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adkikani
Hi GMATNinja,

Sometimes that is not followed by complete verb and is used in comparison to specify an entity too.
Any views on this OG eg:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/scientists-h ... 05348.html

Here THAT is very much required since its absence distorts comparison.
I'm not 100% sure that I understand your question correctly in this case, but the two uses of "that" in the question in that link are just versions of #1 and #3. Sure, I would agree that you very much need the word "that" to make sense of the comparison(s), but "that" still either subordinates a clause or functions as a demonstrative pronoun, depending on which "that" you're looking at in the OA. Feel free to tag me in that thread if you have more questions about that particular example.

Quote:
When used as demonstrative pronoun, as in your post, it can not be followed by verb / clause.
Sure, you could follow a demonstrative pronoun ("that" or "those") with a verb, as long as the referent and the meaning make sense:

    The noodles sold in Bangkok are tastier than those sold in Denver. --> pronoun "those" is followed by verb "sold", and it makes perfect sense in this case
    The corn grown in Iowa contains higher amounts of starch than that grown in Nova Scotia. --> pronoun "that" is followed by verb "grown"... and we could argue that it sounds a little bit funny, but it's completely fine

Here's an official example: https://gmatclub.com/forum/700-lacking- ... 96705.html

Quote:
However more usage in GMAT is of that as relative pronoun must be followed by verb, making THAT ... a dependent clause.
Is this usage correct?

I'm not quite sure what you mean with this part. I think you're talking about either usage #3 or #4 from the original article? In most of these cases, the relative pronoun would indeed be followed by a verb, but you'd have a subordinate clause, not a dependent clause. But the GMAT isn't going to ask you to define the difference between dependent and subordinate clauses, fortunately! :-D
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Hi GMATNinja

Do the pronoun modifier with too behave similar to that / which
meaning modifying preceding clause / noun?

Can you help subtle difference between with vs which as in this OG Q
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Hey GMATNinja

I found a GMATPrep question in which "that" is used as a modifier and jumps over the "passive verb" . According to your article, "that" won't jump over verbs to modify some noun. Is this an exception to the rule?

https://gmatclub.com/forum/after-more-t ... 86558.html
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pikolo2510

I am not an expert but let me add my two cents.

The reason why THAT jumps over the verb is being tested to modify a new type of jet engine is that this relative pronoun modifier
can not be placed anywhere else in the context of the sentence. I know you might love if THAT
is placed exactly next to subject a new type of jet engine
but then the verb will be too far from subject which is not appreciated by GMAT.

Let me know if this helps!
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please clarify whether "that" can be dropped from this sentence...

It is hard work needed for success.

It is hard work that is needed for success.

Please clarify
Hm, I'm not sure if you'll like my answer, since I'm about to change your question a little bit. :)

If I had to choose between those two sentences, I would definitely pick the second one. But even the second one is unnecessarily wordy and indirect, and there's really no need for the "it is" at the beginning of the sentence. I'd prefer the following, and so would the GMAT: "Hard work is needed for success." So no need for the "it is" or the "that" at all.

I'm not sure if I really answered the heart of your question, but I hope that helped a little bit!
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/obituaries/stephen-hawking-dead.html

That work led to a turning point in modern physics, playing itself out in the closing months of 1973 on the walls of his brain when Dr. Hawking set out to apply quantum theory, the weird laws that govern subatomic reality, to black holes.

That calculation, in a thesis published in 1974 in the journal Nature under the title “Black Hole Explosions?,” is hailed by scientists as the first great landmark in the struggle to find a single theory of nature — to connect gravity and quantum mechanics, those warring descriptions of the large and the small, to explain a universe that seems stranger than anybody had thought.

Hi GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo, If "that" is the first word of the sentence, it is a pronoun, article or conjunction?
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hazelnut
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/obituaries/stephen-hawking-dead.html

That work led to a turning point in modern physics, playing itself out in the closing months of 1973 on the walls of his brain when Dr. Hawking set out to apply quantum theory, the weird laws that govern subatomic reality, to black holes.

That calculation, in a thesis published in 1974 in the journal Nature under the title “Black Hole Explosions?,” is hailed by scientists as the first great landmark in the struggle to find a single theory of nature — to connect gravity and quantum mechanics, those warring descriptions of the large and the small, to explain a universe that seems stranger than anybody had thought.

Hi GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo, If "that" is the first word of the sentence, it is a pronoun, article or conjunction?

In my opinion the opening THAT is an article . GMATNinja , GMATNinjaTwo -- Please confirm .


https://gmatclub.com/forum/after-more-t ... 86558.html
In the below OA , that is being used a modifier and jumps over phrase(prep phrase and verb) "of jet engine is being tested". Can that when used a modifier jump over verb as well ?
1. After more than four decades of research and development, a new type of jet engine is being tested that could eventually propel aircraft anywhere in the world within two hours or help boost cargoes into space at significantly lower costs than current methods permit.

Another example -
2. Not one of the potential investors is expected to make an offer to buy First Interstate Bank until a merger agreement is signed that includes a provision for penalties if the deal were not to be concluded.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/not-one-of-t ... 13288.html

AjiteshArun , GMATNinja , mikemcgarry , egmat , sayantanc2k, DmitryFarber , MagooshExpert , daagh ,ccooley other experts- please help
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hazelnut
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/obituaries/stephen-hawking-dead.html

That work led to a turning point in modern physics, playing itself out in the closing months of 1973 on the walls of his brain when Dr. Hawking set out to apply quantum theory, the weird laws that govern subatomic reality, to black holes.

That calculation, in a thesis published in 1974 in the journal Nature under the title “Black Hole Explosions?,” is hailed by scientists as the first great landmark in the struggle to find a single theory of nature — to connect gravity and quantum mechanics, those warring descriptions of the large and the small, to explain a universe that seems stranger than anybody had thought.

Hi GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo, If "that" is the first word of the sentence, it is a pronoun, article or conjunction?
In both cases above, "that" is an article. Basically, "that" is just clarifying that we're talking about "the specific work mentioned earlier" or "that specific calculation mentioned earlier." See usage #2 from the original post.

Skywalker18
https://gmatclub.com/forum/after-more-than-four-decades-of-research-and-development-a-new-type-o-86558.html
In the below OA , that is being used a modifier and jumps over phrase(prep phrase and verb) "of jet engine is being tested". Can that when used a modifier jump over verb as well ?
After more than four decades of research and development, a new type of jet engine is being tested that could eventually propel aircraft anywhere in the world within two hours or help boost cargoes into space at significantly lower costs than current methods permit.
You're absolutely right, Skywalker18: this is one of the rare exceptions when a "that" modifier jumps over a verb phrase. I can only think of one similar example on official questions, and I think that one involves a "which." These cases are pretty rare... but I'm admittedly guilty of oversimplification in the original article. :oops:

In this particular case, notice that there really isn't a good way to rearrange the sentence so that the modifier "touches" the jet engine. Here's what happens if we put the modifier first:

    "...a new type of jet engine that could eventually propel aircraft anywhere in the world within two hours or help boost cargoes into space at significantly lower costs than current methods permit is being tested."

Now the verb phrase ("is being tested") appears really, really far away from the subject ("a new type of jet engine"), and it's legitimately kind of confusing now. Because that verb phrase is short, it's clearer to put "is being tested" first, and then insert the (really really long!) noun modifier afterward.

I hope this helps!
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Skywalker18
In my opinion the opening THAT is an article . GMATNinja , GMATNinjaTwo -- Please confirm .
I'm not sure why GMATNinja is referring to that as an article. In the examples in which that is said to be an article, that is actually something called a determiner.

Skywalker18
https://gmatclub.com/forum/after-more-than-four-decades-of-research-and-development-a-new-type-o-86558.html
In the below OA , that is being used a modifier and jumps over phrase(prep phrase and verb) "of jet engine is being tested". Can that when used a modifier jump over verb as well ?
After more than four decades of research and development, a new type of jet engine is being tested that could eventually propel aircraft anywhere in the world within two hours or help boost cargoes into space at significantly lower costs than current methods permit.
Yes, it can, especially with a that (this process becomes harder with which). Patterns to look out for:

1. There is an additional noun that the relative pronoun could refer to.
In 1974, a message was sent that included basic information about humanity.
In 1974, a message was sent to the Hercules Globular Cluster that included basic information about humanity.

The first sentence is fine. The second is also reasonably good, but check the other options: maybe there is another option that does not open the sentence up to misinterpretation (we're not sure whether it was the message or the Cluster that included the information).

2. If the additional noun takes a different relative pronoun.
An AI has been created that can beat humans at the game of Go.
An AI has been created by scientists that can beat humans at the game of Go.

Here there is no confusion at all, as the that cannot refer to scientists (the GMAT doesn't like using that for people).

3. There is already another that in the construction.
A message that was created by scientists was sent that included basic information about humanity.

This one is not correct.

4. The modifier is non-restrictive.
The Taj Mahal, which was built by order of Shah Jahan...

It will be very hard, if not impossible, to shift the which... to the other side of whichever verb comes next. That's not to say that a which cannot be shifted. It's just not that easy.
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AjiteshArun
I'm not sure why GMATNinja is referring to that as an article. In the examples in which that is said to be an article, that is actually something called a determiner.
That's true! And if we want to get super-geeky about the grammar: "that" and "this" are technically demonstratives, which are a type of determiner. Articles (such as "a" or "an" or "the") are also a type of determiner.

So you're right: technically speaking, "that" is NOT an article. But the reason I call them articles is that I don't see much pedagogical value -- at least for GMAT purposes -- in drawing a distinction among demonstratives and articles and determiners. The function is broadly similar: all of those things introduce nouns. And I find that most of my students have some intuition for what an article is, but their eyeballs generally start dissolving if I talk about demonstratives and determiners. (And that's especially true here in the U.S., where we've mostly abandoned grammar education.) If those students grasp the idea that "that" is just introducing a noun (i.e., it isn't so far off from the function of an article), that's good enough, given the way these things appear on the GMAT.

So I'm absolutely guilty of oversimplifying in an effort to keep non-technical test-takers headed in the right direction. The pedagogical choice I make certainly isn't the right choice for everybody -- some GMAT test-takers (and many of the GMAT verbal experts on this site!) LOVE LOVE LOVE the precise technical details of grammar -- but for folks who struggle with that stuff, I'm OK with fudging some grammar labels. :)
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AjiteshArun
Skywalker18
In my opinion the opening THAT is an article . GMATNinja , GMATNinjaTwo -- Please confirm .
I'm not sure why GMATNinja is referring to that as an article. In the examples in which that is said to be an article, that is actually something called a determiner.

Skywalker18
https://gmatclub.com/forum/after-more-than-four-decades-of-research-and-development-a-new-type-o-86558.html
In the below OA , that is being used a modifier and jumps over phrase(prep phrase and verb) "of jet engine is being tested". Can that when used a modifier jump over verb as well ?
After more than four decades of research and development, a new type of jet engine is being tested that could eventually propel aircraft anywhere in the world within two hours or help boost cargoes into space at significantly lower costs than current methods permit.
Yes, it can, especially with a that (this process becomes harder with which). Patterns to look out for:

1. There is an additional noun that the relative pronoun could refer to.
In 1974, a message was sent that included basic information about humanity.
In 1974, a message was sent to the Hercules Globular Cluster that included basic information about humanity.

The first sentence is fine. The second is also reasonably good, but check the other options: maybe there is another option that does not open the sentence up to misinterpretation (we're not sure whether it was the message or the Cluster that included the information).

2. If the additional noun takes a different relative pronoun.
An AI has been created that can beat humans at the game of Go.
An AI has been created by scientists that can beat humans at the game of Go.

Here there is no confusion at all, as the that cannot refer to scientists (the GMAT doesn't like using that for people).

3. There is already another that in the construction.
A message that was created by scientists was sent that included basic information about humanity.

This one is not correct.

4. The modifier is non-restrictive.
The Taj Mahal, which was built by order of Shah Jahan...

It will be very hard, if not impossible, to shift the which... to the other side of whichever verb comes next. That's not to say that a which cannot be shifted. It's just not that easy.

1.A message that was created by scientists was sent that included basic information about humanity. -- In this case, both instances of "that" modify message and thus is incorrect?
What about the scenario when we have multiple instances of that in a sentence, though each instance has a different function -- one is used as a subordinator and the other is used as a modifier.
Is such a use acceptable on the GMAT?

2.a. An AI has been created by scientists that can beat humans at the game of Go.
b. An AI that can beat humans at the game of Go has been created by scientists.
c. An AI , which can beat humans at the game of Go , has been created by scientists.
d. An AI has been created by scientists, which can beat humans at the game of Go. - Incorrect as the modified entity AI is too far away from which

Is 2b better than 2a ?
Also in 2c , it seems that meaning of the sentence is changed as which is non-essential modifier -- the part between the commas can be omitted without any change in meaning . So 2c talks about AI in general ?

AjiteshArun , GMATNinja , egmat , sayantanc2k , DmitryFarber , MagooshExpert , RonPurewal , mikemcgarry -- please enlighten
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1.A message that was created by scientists was sent that included basic information about humanity. -- In this case, both instances of "that" modify message and thus is incorrect?
Using two thats with one noun is okay. But here, the sentence is just super awkward. It would be far better (1) to move both thats to one side and put an and between them. Or perhaps (2) take one of the thats out.

(1) A message was sent that was created by scientists and that included basic information about humanity.
(1) A message that was created by scientists and that included basic information about humanity was sent.

(2) A message that was created by scientists included basic information about humanity.

The meaning has changed in the last one. Generally, we should also check whether the option we're about to mark provides the right meaning.

Skywalker18
What about the scenario when we have multiple instances of that in a sentence, though each instance has a different function -- one is used as a subordinator and the other is used as a modifier.
Is such a use acceptable on the GMAT?
This is going to depend on the option in front of you. If there is a particular sentence you're thinking about, put it down here so that others can also evaluate it (when taking calls based on the awkwardness of a construction, it's really good to have multiple opinions).

Skywalker18
2.a. An AI has been created by scientists that can beat humans at the game of Go.
b. An AI that can beat humans at the game of Go has been created by scientists.

Is 2b better than 2a ?
Yes. The second is much easier to understand and does not need us to assume that that cannot refer to people (a rule that not everyone outside the GMAT follows).

Skywalker18
c. An AI , which can beat humans at the game of Go , has been created by scientists.

Also in 2c , it seems that meaning of the sentence is changed as which is non-essential modifier -- the part between the commas can be omitted without any change in meaning . So 2c talks about AI in general ?
Yes. We can read the sentence as an AI has been created by scientists. The actual intention of the sentence is to say that a particular type of AI has been created.
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hazelnut
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/obituaries/stephen-hawking-dead.html

That work led to a turning point in modern physics, playing itself out in the closing months of 1973 on the walls of his brain when Dr. Hawking set out to apply quantum theory, the weird laws that govern subatomic reality, to black holes.

That calculation, in a thesis published in 1974 in the journal Nature under the title “Black Hole Explosions?,” is hailed by scientists as the first great landmark in the struggle to find a single theory of nature — to connect gravity and quantum mechanics, those warring descriptions of the large and the small, to explain a universe that seems stranger than anybody had thought.

Hi GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo, If "that" is the first word of the sentence, it is a pronoun, article or conjunction?

Similar SC from OG : https://gmatclub.com/forum/that-educators-have-not-anticipated-the-impact-of-microcomputer-65988.html#p101342
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Scientists have recently found evidence that black holes—regions of space in which matter is so concentrated and the pull of gravity so powerful that nothing, not even light, can emerge from them—probably exist at the core of nearly all galaxies and that the mass of each black hole is proportional to that of its host galaxy.
Quote:
Scientists have recently found evidence that black holes probably exist at the core of nearly all galaxies and that the mass of each black hole is proportional to that of its host galaxy.
Here "that" starts a subordinate clause.
Quote:
Scientists have recently found evidence that black holes probably exist at the core of nearly all galaxies and that the mass of each black hole is proportional to that of its host galaxy.
Here also "that" starts a subordinate clause.
Quote:
Scientists have recently found evidence that black holes probably exist at the core of nearly all galaxies and that the mass of each black hole is proportional to that of its host galaxy.
Here "that" acts as a pronoun for "the mass"
Quote:
regions of space in which matter is so concentrated and the pull of gravity so powerful that nothing, not even light, can emerge from them
Here "that" starts a subordinate clause.

GMATNinja
Am i making sense here?
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I have a doubt regarding the "number" of "that". It sometimes addresses a plural entity and sometimes a singular entity.
Case 1 :
Created in 1945 to reduce poverty and stabilize foreign currency markets, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund have, according to some critics, continually struggled as they try to meet the expectations of their major shareholders—a group comprising many of the world’s rich nations—while neglecting that of their intended beneficiaries in the developing world
Here "that of" is wrong because there are no singular nouns that it can refer to, hence its wrong here.
Why can't it refer to "expectations" (a plural entity)

Case 2: Charlotte Perkins Gilman, a late nineteenth-century feminist, called for urban apartment houses that included child-care facilities and for clustered suburban houses with communal eating and social facilities
Here "that" refers to houses (plural) and is considered correct.

So why is there such a difference in above cases ? Is it because in case 2 "that" acts as a modifier as explained in point 4 (as per the above post)
Case 1 : from OG
Case 2 : from MGMAT
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adkikani
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Raksat

Here are my two cents.

Case 1: When that acts as a noun modifier, it can refer to singular and plural nouns.

Case 2: When that acts a pronoun, it can refer only to singular nouns.

Quote:
Created in 1945 to reduce poverty and stabilize foreign currency markets, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund have, according to some critics, continually struggled as they try to meet the expectations of their major shareholders—a group comprising many of the world’s rich nations—while neglecting that of their intended beneficiaries in the developing world

Quote:
Here "that of" is wrong because there are no singular nouns that it can refer to, hence its wrong here.
Why can't it refer to "expectations" (a plural entity)

that refers to expectations (since it falls in case 1)

See this example for details.

Hope this helps.
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thank you for this post.

Quote:
son of a gun

Can 'who' follow after, 'son of a gun'?

Also is it okay to use 'that' to refer to a person?
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