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Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener

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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   20 Apr 2015, 11:08
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thangvietnam wrote:
macjas wrote:
Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.

A one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and
B one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
C they lose one arm they quickly replace it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating,
D they lose one arm they are quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating,
E they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,


I do not like this problem though it is in the latest og book. overcompensating and growing can not be separate actions. so "and" is wrong to connect them. the separateness is tested a lot on gmat sc and is central staple gmat play on us . strange, why gmat make mistake on this point.

or my english grammar is not good enough.

dont worry, there is only one question like this in the latest og book.

Dear thangvietnam,
I'm happy to respond. :-) Yes, this is SC #114, in the OG13 and the OG2015.

It's absolutely true that the OA, (B), is not ideal. The "and" link between the two participles, "overcompensating" and "growing," is certainly questionable. Technically, are those two actions identical? Does losing the arm set off a biological chain of events in the starfish that we would called "overcompensating," and that one result among many of this "overcompensating" is the "growing" of two arms? I certainly don't know enough about the biology of starfish to answer this question either way, but it's at least conceivable that the actions "overcompensating" and "growing" are not coextensively identical and therefore merit an "and" conjunction. Admittedly, this is somewhat ambiguous.

Similarly, the "with" + [noun] + [participle] structure---actually, two participles in parallel---is also questionable. Certainly, this structure, with different emphases, is considered incorrect on some questions. Again, this is iffy.

So, (B) has nothing that is clearly, unambiguously wrong, but it has some "shades of gray" problems. What makes it the right answer is that each other answer has something definitively wrong about it. Choices (A) & (C) & (D) all make trainwreck pronoun errors, so they are not even possibly correct. In (E), the big problem is subtle. In a condition statement, an if-then statement, the "if" part is called the premise, and the "then" part is called the conclusion. The grammar supports the logic of the conditional statement when both premise and conclusion are in the same voice---either both active or both passive. (E) makes the mistake of having an active premise and a passive conclusion, and this sounds undefinably awkward. Since (E) can be right, it only leaves (A) with all its imperfections.

Remember, this is #114 in the OG. There is a rough correlation between question number and difficulty, and since this is a higher question, it is one of the more difficult questions in the OG. This is one characteristic of the more difficult SC questions: the OA is far from ideal, but it's better than the other four answers, each of which is wrong for a clear and discernible reason.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   12 May 2017, 07:15
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macjas wrote:
The Official Guide for GMAT Review 2015

Practice Question
Question No.: SC 114
Page: 693

Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.

A one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and
B one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
C they lose one arm they quickly replace it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating,
D they lose one arm they are quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating,
E they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,


First Glance

The word if shows up right before the underline; this word is often part of the idiom if X (then) Y. Further, the Parallelism marker and appears at the end of the underline.

Issues

(1) Pronouns: it; they
Parallelism: if X then Y

The original sentence contains this piece: If one arm is lost it quickly replaces it. Check the pronouns.

(A) if one arm is lost...(then) it quickly replaces it
(B) if one arm is lost...(then) it is quickly replaced
(C) if they lose one arm...(then) they quickly replace it
(D) if they lose one arm...(then) they are quickly replaced
(E) if they lose one arm...(then) it is quickly replaced

If one sentence uses the same pronoun to refer to two different things, the sentence is considered ambiguous─and therefore wrong. In answer (A), the first it refers to starfish; the second refers to one arm.

Notice, too, that the noun starfish could be singular or plural. Which is it in this sentence? Check out the verb: starfish have. He have? Or they have? They have is correct, so starfish is plural. The pronoun it is singular, another reason to eliminate (A). Check the remaining answers for both pronoun ambiguity and singular versus plural.

Answer (D) also contains the double pronoun error. The first instance of the plural pronoun they refers to the starfish, while the second refers to one arm (which is also a number mismatch─one arm is singular). Eliminate answers (A) and (D).

This examination also highlights the parallelism required for the idiom if X (then) Y. (Note: The word "then" is optional: this problem doesn't use it) When X and Y are in the form of clauses, the entire clauses should be parallel. A subject pronoun in the second clause should refer to the subject of the first clause. Eliminate answers (A), (D), and (E) for failing to do so.

(2) Meaning

The original sentence indicates that starfish can regenerate an arm, though they sometimes overcompensate and grow extra arms:

(A), (C): by overcompensating and growing an extra one
(B), (D), (E): with the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one

In answers (A) and (C), the preposition by means that the starfish replaces the arm by overcompensating. The meaning is illogical: the first arm grown is not an overcompensation; rather, the first one is the intended replacement arm. Only the extra arms represent overcompensation─and the the extras, by definition, are not the replacement arm. The other choices use the preposition with instead of by, avoiding the meaning error. Eliminate answers (A) and (C).

The Correct Answer

Correct answer (B) employs a properly parallel structure with the pronoun usage: If one arm is lost it is quickly replaced. This choice also correctly uses with to introduce the extra information that the animal sometimes accidentally grown extra arms.
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   28 Jun 2017, 19:15
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Hi,

Is it possible to eliminate option (A) because of ambiguous antecedents as there are two "IT" and each of them could refer to Starfish or Arm?
In option (B) though "IT" should logically refer to one arm, it may also refer to starfish. Is the use of "IT" right in option B?
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   30 Jun 2017, 15:00
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anandch1994 wrote:
Hi,

Is it possible to eliminate option (A) because of ambiguous antecedents as there are two "IT" and each of them could refer to Starfish or Arm?
In option (B) though "IT" should logically refer to one arm, it may also refer to starfish. Is the use of "IT" right in option B?

Dear anandch1994,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes, the two occurrences of "it" in (A), referring to two different antecedents, are a big pronoun no-no. That's a clear reason why (A) is wrong.

For the "it" in (B), I'll say that there are many levels to the pronoun-antecedent relationship. A sentence can involve grammar, logic, and rhetoric to establish a link between the pronoun and its antecedent. Here, in (B), there are two quite different facets linking "it" and the antecedent "one arm." The first is simply proximity: the noun "one arm" is the closest preceding noun before the pronoun. The second is akin to parallelism, which often plays a huge role in the pronoun-antecedent relation. In the two clauses right next to each other, "one arm" and "it" are subjects of passive verbs, so that establishes a deep logical connection between these two that strengthens the pronoun-antecedent relationship. Those two factors together are enough to cement the relationship.

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   26 Jul 2017, 05:51
Hi Expert,

I did not understand the meaning of the sentence.

My question is -- How an arm can be replced by an AMINAL overcompensating and growing an extra arm?

My reasoning-- an arm should be replaced by an arm, not by an animal.

Please help
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   26 Jul 2017, 07:05
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AR15J wrote:
Hi Expert,

I did not understand the meaning of the sentence.

My question is -- How an arm can be replced by an AMINAL overcompensating and growing an extra arm?

My reasoning-- an arm should be replaced by an arm, not by an animal.

Please help


Notice the comma before the prepositional phrase modifier "with the animal sometimes overcompensating and..........". With the comma, this modifier (like present participle -ing modifiers) refers to the entire preceding clause and not just the preceding word. Thus in this case the phrase modifier "with the animal sometimes overcompensating and.........." refers NOT to the verb "replaced", but to the entire preceding clause "it is quickly replaced", describing that not just the arm is replaced, but also additional arms are grown.

In absence of the comma your reasoning would be valid (that an arm cannot be replaced with an animal).
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   26 Jul 2017, 12:25
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AR15J wrote:
Hi Expert,

I did not understand the meaning of the sentence.

My question is -- How an arm can be replced by an AMINAL overcompensating and growing an extra arm?

My reasoning-- an arm should be replaced by an arm, not by an animal.

Please help



Hello AR15J,

I will be glad to help you with this one. :)

Let me present to you the original sentence:

Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.

Let's now understand the meaning of this sentence.

The sentence talks about starfish. The author of the sentence says that a starfish has some five to eight arms. This creature has a strong ability to regenerate. Then the author presents why he says that a starfish has the great regenerative ability. Whenever a starfish loses an arm, it quickly replaces it by growing another arm. How Sometimes, it even overcompensates and grows an extra one or two arms.

So, it is the starfish that replaces the lost arm by quickly growing another arm or may be two because of its strong regenerative ability.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 07 Nov 2017, 18:49
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Unless you want to break your head spending precious seconds in the hall, this question requires knowing the use of compound participles and pronoun reference. One need not even look at the question beyond knowing that there is another modifier waiting in the wings and that to be parallel, it should have been compounded with the first modifier by one of the fanboys. C, D, and E, fortunately, on that score, is a three-in-one fall, while A couldn't have muddled up the pronoun reference of 'it' any worse. B is the lonely rider. All in all, an easy meat for the grammar fundamentalist

Originally posted by daagh on 07 Nov 2017, 07:35.
Last edited by daagh on 07 Nov 2017, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   08 Nov 2017, 01:39
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GMATNinja wrote:
Quote:


Quote:
(C) they lose one arm they quickly replace it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating,

And now we get into an interesting thing here! “Starfish” could, in theory, be either singular or plural. (Much like the word “media” or “data” or “deer”.) The GMAT has a very consistent habit in these cases: the sentence will always give you some other indication of whether the word is singular or plural.

And in this case? Well, the sentence later refers to “starfish” as “the animal” – singular! So “they” shouldn’t be used here.



Can we also take a hint from "Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability" to decide if starfish is singular/plural
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   13 Nov 2017, 11:45
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KGump wrote:

Can we also take a hint from "Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability" to decide if starfish is singular/plural

Arg, I just made an a$$ of myself. You’re totally right, KGump. File under: writing QOTD explanations after midnight isn’t my smartest idea.

I edited my explanation above – it should be much less airheaded now. Thank you for catching my mistake!
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   13 Nov 2017, 11:56
Sorry GMATNinja for the late reply. I was ill and couldn't turn on my laptop for a week.
Well coming back to my question, I don't agree with your explanation above. (please correct me if I am wrong anywhere)

My understanding:
Question statement --> Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, havea strong regenerative ability --> states that starfish are PLURAL. So don't understand as to why E is incorrect.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I really don't understand as to how option B is better than E. originally I chose E.
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   13 Nov 2017, 12:01
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gmatexam439 wrote:
Sorry GMATNinja for the late reply. I was ill and couldn't turn on my laptop for a week.
Well coming back to my question, I don't agree with your explanation above. (please correct me if I am wrong anywhere)

My understanding:
Question statement --> Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, havea strong regenerative ability --> states that starfish are PLURAL. So don't understand as to why E is incorrect.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I really don't understand as to how option B is better than E. originally I chose E.

Ugh, sorry that you got that sick! You're feeling better, I hope?

And I think you were writing your response just as I wrote the one above. :-) I made a couple of totally boneheaded mistakes in my original explanation! They're fixed above, and I deliberately addressed your question in the new version of the full explanation. Let me know if that doesn't clear up the doubts?
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   13 Nov 2017, 12:23
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GMATNinja wrote:
gmatexam439 wrote:
Sorry GMATNinja for the late reply. I was ill and couldn't turn on my laptop for a week.
Well coming back to my question, I don't agree with your explanation above. (please correct me if I am wrong anywhere)

My understanding:
Question statement --> Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, havea strong regenerative ability --> states that starfish are PLURAL. So don't understand as to why E is incorrect.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I really don't understand as to how option B is better than E. originally I chose E.

Ugh, sorry that you got that sick! You're feeling better, I hope?

And I think you were writing your response just as I wrote the one above. :-) I made a couple of totally boneheaded mistakes in my original explanation! They're fixed above, and I deliberately addressed your question in the new version of the full explanation. Let me know if that doesn't clear up the doubts?


Thank you sensei, I am doing fine now.

Regarding the problem: I think you must have been devoid of a "Banana Choco-Caramel pudding" that I ate today morning, so you lost your focus ;)

Coming back to the explanation above:

"Let’s line this one up with (B) to make it easier to compare them:

(B) one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
(E) they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,

So we have three meaningful differences here, and none of them are smoking guns, but all of them seem to point in the same direction.

In that first chunk of the sentence, the big difference is that (E) uses the pronoun “they”, which is potentially ambiguous, since it could refer back to “starfish” or “arms” – and since “arms” is the most recent plural, you could argue that “they” is a legit problem here. Honestly, I’m not completely convinced by this – there are plenty of official SC questions with similar ambiguities in the correct answers. But in this case, the pronoun issue gives me a very slight preference for (B).

Second, we have some funny business with the placement of the word “sometimes.” The thing that “sometimes” happens is “overcompensating”, so it makes sense to have “sometimes” right next to that word. Is it totally wrong to say “sometimes with the animal overcompensating”? Nope. But again, I’d have a very slight preference for (B) based on the placement of “sometimes.” "

I think the highlighted part isn't making any sense in context to the question.

But "something" really took the ice on the cake. I think this might be a strong reason to go in favour of B. This helped a lot sire.

Thank you for considering this question and for replying patiently to my doubts.
Regards
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   13 Nov 2017, 12:48
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gmatexam439 wrote:

Regarding the problem: I think you must have been devoid of a "Banana Choco-Caramel pudding" that I ate today morning, so you lost your focus ;)

Yes! Clearly, I was underfed when I made those mistakes. Only seven meals that day... definitely not enough. :idontknow:
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   02 Nov 2018, 07:50
macjas wrote:
Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.

(A) one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and
(B) one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
(C) they lose one arm they quickly replace it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating,
(D) they lose one arm they are quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating,
(E) they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,


In conditional sentences, isn't the comma necessary?
-If one arm is lost, (then) it is quickly replaced -- I understand that "then" is not necessary, but I thought that comma was necessary.

AjiteshArun , GMATNinja , MagooshExpert , VeritasPrepBrian, GMATGuruNY , VeritasKarishma , DmitryFarber other experts - please enlighten
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   02 Nov 2018, 19:44
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Skywalker18 wrote:
In conditional sentences, isn't the comma necessary?
-If one arm is lost, (then) it is quickly replaced -- I understand that "then" is not necessary, but I thought that comma was necessary.

AjiteshArun , GMATNinja , MagooshExpert , VeritasPrepBrian, GMATGuruNY , VeritasKarishma , DmitryFarber other experts - please enlighten
I would normally expect a comma in if X, Y. Maybe not in this specific case, though. Given the number of commas already present, dropping the comma is perhaps the right call.

However, the larger point here is that the GMAT does not really test commas. Almost all the "rules" that I've seen on this forum are derived from observations of comma usage in correct and incorrect options. This approach is only as reliable as the data set on which it is applied. Every single GMAT question? Great. Only a small set of questions (the ones that have been retired and released to the public)? Iffy.
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   10 Nov 2018, 01:56
BukrsGmat wrote:
Darmody wrote:
thangvietnam wrote:
I fail this question

"overcompensating" and " growing" are not independent actions and the use of "and" is not suitable. A and B are out
the 2 actions are of the same event. comma+doing is used not "and"

I am confused. pls, help


same I crossed B because I thought growing had to modify overcompensate otherwise it does not make sense to have the verb "overcompensate" alone like that. Can somebody explain? And also would it be possible to explain what is exactly is wrong with E? Thx !


Let's Focus on B and E
Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.


B one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
E they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,

1 Usage of sometimes : meaning in E is changed, as if sometimes with the animal
Sometimes should come near what it is modifying...they replace it that results something

2. and should separate two different v-ing modifiers...
when we say IC1 , and IC2 then only it means IC1 and IC2 are independent
but when there is a list with common subject we can simply write sub X and Y
when there is a list with 3 or more in the list we need comma + and => x,y, and Z else X and Y



Thank you for proper explanation, I have one question about 2 different modifires.
in case of "overcompensating and growing" it is clear, but I have faced one question where two ajectives modifing the moun should be saparated by "comma" "," because they modify noun equally. ex: separate, required course.
so I am little confused when we can use "comma" and when "and" between modifiers?
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   20 Nov 2018, 22:31
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GKomoku wrote:
BukrsGmat wrote:
Darmody wrote:

same I crossed B because I thought growing had to modify overcompensate otherwise it does not make sense to have the verb "overcompensate" alone like that. Can somebody explain? And also would it be possible to explain what is exactly is wrong with E? Thx !


Let's Focus on B and E
Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regenerative ability, and if one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and growing an extra one or two.


B one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and
E they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating,

1 Usage of sometimes : meaning in E is changed, as if sometimes with the animal
Sometimes should come near what it is modifying...they replace it that results something

2. and should separate two different v-ing modifiers...
when we say IC1 , and IC2 then only it means IC1 and IC2 are independent
but when there is a list with common subject we can simply write sub X and Y
when there is a list with 3 or more in the list we need comma + and => x,y, and Z else X and Y



Thank you for proper explanation, I have one question about 2 different modifires.
in case of "overcompensating and growing" it is clear, but I have faced one question where two ajectives modifing the moun should be saparated by "comma" "," because they modify noun equally. ex: separate, required course.
so I am little confused when we can use "comma" and when "and" between modifiers?

Excellent question! The two constructions are interchangeable. In fact, when trying to determine whether we should separate two adjectives with a comma, a good test is whether the construction would make sense if the two adjectives were linked with "and." For example, if you were evaluating the sentence "the adorable, cuddly puppy is licking the adorable, cuddly baby." In this case, because "adorable and cuddly" would make sense, the use of the comma is appropriate. If you substitute an "and" in its place, the meaning would not change at all.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   28 Feb 2019, 01:16
In D and E, can't we say they is wrong as there is no antecedent of they. Starfish is singular and thus can't be the antecedent.


daagh wrote:
The tagging may include SV number agreement, and conjunction, which are also important things tested here. Starfish is treated as plural here as can be seen from the plural verb have in the non-underlined part

A one arm is lost it quickly replaces it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating and--- [color=#0000FF]it seems as if the plural starfish is pronouned by the first, singular it; in addition in an active voice sentence, the use of by is improper
[/color]
B one arm is lost it is quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating and ------- seems ok with the SV problem avoided altogether. Here the it should logically refer to the arm. correct choice

C they lose one arm they quickly replace it, sometimes by the animal overcompensating, -----use of by is improper in an active voice setting. It should be with the animal rather than by the animal; overcompensating, growing is improper co-ordination. There should be an and in between

D they lose one arm they are quickly replaced, with the animal sometimes overcompensating,’---use of they means that the starfish themselves are replaced; over compensating should be followed by and

E they lose one arm it is quickly replaced, sometimes with the animal overcompensating, --- in a passive voice we need to use by rather than with ; in addition overcompensating should be followed by and
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink] New post   28 Feb 2019, 01:22
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Hi Swati, the sentence uses starfish as plural.

How do we know?

Well the sentence drops a hint:

Starfish have a strong regenerative ability...
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Re: Starfish, with anywhere from five to eight arms, have a strong regener [#permalink]
28 Feb 2019, 01:22
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