elegant, and correct. Both (C) & (D) have this, but (D) was eliminated above, so only (C) can be the answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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28 Jul 2016, 17:29
Hi guys, is anybody confused with "all told" expression? Is it a common thing to say? What is that mean?
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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29 Jul 2016, 10:35
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AlexIV wrote:
Hi guys, is anybody confused with "all told" expression? Is it a common thing to say? What is that mean?

Dear AlexIV,
I'm happy to respond.

The expression "all told" indicates a summary. It often appears toward the end of an account about some event with several moving parts. I might say "This happened to A, this happened to B, etc." and then at the end, say in summary, "All told, this was the effect on everyone."

It is a short absolute phrase, because it's in the form of [noun] + [noun modifier]. It has roughly the same meaning as the subordinate clause "when all has been told." Again, this is a typical market signifying a summary of a complex situation. It's a bit casual: I don't know that I have ever seen it in an official question. I would say it is right on the border of formal enough that it might be used in an official question.

Does all this make sense?
Mike
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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29 Jul 2016, 14:55
Top Contributor
mikemcgarry wrote:
guerrero25 wrote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.
(B) All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.
(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(D) In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(E) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.

I'm happy to contribute to this discussion.

Veritas usually has excellent questions. I'm not fond of the absolute phrase "all told" or the construction "while at the fund", both of which sound too colloquial to my ears. Nevertheless, on all the deciding points, this question is very good.

One of the issues concerns how to relate the two halves of the sentence, each of which is (or could be) an independent clause. The GMAT doesn't like the structures
"with" [noun][infinitive phrase]
"with" [noun][participial phrase]

to contain a full action. If you want to talk about a full action, use a full [noun]+[verb] clause. (A) & (B) & (D) make these mistakes, so they are right out.

The other two choices, (C) & (E) use a semi-colon, and correctly have an independent clause on each side. To decide between these, we get into the very sophisticated issue of repeating a predicate. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/repeating- ... -the-gmat/
In the second part of the sentence, we want to say that "four have pleaded guilty" and "more are likely to plead guilty", but we want to say that in a compact way that obviates the repetition of words. When we want to indicate a second reference to the same action, we use the simple construction "do so". Thus, the correct construction of the clause is: "four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so." Beautiful, elegant, and correct. Both (C) & (D) have this, but (D) was eliminated above, so only (C) can be the answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike

Great Analysis

Let me know,if

Is there any real split /decision point available between All told and In all?
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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05 Aug 2016, 21:00
mikemcgarry wrote:
guerrero25 wrote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.
(B) All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.
(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(D) In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(E) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.

I'm happy to contribute to this discussion.

Veritas usually has excellent questions. I'm not fond of the absolute phrase "all told" or the construction "while at the fund", both of which sound too colloquial to my ears. Nevertheless, on all the deciding points, this question is very good.

One of the issues concerns how to relate the two halves of the sentence, each of which is (or could be) an independent clause. The GMAT doesn't like the structures
"with" [noun][infinitive phrase]
"with" [noun][participial phrase]

to contain a full action. If you want to talk about a full action, use a full [noun]+[verb] clause. (A) & (B) & (D) make these mistakes, so they are right out.

The other two choices, (C) & (E) use a semi-colon, and correctly have an independent clause on each side. To decide between these, we get into the very sophisticated issue of repeating a predicate. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/repeating- ... -the-gmat/
In the second part of the sentence, we want to say that "four have pleaded guilty" and "more are likely to plead guilty", but we want to say that in a compact way that obviates the repetition of words. When we want to indicate a second reference to the same action, we use the simple construction "do so". Thus, the correct construction of the clause is: "four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so." Beautiful, elegant, and correct. Both (C) & (D) have this, but (D) was eliminated above, so only (C) can be the answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike

(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so. - doesn't semi colon make it wrong. While at the fund; while at the fund what?????
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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24 Aug 2016, 11:59
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vbhvbaheti wrote:
I am a bit confused about the phrase "have been tied" - what tense is this ? is this present perfect ? if yes- why do we use been?

Dear vbhvbaheti,
I'm happy to respond.

The phrase "have been tied" is
a) present perfect tense, and
b) passive voice

The verb "to tie" here means to link conceptually, to show the chain of causality.

If I were a reporter or an investigator, I could say,
I tied at least fifteen employees to insider trading.
If we don't care about who did the investigating, we would use the passive voice. The GMAT often uses the passive voice when the "doer" of the action is unknown and/or irrelevant.
At least fifteen employees are tied to insider trading. = present tense, passive voice
At least fifteen employees were tied to insider trading. = past tense, passive voice
At least fifteen employees have been tied to insider trading. = present perfect tense, passive voice

Does this make sense?
Mike
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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11 Sep 2016, 16:40
mikemcgarry wrote:
guerrero25 wrote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.
(B) All told, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees had been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four having pleaded guilty and more likely.
(C) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(D) In all, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; with four having pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so.
(E) All told, at least fifteen Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund; four have pleaded guilty and more are likely.

I'm happy to contribute to this discussion.

Veritas usually has excellent questions. I'm not fond of the absolute phrase "all told" or the construction "while at the fund", both of which sound too colloquial to my ears. Nevertheless, on all the deciding points, this question is very good.

One of the issues concerns how to relate the two halves of the sentence, each of which is (or could be) an independent clause. The GMAT doesn't like the structures
"with" [noun][infinitive phrase]
"with" [noun][participial phrase]

to contain a full action. If you want to talk about a full action, use a full [noun]+[verb] clause. (A) & (B) & (D) make these mistakes, so they are right out.

The other two choices, (C) & (E) use a semi-colon, and correctly have an independent clause on each side. To decide between these, we get into the very sophisticated issue of repeating a predicate. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/repeating- ... -the-gmat/
In the second part of the sentence, we want to say that "four have pleaded guilty" and "more are likely to plead guilty", but we want to say that in a compact way that obviates the repetition of words. When we want to indicate a second reference to the same action, we use the simple construction "do so". Thus, the correct construction of the clause is: "four have pleaded guilty and more are likely to do so." Beautiful, elegant, and correct. Both (C) & (D) have this, but (D) was eliminated above, so only (C) can be the answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike

Hi Mike,

I got this question on my VP exam. I was extremely uncomfortable using the phrase "All told".
I thought answer should be between C & D( as others seems to be distorting meaning ), but for me decision point was "All told" vs "with four having", and so I went with D.
In similar questions how should one think ? as in there might be phrase, which makes you uncomfortable, but that could be correct answer.

Siddharth
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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11 Sep 2016, 16:51
mikemcgarry wrote:
vbhvbaheti wrote:
I am a bit confused about the phrase "have been tied" - what tense is this ? is this present perfect ? if yes- why do we use been?

Dear vbhvbaheti,
I'm happy to respond.

The phrase "have been tied" is
a) present perfect tense, and
b) passive voice

The verb "to tie" here means to link conceptually, to show the chain of causality.

If I were a reporter or an investigator, I could say,
I tied at least fifteen employees to insider trading.
If we don't care about who did the investigating, we would use the passive voice. The GMAT often uses the passive voice when the "doer" of the action is unknown and/or irrelevant.
At least fifteen employees are tied to insider trading. = present tense, passive voice
At least fifteen employees were tied to insider trading. = past tense, passive voice
At least fifteen employees have been tied to insider trading. = present perfect tense, passive voice

Does this make sense?
Mike

Hi,
That was really good explanation of present perfect tense. I always found perfect tenses bit difficult to master ( and I think GMAT knows that )

As a thumb rule for perfect tenses :

1.Past perfect : Timeline of 2 events which were completed in past are compared -> had + participle for 1st event and 2nd event must be in simple past.
2.Future perfect : Timeline of 2 events which will be completed in future are compared -> will/shall + participle for 1st event and 2nd event in simple future.
3.simple perfect : event started in past but is continuing in preset (or it just got over) -> has/have + participle

Is my understanding correct ?

In above 3 statements there is no use of 'been'. when do we use 'been' ?

- Siddharth
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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11 Sep 2016, 23:34
Expert's post
Top Contributor
Quote:
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees have been tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

(A) In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees were tied to insider trading while at the fund, with four to plead guilty and more likely.

If this is from the VERITAS stable, then I am extremely sad; would they give a practice question whose choice A is substantially different from the underlined part in the stimulus? or has it been wrongly transcribed by the poster?
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In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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13 Sep 2016, 11:41
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sidoknowia wrote:
Hi Mike,

I got this question on my VP exam. I was extremely uncomfortable using the phrase "All told".
I thought answer should be between C & D( as others seems to be distorting meaning ), but for me decision point was "All told" vs "with four having", and so I went with D.
In similar questions how should one think ? as in there might be phrase, which makes you uncomfortable, but that could be correct answer.

Siddharth

Dear Siddharth,

I'm happy to respond. My friend, the first point I will say is that no practice questions from any private company are at the level of the official verbal questions. It's relatively easy to write math questions that are just as good as official questions. The official verbal questions, though, are in another league, and a question of a private test prep company, however high quality, rarely approaches that sublime level. I say this as someone who writes questions as part of my job. All this is to say: do not make any judgments about how an official question will "feel" unless you are dealing with official questions.
sidoknowia wrote:
Hi,
That was really good explanation of present perfect tense. I always found perfect tenses bit difficult to master ( and I think GMAT knows that )

As a thumb rule for perfect tenses :

1.Past perfect : Timeline of 2 events which were completed in past are compared -> had + participle for 1st event and 2nd event must be in simple past.
2.Future perfect : Timeline of 2 events which will be completed in future are compared -> will/shall + participle for 1st event and 2nd event in simple future.
3.simple perfect : event started in past but is continuing in preset (or it just got over) -> has/have + participle

Is my understanding correct ?

In above 3 statements there is no use of 'been'. when do we use 'been' ?

- Siddharth

First of all, I will that students often mistakenly believe that the GMAT SC is primarily a test of grammar. In fact, grammar and logic and rhetoric are all equally important. In particular, use of the perfect tenses is as much a logical issue as a grammatical issue.

BTW, the "been" shows up either in the relatively rare perfect progressive combinations ("I have been reading this book since . . . ") or in passive construction in perfect tenses, ("By the Third Punic War, Carthage had been reduced to . . . ")

The past perfect is tricky on the GMAT, because it is one way to indicate a sequence of events in the past, but not the only way. If other words in the sentence make clear that past event A was before past event B, then the GMAT would consider it redundant to use the past perfect also. We don't have to use more than one indicator to communicate the same piece of the meaning.

The future perfect is exceedingly rare. I don't remember seeing any official question that uses it: perhaps one does somewhere, but it almost never shows up.

The present perfect is extremely subtle, because it could mean that the action started in the past and is still continuing, or it could mean that the action happened and finished in the past, but in some meaningful way, the effects still continue in the present moment. Consider these two sentences
1) The US Bill of Rights was framed to protect individuals from the federal government.
2) The US Bill of Rights has been framed to protect individuals from the federal government.
This actual event is far in the past: the US Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791. Both sentences are grammatically correct, but logically they have different connotations. The first is presenting this information as over and done: that happened long ago and is a finished fact. We would almost expect the author saying #1 to continue by explaining how the Bill of Rights no longer serves it purpose, or its role has changed, or something of that sort. The speaker, by using the simple past, is separating the effects of the Bill of Rights from our present circumstances.
By contrast, the use of the present perfect in #2 deeply affirms that the Bill of Rights continues to play this same role today, that it is essentially just as meaningful to modern Americans as it was to Americans in 1791. The author of #2 has a profoundly different emotional agenda than the author of #1 has.
As this example shows, the use of the present perfect delves deeply into questions of meaning, of what the deep intention of the author. These are the kinds of questions that the official GMAT SC questions regularly explore, and student who simply skate along the surface looking a grammar rules are continually befuddled by such questions. A good GMAT SC question used grammar and logic and rhetoric in a combine effort to produce a deep coherent meaning. If you appreciate a sentence at that level, then you are are on your way to GMAT SC mastery.

Does all this make sense?
Mike
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In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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13 Sep 2016, 17:48
mikemcgarry wrote:
sidoknowia wrote:
Hi Mike,

I got this question on my VP exam. I was extremely uncomfortable using the phrase "All told".
I thought answer should be between C & D( as others seems to be distorting meaning ), but for me decision point was "All told" vs "with four having", and so I went with D.
In similar questions how should one think ? as in there might be phrase, which makes you uncomfortable, but that could be correct answer.

Siddharth

Dear Siddharth,

I'm happy to respond. My friend, the first point I will say is that no practice questions from any private company are at the level of the official verbal questions. It's relatively easy to write math questions that are just as good as official questions. The official verbal questions, though, are in another league, and a question of a private test prep company, however high quality, rarely approaches that sublime level. I say this as someone who writes questions as part of my job. All this is to say: do not make any judgments about how an official question will "feel" unless you are dealing with official questions.
sidoknowia wrote:
Hi,
That was really good explanation of present perfect tense. I always found perfect tenses bit difficult to master ( and I think GMAT knows that )

As a thumb rule for perfect tenses :

1.Past perfect : Timeline of 2 events which were completed in past are compared -> had + participle for 1st event and 2nd event must be in simple past.
2.Future perfect : Timeline of 2 events which will be completed in future are compared -> will/shall + participle for 1st event and 2nd event in simple future.
3.simple perfect : event started in past but is continuing in preset (or it just got over) -> has/have + participle

Is my understanding correct ?

In above 3 statements there is no use of 'been'. when do we use 'been' ?

- Siddharth

First of all, I will that students often mistakenly believe that the GMAT SC is primarily a test of grammar. In fact, grammar and logic and rhetoric are all equally important. In particular, use of the perfect tenses is as much a logical issue as a grammatical issue.

BTW, the "been" shows up either in the relatively rare perfect progressive combinations ("I have been reading this book since . . . ") or in passive construction in perfect tenses, ("By the Third Punic War, Carthage had been reduced to . . . ")

The past perfect is tricky on the GMAT, because it is one way to indicate a sequence of events in the past, but not the only way. If other words in the sentence make clear that past event A was before past event B, then the GMAT would consider it redundant to use the past perfect also. We don't have to use more than one indicator to communicate the same piece of the meaning.

The future perfect is exceedingly rare. I don't remember seeing any official question that uses it: perhaps one does somewhere, but it almost never shows up.

The present perfect is extremely subtle, because it could mean that the action started in the past and is still continuing, or it could mean that the action happened and finished in the past, but in some meaningful way, the effects still continue in the present moment. Consider these two sentences
1) The US Bill of Rights was framed to protect individuals from the federal government.
2) The US Bill of Rights has been framed to protect individuals from the federal government.
This actual event is far in the past: the US Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791. Both sentences are grammatically correct, but logically they have different connotations. The first is presenting this information as over and done: that happened long ago and is a finished fact. We would almost expect the author saying #1 to continue by explaining how the Bill of Rights no longer serves it purpose, or its role has changed, or something of that sort. The speaker, by using the simple past, is separating the effects of the Bill of Rights from our present circumstances.
By contrast, the use of the past perfect in #2 deeply affirms that the Bill of Rights continues to play this same role today, that it is essentially just as meaningful to modern Americans as it was to Americans in 1791. The author of #2 has a profoundly different emotional agenda than the author of #1 has.
As this example shows, the use of the past perfect delves deeply into questions of meaning, of what the deep intention of the author. These are the kinds of questions that the official GMAT SC questions regularly explore, and student who simply skate along the surface looking a grammar rules are continually befuddled by such questions. A good GMAT SC question used grammar and logic and rhetoric in a combine effort to produce a deep coherent meaning. If you appreciate a sentence at that level, then you are are on your way to GMAT SC mastery.

Does all this make sense?
Mike

Yes,got it.
Key takeaway :
1. Understand POV of author, then go for grammar.
2. Use past perfect, when sequence of two past events is not clear ie simple past fails to convey meaning.
3. Present perfect, again boils down to meaning.

4. Oh, and if nothing works, pray (sorry - that's me, adding a point)

Thank you for explaining each and every point in very simple manner.
It was a big help - ( or rather I must say, it has been a big help )

- Siddharth
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Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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16 Sep 2016, 23:52
mikemcgarry wrote:

One of the issues concerns how to relate the two halves of the sentence, each of which is (or could be) an independent clause. The GMAT doesn't like the structures
"with" [noun][infinitive phrase]
"with" [noun][participial phrase]

to contain a full action. If you want to talk about a full action, use a full [noun]+[verb] clause. (A) & (B) & (D) make these mistakes, so they are right out.

Hi Mike,

While I was studying I found two OA of OG questions that follow the structure 'With + noun + participial phrase'

In OG 12 SC# 78

Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.

In OG 13 SC #114

Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and and growing an extra one or two.

I'm little confused as I have seen OG SC that contradict the rule you mentioned. Do I miss or misunderstand something??

Magoosh GMAT Instructor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 4677
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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18 Sep 2016, 11:40
Mo2men wrote:
Hi Mike,

While I was studying I found two OA of OG questions that follow the structure 'With + noun + participial phrase'

In OG 12 SC# 78
Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.

In OG 13 SC #114
Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and and growing an extra one or two.

I'm little confused as I have seen OG SC that contradict the rule you mentioned. Do I miss or misunderstand something??

Dear Mo2men,

I'm happy to respond.

The "with" + noun + participle structure is not automatically wrong. There's a subtle distinction that I explain in this blog:
with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction

Does this make sense?
Mike
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Mike McGarry
Magoosh Test Prep

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

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Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 1527
In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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18 Sep 2016, 12:43
mikemcgarry wrote:
Dear Mo2men,

I'm happy to respond.

The "with" + noun + participle structure is not automatically wrong. There's a subtle distinction that I explain in this blog:
[url="http://magoosh.com/gmat/2015/with-noun-participle-on-gmat-sentence-correction/"]with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction[/url]

Does this make sense?
Mike

Dear Mike,

I would like to thank you for your reply. I reviewed your blog and it is spot on and really makes sense.

SVP
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 1527
Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees [#permalink]

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19 Sep 2016, 02:35
mikemcgarry wrote:
Dear Mo2men,

I'm happy to respond.

The "with" + noun + participle structure is not automatically wrong. There's a subtle distinction that I explain in this blog:
[url="http://magoosh.com/gmat/2015/with-noun-participle-on-gmat-sentence-correction/"]with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction[/url]

Does this make sense?
Mike

Dear Mike,
I would like to expand little further about another adverbial phrase "because of". In Magoosh idiom book, it was mentioned in page 47 that "because of+ NOUN+ VERBing" is 100% wrong. However, I found a SC in GMATprep 1 that breaks the rule mentioned in the book.

on-account-of-a-law-passed-in-1993-making-it-a-crime-70502.html?fl=similar

Because of a law passed in 1933 making it a crime punishable by imprisonment for a United States citizen to hold gold in the form of bullion or coins, immigrants found that on arrival in the United States they had to surrender all of the gold they had brought with them.

How can I differentiate between the right and wrong answers with "because of+ NOUN+ VERBing" ? Have you set any great rules like "with ...." modification in your blog?

Re: In all, fifteen or more Greenwich Capital employees   [#permalink] 19 Sep 2016, 02:35

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