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505-555 Level|   Meaning/Logical Predication|               
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 21 Apr 2019, 14:35
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daagh
A is the best for using of right idiom - for the building of - ; the best
in the given context. B,C and E suggest the tons of stones themselves build, an absurd possibility. -They - has no sensible referent.

D is wrong because of the awkward expression - there could be built. -
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Exactly. They has no antecedent with it. What is "they" referring to? stones? France? its ambiguous and that should allow you be eliminate B,C, and E right away.

Then, coming to D: could be built is incorrect grammar and awkward.

Hence, A. Never rule out the first option so easily :)
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 15 Jul 2019, 11:29
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tough question !!! how answer A maintain parallelism ? this is a list I think ......
..."for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some"

answer A and D IS VERY confusing.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 30 Jul 2019, 07:20
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VeritasKarishma GMATNinja could you please explain issue with option D?
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 30 Mar 2020, 23:07
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone were quarried in France for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some tens of thousands of parish churches.


(A) for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

(B) in order that they might build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

(C) so as they might build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

(D) so that there could be built eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and

(E) such that they could build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and
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GMATNinja

After applying your 1st rule I was able to eliminate B,C,E.

But confused between A and D.

Meaningwise both seemed correct. Kindly help.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 31 Mar 2020, 01:23
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The best I can say about "there could be built XYZ" is that it doesn't break any clear rule. It's simply that NO ONE talks like this in modern times. It sounds like something from a historical text or perhaps the Bible: "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour."

A also does a better job of conveying the meaning. D tells us that the quarrying ALLOWS us to build these buildings. A clearly states that the stone was FOR these buildings. With D, it might just be that all that quarrying left room for buildings, which were actually made of wood. That's not what most people would think, but there's no benefit in D to justify this roundabout, less clear way of saying things.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 01 Jul 2020, 13:34
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In three centuries--from 1050 to 1350--several million tons of stone were quarried in France for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some tens of thousands of parish churches.

(A) for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

Correct

(B) in order that they might build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

"they" could only refer to "million tons of stone". However, stone cannot build churches. wrong.

(C) so as they might build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some

"so as" needs a "to" after it. Even so, "so as to" is rarely used in gmat, and instead, we substitute "so as to" for "to" or "in order to".

another correct usage is "so" + cause + "as to" + effect. However, that "effect" usually refers to a state/condition. example: i am so ugly as to be viscerally repulsive to women. Action verbs for "effect" is rarely used.

Anyways, the "so as" + clause in the answer choice is wrong

(D) so that there could be built eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and

In GMAT, there are a few things that are wrong including "there could be done sth", "there be sth done", "there being + noun", there was sth (intangible thing)" ->for example, "there was transmission" is wrong. We only use "there be" for tangible things such as "there are wolves".

(E) such that they could build eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and

"they" is wrong, same as B. In addition, "such that" is idiomatic unless you separate them like: "she is such a beautiful girl that I want to dance with her"
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 01 Jul 2020, 23:01
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Well, even if the the verb is before the subject in D, that doesn't make it wrong. 'Awkwardness' is no parameter to judge grammar. By same measure, subjunctive is also 'awkward', but it is grammatically correct.

It might just be a matter of preference for GMAT to go for A over D. Let's not try to fit in explanations once we know which answer is wrong and which is right.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 02 Jul 2020, 06:49
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altairahmad
Well, even if the the verb is before the subject in D, that doesn't make it wrong. 'Awkwardness' is no parameter to judge grammar. By same measure, subjunctive is also 'awkward', but it is grammatically correct.

It might just be a matter of preference for GMAT to go for A over D. Let's not try to fit in explanations once we know which answer is wrong and which is right.
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I totally agree with you when you said no assumption/pre-judgment after knowing the correct answers. I saw this kind of posts a lot, including some instructors', on this forum. That's why I always keep being skeptical of any official answers until I fully understand why this is wrong.

However, for D, my prep book gave me some principles which tell us what expressions must be wrong in GMAT. If you look back to my post on this problem, I quoted what my prep book said:

"there could be done sth", "there be sth done", "there being + noun", and " there was/were sth (intangible thing)" are definitely wrong in GMAT. Note that for the last one, "there was/were + tangible nouns" is correct.

Hope this helps.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 06 Jun 2022, 12:23
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DmitryFarber GMATNinja

After reading all the posts on this topic, I would lean towards believing that option D (though grammatically correct and error-free) sounds slightly archaic, and that there's no good reason to use the construction.

However what I cannot wrap my head around is the usage of "for the building of" in option A. If I were to write this sentence, I would've preferred using "to build" instead of "for the building of" because the latter is wordy (and maybe unidiomatic too I guess?), which is why I eliminated A while attempting this question.

Could you please share your thoughts on the acceptance of this construction in A? Especially when the only good reason to eliminate D is an apparent awkwardness.

Posted from my mobile device
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 06:09
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kungfury42
DmitryFarber GMATNinja

After reading all the posts on this topic, I would lean towards believing that option D (though grammatically correct and error-free) sounds slightly archaic, and that there's no good reason to use the construction.

However what I cannot wrap my head around is the usage of "for the building of" in option A. If I were to write this sentence, I would've preferred using "to build" instead of "for the building of" because the latter is wordy (and maybe unidiomatic too I guess?), which is why I eliminated A while attempting this question.

Could you please share your thoughts on the acceptance of this construction in A? Especially when the only good reason to eliminate D is an apparent awkwardness.

Posted from my mobile device
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Hello kungfury42,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, the phrase "for the building of" is NOT unidiomatic; the infinitive verb form ("to + base form of verb" - "to + build" in your example) is the preferred construction for referring to the purpose/intent of an action, but it is not the only valid one.

Ultimately, although Option A is not as concise as it could have been, it is still more concise and direct than D and otherwise error-free, making it the superior answer choice; remember, on GMAT we must look for the best answer choice, not a perfect one.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
Experts' Global Team
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 06:16
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Hi AndrewN,

What are your thoughts on this question from OG 9? Do you think such an ill-constructed question type could appear in GMAT today?
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 07:41
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PyjamaScientist
Hi AndrewN,

What are your thoughts on this question from OG 9? Do you think such an ill-constructed question type could appear in GMAT today?
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Hello, PyjamaScientist. I am of a similar mind as AjiteshArun on the matter (see, for instance, this post): you never quite know what the GMAT™ will throw at you on the day. That is, even though we can point to recent editions of the OG and say that certain factors—e.g., idiomatic constructions—appear not to be tested in the same manner they may have been in the past, we should not jump to the conclusion that a question such as the one above would not appear on the modern exam. There are some great talking points in this question:

  • Pronouns and meaning (specifically, they in answer choices (B), (C), (E))
  • Faulty idioms (in order that they, so as they)
  • The difference between referring to a large number with or without some

As you can probably appreciate, the last split is not one we need to turn to in this particular question—as with many official SC questions, there are multiple ways in which to create meaningful distinctions. Here, we do not need to be historians to determine just how many parish churches were built from the quarried stone. So, in my view, this question looks good, not hinging on a single narrow idiom, but testing a few concepts that show up in more recently released questions, pronoun and meaning issues chief among them.

Thank you for thinking to ask.

- Andrew
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 08:16
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Hi AndrewN,

Thank you for taking the time to write back.

My question was mainly for the barely any distinction between (A) and (D) here.
Quote:
In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone were quarried in France for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some tens of thousands of parish churches.
(A) for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some
(D) so that there could be built eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and
Show more
As Daagh and Dmitryfaber have duly noted here. There are not many issues with (D), no grammatical errors, or meaning issues. Daagh wrote in his post that (D) uses the awkward expression "so that there could be built", but (A) also uses the awkward expression "for the building of". So, how does one make out which one is "less awkward" than the other and make the choice? I agree this question tests some other relevant concepts and (A), (C), (E) can be eliminated using those concepts. But, how does one make the differentiation between (A) and (D) here given both are awkward and correct with same meaning.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 08:37
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PyjamaScientist
Hi AndrewN,

Thank you for taking the time to write back.

My question was mainly for the barely any distinction between (A) and (D) here.
Quote:
In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone were quarried in France for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some tens of thousands of parish churches.
(A) for the building of eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and some
(D) so that there could be built eighty cathedrals, five hundred large churches, and
As Daagh and Dmitryfaber have duly noted here. There are not many issues with (D), no grammatical errors, or meaning issues. Daagh wrote in his post that (D) uses the awkward expression "so that there could be built", but (A) also uses the awkward expression "for the building of". So, how does one make out which one is "less awkward" than the other and make the choice? I agree this question tests some other relevant concepts and (A), (C), (E) can be eliminated using those concepts. But, how does one make the differentiation between (A) and (D) here given both are awkward and correct with same meaning.
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I think DmitryFarber has said it best in this earlier post, which I believe you may be referring to. There is a lack of clarity in what answer choice (D) conveys:

DmitryFarber
A also does a better job of conveying the meaning. D tells us that the quarrying ALLOWS us to build these buildings. A clearly states that the stone was FOR these buildings. With D, it might just be that all that quarrying left room for buildings, which were actually made of wood. That's not what most people would think, but there's no benefit in D to justify this roundabout, less clear way of saying things.
Show more
I see this valid interpretation as a problem. If the sentence seems to present a cause-and-effect relationship—logically, that stones were quarried with which to build thousands of churches—we should not be left wondering about the effect. That is a meaning-based issue that I could see popping up on the GMAT™ now or in the future. A native English speaker would admittedly have an edge: (D) looks antiquated and would "feel" off. However, a more debatable point lies right there in front of us in just what the sentence seems to be saying. (I imagine the OG 9 or 10 tossing out the label "Logical Predication.")

Thank you for following up.

- Andrew
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 09:25
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Andrewn
A native English speaker would admittedly have an edge: (D) looks antiquated and would "feel" off.
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On one hand, GMATNinja has spent countless hours and burnt countless calories preaching not to fall for the "feel" of the choices. But, at the same time, as this question suggests, one "does need" that "feel" quotient to pick an answer choice.
Alas, GMAT's world is tough.
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 07 Jun 2022, 11:48
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Andrewn
A native English speaker would admittedly have an edge: (D) looks antiquated and would "feel" off.
On one hand, GMATNinja has spent countless hours and burnt countless calories preaching not to fall for the "feel" of the choices. But, at the same time, as this question suggests, one "does need" that "feel" quotient to pick an answer choice.
Alas, GMAT's world is tough.
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Actually, I think you are missing the larger point I was hoping to convey, the opposite of what you have written above. I agree with Charles. I would not counsel someone to sort through answer choices by using the Force or some such. However, I think a native English speaker would undoubtedly find the (A)/(D) split much easier than a non-native would, without consciously thinking about or knowing why. In other words, one does not need to rely on "feel" to arrive at an accurate conclusion. I was saying that I agree with DmitryFarber that the meaning conveyed in (D) is questionable, even without resorting to its odd "sound."

I concur that the GMAT™ can throw some tough questions our way, and that it can seem cruel at times. But our goal should be to embrace such challenges and seek to rise to the occasion.

Keep going.

- Andrew
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 15 Jun 2022, 16:02
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AndrewN
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Andrewn
A native English speaker would admittedly have an edge: (D) looks antiquated and would "feel" off.
On one hand, GMATNinja has spent countless hours and burnt countless calories preaching not to fall for the "feel" of the choices. But, at the same time, as this question suggests, one "does need" that "feel" quotient to pick an answer choice.
Alas, GMAT's world is tough.
Actually, I think you are missing the larger point I was hoping to convey, the opposite of what you have written above. I agree with Charles. I would not counsel someone to sort through answer choices by using the Force or some such. However, I think a native English speaker would undoubtedly find the (A)/(D) split much easier than a non-native would, without consciously thinking about or knowing why. In other words, one does not need to rely on "feel" to arrive at an accurate conclusion. I was saying that I agree with DmitryFarber that the meaning conveyed in (D) is questionable, even without resorting to its odd "sound."

I concur that the GMAT™ can throw some tough questions our way, and that it can seem cruel at times. But our goal should be to embrace such challenges and seek to rise to the occasion.

Keep going.

- Andrew
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I'll echo Andrew's wise words here. While a native speaker's ear may pick up on some unconventional usage that a nonnative speaker's might miss, that same ear may, on another question, get rid of the correct answer because it doesn't sound right!

The point: a "good" ear can work against you too. That's why it's better to rely on logic and clarity.

Take another look at the relevant portion of (D):

Quote:
Several million tons of stone were quarried in France so that there could be built eighty cathedrals.
Show more
When I saw "there", my first thought was that it referred to France. They quarried the material to France, so they could build there. But then I read it again, and thought that "there" was one of those goofy place-holders, the kind you might see in a phrase like "there is a problem." Then I read it a third time... and still wasn't sure what "there" was doing.

And usually when we see the construction, "there could be," we expect a noun to follow, right? "There could be fudge!" "There could be burritos!" :-P :-P :-P

But here, we get "there could be built." Definitively wrong? Maybe not. But still pretty darn confusing, even after I reread it.

If the meaning in (A) is clear and logical, and I (still) can't make sense of (D), I can confidently select (A). No instinctive "feel" is necessary.

I hope that helps!
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In three centuries—from 1050 to 1350—several million tons of stone wer 20 Jun 2023, 04:05
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Hello from the GMAT Club VerbalBot!

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