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555-605 Level|   Grammatical/Rhetorical Construction|   Parallelism|                                 
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 10 Nov 2016, 11:56
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zoezhuyan
my curiosity is [prepositional phrase] which consists of prep + noun, for example:
1) I like the picture of my brother hanging one the wall. -- here , -ing form of verb "hanging" follows a prep phrase, can "hanging" modifies picture by jumping over the prep phrase "of my brother" rather than illogically modifies preceding noun "my brother" ?
2 ) The heavily barbed stinger of the honeybee stays where it is inserted, and results in the act of stinging causing the bee to sustain a fatal injury. -- here, , -ing form of verb "causing" follows a prep phrase as well, can "causing" modifies act by jumping over of stinging ?
both these two cases , -ing forms of verb follow prep phrases.

brief summary, based on the logical meaning,
1/ I am confused what will be modified by -ing form of verb modifier follows the structure [comma] + [noun]+[prep phrase] or [NO comma]+[noun]+[prep phrase], does the vital / non vital impact most ?
2/ if extend to other modifiers, such as -ed form of verb modifier ,comma which modifier, no comma which modifier, that clause modifier,

waiting for your reply.

thanks million.

have a wonderful day
>_~
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Dear zoezhuyan,

My friend, how are you? I hope life is treating you well. I'm happy to respond. :-)

My friend, you need to learn about vital noun modifiers. This is a BIG idea that you need to appreciate. Look at these two blog articles:
That vs. Which on the GMAT
GMAT Grammar: Vital Noun Modifiers
The idea of a vital noun modifier totally explains your example sentence #1.

Sentence #2 is an awkward sentence--it is the incorrect prompt from a GMAT Prep SC question. An incorrect answer choice is never a good model for correct grammar.

Now, in your questions, you are are asking for detailed rules about what a modifier modifies. The problem is: the action of modifiers is a logical process, not a grammatical process, so the same grammatical situation could have two completely patterns of modification. This is like trying to deduce patterns of personality from the letters in peoples names! In other words, you are looking at one order of information trying to make deductions about an entirely different order of information. The action of modifiers irreducibly involves logic and meaning, which are an entirely different order of information from that of grammar. We cannot hope to be successful on the GMAT SC unless we fully engage with logic and meaning.

For example:
(1) ...the picture of my brother hanging on the wall ...
(2) ...the house of my friend refurbishing his den ...
In (1), the modifier "jumps over" the vital noun modifier "of my brother" to modify "picture," the noun before prepositional phrase. In (2), the modifier modifies the noun it touches, "friend," the noun inside the prepositional phrase. Both have the grammatical structure [noun #1]{prepositional phrase][participle], and the participle modifiers different things depending on logic & meaning.

My friend, I will get to some of those other links as I have time. My Magoosh job doesn't allow me to spend all day on GC.

Does all this make sense?

Take very good care of yourself, my friend. :-)

Mike :-)
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 15 Nov 2016, 04:29
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mikemcgarry
My friend, I will get to some of those other links as I have time. My Magoosh job doesn't allow me to spend all day on GC.

Does all this make sense?

Take very good care of yourself, my friend. :-)

Mike :-)
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Hi mike,

I totally understand.
Although I am the student of Magoosh,
1/ I have no idea whether I can post GMATPrep question on Magoosh, and where to post if I can
2/ I know Magoosh tutors are busy, I am afraid my questions of OG and Magoosh are sunk through HELP bottom, or maybe my operation problem,
any hint to get quick reply on Magoosh ?

have a nice day
>_~
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 15 Nov 2016, 12:52
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zoezhuyan
Hi mike,

I totally understand.
Although I am the student of Magoosh,
1/ I have no idea whether I can post GMATPrep question on Magoosh, and where to post if I can
2/ I know Magoosh tutors are busy, I am afraid my questions of OG and Magoosh are sunk through HELP bottom, or maybe my operation problem,
any hint to get quick reply on Magoosh ?

have a nice day
>_~
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Dear zoezhuyan

My friend, I am happy to help. :-)

If you have paid for a Magoosh account, then you should be able to send a HELP ticket from any window in Magoosh, simply by clicking the "Help" tab. My understanding is that Magoosh will answer all Magoosh questions as well as all official questions, including GMAT Prep questions. It's also my understanding that the help tutors will respond to a ticket within a day or two. That's reasonably quick already.

Are you saying that you need replies faster than that? I am trying to understand what you are experiencing. Please be very specific in the description of your situation.

Have a good day,
Mike :-)
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 06 May 2018, 01:52
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souvik101990 GMATNinja

In option A, "that" is referring to "reaction". If thats the case, then "creating" will also refer to "reaction" and not "individual"

Can you let me know where I am going wrong?
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 06 May 2018, 08:51
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Although I have retired from posting explanations on the verbal forums, but WTH!

pikolo2510
souvik101990 GMATNinja

In option A, "that" is referring to "reaction". If thats the case, then "creating" will also refer to "reaction" and not "individual"

Can you let me know where I am going wrong?
Show more

Nah. Good point though. Think about these two sentence.

I bought the new iPhone from a retailer that has no headphone jack.

- it is pretty clear that in this sentence that the verb "has" is used for the noun iPhone and not the noun retailer. Most of the times GMAT will have sentences where modifiers set off by words such as which and that modify the closest proceeding noun, but in a few cases the noun has been separated by a small phrase as in this case from a retailer

However, if there are no modifiers at all the verb will invariable be acted by the noun proceeding it. For example,

I went to see her in the hospital feeling sorry. - WRONG

This might be okay in a conversational sense, but in formal writing, this does not work at all. The hospital is not really feeling anything (unless you are playing Resident Evil where hospitals are a living being that produce nurse-zombies, but we are not!)

I want to sit next to the girl wearing the dragon tattoo - The girl is the one wearing the fabled tattoo and not you.

General rule to remember - if there is an ING construction right after a noun (without a comma), the ING must refer to the noun, and for most of the cases on the GMAT it will be a wrong answer choice.
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 20 Jul 2018, 17:50
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How come "that" modify a plural noun reactions? Isn't the use of "those" appropriate here?
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 25 Aug 2018, 13:58
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Blackishmamba
How come "that" modify a plural noun reactions? Isn't the use of "those" appropriate here?
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Sorry, I'm late to the party here!

As others have mentioned, when "that" is used as a modifier, it can refer to either singular or plural nouns. This same discussion came up on this thread.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the word "that" can also behave as a (non-modifying) pronoun. If "that" simply operates as a pronoun, it is always singular; "those" would be the plural version. More on the GMAT's many uses of "that" in this article.

I hope this helps!
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 04 Apr 2019, 13:01
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Hello Everyone!

Let's tackle this question, one issue at a time, and narrow it down to the correct choice quickly! To get started, here is the original question with the major differences between the options highlighted in orange:

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.

(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological responses in turn

After taking a quick glance over the options, there are a lot of differences we can focus on. Here are just a couple to start:

1. creates / create / creating (subject-verb agreement)
2. placement of the phrase "in turn" (idioms)

Let's start off with #1 on our list: subject-verb agreement. To find out whether we need a singular or plural verb here, we need to ask ourselves, "WHAT is creating unconscious physiological responses?" Next, we need to look to the original sentence for clues:

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.

Now that we know the verb is tied to the plural subject "reactions," we need to make sure the options use plural verbs to match:

(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses (No verb issues, but let's save this one for later anyway)
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological responses in turn

We can eliminate options B & E because they don't use proper subject-verb agreement. Now that we have it narrowed down to only 3 options, let's move on to another issue on our list.

Let's focus now on the placement of the phrase "in turn." In English, we use this phrase to indicate cause-effect among a series of actions:

X causes Y, and Y, in turn, causes Z

If we look at the original sentence, we can get some clues as to what X, Y, and Z are in our idiom:

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.

X = lying
Y = emotional reactions
Z = unconscious physiological responses

Now that we know what to plug into our equation, let's see which options handle this idiom correctly. To make it easier to spot, we've included the rest of the phrase for you:

(A) lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses

X (lying) causes Y (emotional reactions), and Y (emotional reactions), in turn, causes Z (physiological responses) = CORRECT!

(C) lying produces emotional reactions in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses

X (lying) causes Y (emotional reactions), and Y (emotional reactions) causing, in turn, Z (physiological responses) = WRONG!

(D) lying produces emotional reactions in an individual to create, in turn, physiological responses that are unconscious

X (lying) causes Y (emotional reactions) and Y (emotional reactions) cause, in turn, Z (physiological responses) = WRONG!


There you have it - option A is the correct choice! It uses proper subject-verb agreement, and the idiom (X causes Y, and Y, in turn, causes Z) is written correctly!


Don't study for the GMAT. Train for it.
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 17 May 2019, 01:34
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What is that referring to in option A . Does not it refer to Individual.
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 19 May 2019, 18:42
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LoneSurvivor
What is that referring to in option A . Does not it refer to Individual.
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The that in option A refers to emotional reactions in an individual.

... emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses...

The GMAT is not very likely to use a that to refer to a person (we'd normally expect it to use a who), so that reduces some of the ambiguity in this case. Also, the verb create is plural, so that helps too (individual is singular).
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 20 May 2019, 16:19
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LoneSurvivor
What is that referring to in option A . Does not it refer to Individual.
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Hello LoneSurvivor!

In option A, the word "that" does NOT refer directly to an individual. In this case, it's being used as the first word of a modifier.

I hope that helps!
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 27 Jul 2019, 11:04
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Can someone please explain why E is incorrect when debating the meaning of the sentence rather than the who/which debate? If it's the individual, not the emotions, then we would use "who" rather than "that" to refer to the individual -- and clearly only E works. I don't understand why the individual is not the one producing the response. After all, it's the individual's actual physical body that is making the physiological response. Am I just interpreting this too literally?
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 27 Jul 2019, 19:04
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Can someone please explain why E is incorrect when debating the meaning of the sentence rather than the who/which debate? If it's the individual, not the emotions, then we would use "who" rather than "that" to refer to the individual -- and clearly only E works. I don't understand why the individual is not the one producing the response. After all, it's the individual's actual physical body that is making the physiological response. Am I just interpreting this too literally?
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It's the "in turn" that is important here:

X → Y, which in turn leads to Z

lying (produces) → emotional reactions in an individual → (that, in turn, create) unconscious physiological responses
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 04 Aug 2019, 06:02
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Hi! I had rejected A as it had a "," after that.

Can someone let me know the problem with this ?
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 04 Aug 2019, 18:08
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kunalbean
Hi! I had rejected A as it had a "," after that.

Can someone let me know the problem with this ?
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Hi kunalbean,

That comma is one of the two commas for the modifier in turn.
... Y that, in turn, create Z...

If we take the in turn out, we should take both those commas out as well.
1. ... Y that, in turn, create Z...

not
2. ... Y that, in turn, create Z...
or
3. ... Y that, in turn, create Z...
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 12 Feb 2020, 20:47
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hi GMATNinja,
why is answer choice C wrong?
I believe that creating can modify emotion reactions, and that's why i am not able to understand why exactly C is wrong?
I understand in choice A "that" clearly modifies emotion reaction as it is followed by a plural verb "create". so i am confused between A and C. I thought about C for a long time about why exactly C is wrong, but still couldn't find a satisfying answer. Please help on this one.

Thanks a lot.
you explanations are very helpful!!

Regards,
Kshitij Garg
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 01 Mar 2020, 09:11
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kshitijgarg
hi GMATNinja,
why is answer choice C wrong?
I believe that creating can modify emotion reactions, and that's why i am not able to understand why exactly C is wrong?
I understand in choice A "that" clearly modifies emotion reaction as it is followed by a plural verb "create". so i am confused between A and C. I thought about C for a long time about why exactly C is wrong, but still couldn't find a satisfying answer. Please help on this one.

Thanks a lot.
you explanations are very helpful!!

Regards,
Kshitij Garg
Show more
Excellent question! As is often the case, this question comes down to clarity and meaning. Take another look at (A):

    "The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses."

As you mentioned, the phrase "that...create" must modify a plural noun because "create" is a plural verb. The closest plural noun is "emotional reactions." This makes perfect sense and there's no ambiguity. (Also, on the GMAT, "that" would probably never be used to modify an "individual." Generally, the test seems to avoid using "that" to modify a person, though it's probably not WRONG -- and there's some debate about this among weirdos who discuss such things for a living. ;) )

Now contrast this with (C):

    "The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses."

Now it sounds as though it's the individual who's creating the unconscious responses. But if the responses are unconscious, then how would the individual be able to do this? Now we have an illogical meaning.

If (A) is crystal clear and (C) is illogical, (A) wins.

I hope that helps!
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 22 Apr 2020, 18:49
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kshitijgarg
hi GMATNinja,
why is answer choice C wrong?
I believe that creating can modify emotion reactions, and that's why i am not able to understand why exactly C is wrong?
I understand in choice A "that" clearly modifies emotion reaction as it is followed by a plural verb "create". so i am confused between A and C. I thought about C for a long time about why exactly C is wrong, but still couldn't find a satisfying answer. Please help on this one.

Thanks a lot.
you explanations are very helpful!!

Regards,
Kshitij Garg
Excellent question! As is often the case, this question comes down to clarity and meaning. Take another look at (A):

    "The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses."


GMATNinja @MikeMc

As you mentioned, the phrase "that...create" must modify a plural noun because "create" is a plural verb. The closest plural noun is "emotional reactions." This makes perfect sense and there's no ambiguity. (Also, on the GMAT, "that" would probably never be used to modify an "individual." Generally, the test seems to avoid using "that" to modify a person, though it's probably not WRONG -- and there's some debate about this among weirdos who discuss such things for a living. ;) )

Now contrast this with (C):

    "The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses."

Now it sounds as though it's the individual who's creating the unconscious responses. But if the responses are unconscious, then how would the individual be able to do this? Now we have an illogical meaning.

If (A) is crystal clear and (C) is illogical, (A) wins.

I hope that helps!
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Hi GMATNinja and mikemcgarry ,

First of all, I appreciate all the effort that you guys have put in to answer each and every query over the years. I have been on the forum for only few weeks now but I have learnt so so much! So thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Coming to this important topic of Present Participle and Modifier touch rule.

I have clarity about how "which or then" can refer to a noun followed by a prepositional phrase: For eg: I like the book on the table, which is written by Mike. Here which refers to the book because "which" can jump to "book" and "on the table" is denoting extra information about the book.

Similarily, can't present participle modifiers also follow the same behavior. As per Mike's post,

This sentence is correct: I like the picture of my brother hanging one the wall. Here "hanging" refers back to the picture and not the brother because "of my brother" is vital noun modifier.

However why can't be the same in this case C) (Choice A was my first preference but I still want to make sure why C is wrong).

1) The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.

2) The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses


In both the cases, "in an individual" is a vital noun modifier (modifying emotional reactions)

so if 1) is right, then by the same logic 2) should be right (referrring back to the "hanging" example earlier)

Also, It's been mentioned by E-GMAT as that present participle as well as past participle both can modify noun as well as "NOUN PHRASES" and "emotional reactions in an individual" is a noun phrase if I am not mistaken.

I would appreciate if you could answer this.

Also tagging few other people in case anyone can guide me here:

MichaelS sayantanc2k egmat daagh generis
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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 23 Apr 2020, 07:37
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Here's my explanation of this classic exercise. It's a tough question, but very illustrative of noun modifiers and the famous "touch rule".





Hope it helps!


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The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produce 25 Apr 2020, 08:20
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Hi GMATNinja and mikemcgarry ,

First of all, I appreciate all the effort that you guys have put in to answer each and every query over the years. I have been on the forum for only few weeks now but I have learnt so so much! So thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Coming to this important topic of Present Participle and Modifier touch rule.

I have clarity about how "which or then" can refer to a noun followed by a prepositional phrase: For eg: I like the book on the table, which is written by Mike. Here which refers to the book because "which" can jump to "book" and "on the table" is denoting extra information about the book.

Similarily, can't present participle modifiers also follow the same behavior. As per Mike's post,

This sentence is correct: I like the picture of my brother hanging one the wall. Here "hanging" refers back to the picture and not the brother because "of my brother" is vital noun modifier.

However why can't be the same in this case C) (Choice A was my first preference but I still want to make sure why C is wrong).

1) The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses.

2) The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses


In both the cases, "in an individual" is a vital noun modifier (modifying emotional reactions)

so if 1) is right, then by the same logic 2) should be right (referrring back to the "hanging" example earlier)

Also, It's been mentioned by E-GMAT as that present participle as well as past participle both can modify noun as well as "NOUN PHRASES" and "emotional reactions in an individual" is a noun phrase if I am not mistaken.

I would appreciate if you could answer this.

Also tagging few other people in case anyone can guide me here:

MichaelS sayantanc2k egmat daagh generis
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Is it possible for "creating" to modify "emotional reactions" in choice (C)? Sure.. but it's also possible for "creating" to modify "individuals" or perhaps even the entire preceding clause ("lying produces"). So what is "creating" actually supposed to modify here??

In choice (A), however, we don't have that ambiguity. As explained in this post, the phrase "that... create" must modify a plural noun because "create" is a plural verb. The closest plural noun is "emotional reactions." This makes perfect sense and there's no ambiguity.

You might have seen this in my other posts, but please remember that your job is to select the BEST answer choice out of the five available options, not to look at each choice in a bubble and label it "right" or "wrong" in absolute terms. So instead of worrying about what makes (C) wrong, think about what makes (A) the better choice.

I hope that helps!
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